Zionism and Nazism : Spot the Difference

 Posted by on January 25, 2008  Add comments
Jan 252008

Suppose you conquer a country through violence, ethnic cleansing and destruction of villages.

And suppose you drive out a peaceful people so that you can steal their homes and their farms.

And suppose you herd them together into a tiny strip of land, causing one of the highest population densities in the world.

And suppose you force them to live in conditions of poverty, filth and deprivation, where open sewers run in the streets.

And suppose you build a gigantic wall around these people to keep them in.

And suppose you guard this wall with machine-gun towers.

And suppose you routinely bomb these people.

And suppose you cut off all electricity.

And suppose you cut off all food supplies.

And suppose, when they resist, you call them terrorists.

What would you call this place where 1.5 million people are concentrated in appalling conditions under armed guard?

I’d call it a concentration camp, but you might call it the Gaza Strip.  Of course, you might also call it a ghetto.

And what would you call the people who caused this?

I’d call them Nazis, but you’d probably call them Israelis.

It’s hard to tell the two apart these days.


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    Totally agree Bock but Israel have the backing of the good ol US of A so you’re not supposed to say this out load..
    Isnt it funny how the Isreali govt learned absolutely nothing from the Holocoust?

    Anyway ,i am sure Ian O’Doherty will be on for a comment on this ,if you read his column.which in fairness can be fairly amusing the odd time,the one thing i disagree with him on is his America and Israel good – Islam Bad.. arguement that is sounding like a broken record now..


    Spot on Bock I couldn’t agree more. What the IDF are doing is nothing short of genocide. That is if course if your view of genocide is in line with that of the Geneva Convention and not of course the Israeli view of genocide. As BigPhil said they wouldn’t and couldn’t get away with it if it wasn’t for US support. If you haven’t already done so I would suggest reading David Hirst’s excellent book The Gun and The Olive Branch.


    A few months ago, the cash-strapped US gave 30 billion dollars.

    30 BILLION! I guess these are the rewards you get when you blatantly ignore the ’67 boundaries.

    I agree Israel has a right to its state but in matter of claiming land illegally it is definitely the worst aggressor. No wonder every other country in the Middle east Suspects our motives out there.


    I never understood why we keep giving money to Israel. Shouldn’t Germany be paying for Israel’s upkeep? Just a thought…


    I know who shouldn’t be paying for it: the Palestinians whose families were kicked off their land and out of their houses to make room for the new Israel.


    You are obviously Anti-Semitic ;-)

    Just thought I’d get that one out of the way.


    Oh, I expect they’ll resort to that as well. But of course, if I were anti-Semitic, I’d have to hate Palestinians as well as Israelis.

    And then there’s the problem of the non-Semitic Israelis …

    … and the anti-Zionist Jews …

    … and the Muslim Israelis …

    … and the Russian Neo-Nazi Israelis.

    Is there no end to it?


    We could always blame the English.


    Spot on, Bock. Well said


    Britain agreed we could have 26 counties – they’d keep 6. Grand – only a few still whine about that.

    Now imagine if a few years later they decided they’d have Dublin too. It had a good port. Then they took back Wicklow because they wanted some mountains. Kildare to run their horses in.

    Then Limerick, Clare and Galway to have a western seaboard.

    There would have been outrage from the US. But isn’t that exactly what Israel did and not a peep?


    Too easy Bock, too easy. I have no love for any motherfucks with guns and helicopters and fancy american jets, none at all. But what happened Leon Uris and Exodus and the kibbutz and the baddie Egyptians. What the fuck happened there, and I invested a huge amount of my teenage lusting after those gun toting Israeli gals, sabras (I think).

    Fuck, history, Balfor gave the holocaust survivors something that didn’t belong to them, but they understood it to be the promised land. And then what, what fucking happened next.

    I worked with an Israeli company some time back and they were the most contrary shower of fucks I ever dealt with. But, what about Exodus, what about the Holocaust, What about those big thighed sabras.

    What about our guilt, you’re forgetting that.

    The motherfucks with the gun-ships say it’s their land just like we say the six above are ours, or Nelson said it was his Africa, or the Catalans talk about that part of Spain, and it goes on and on and fucking on.

    Too easy Bock.


    Yeah? So what did the Palestinians do to deserve their eviction?


    Kick the next one down the chain, isn’t that the general rule of human oppression. It is rich that they commit atrocities and then have the gall to accuse the EU of being Anti-Semitic simply because they criticise them for lay illegal cluster bombs. Anti Israeli policy and military perhaps, not Anti-Semitic. I still have that image in my mind from the newspaper depicting israeli children writing messages on the shells of rockets, messages for Lebanese children. Who teaches their kids to do that? That said I reckon there is a wealth of truely decent people in Israel, take the Refuseniks for example.


    Absolutely nothing Bock, absolutely fucking nothing.

    They are today’s 100% victims. But when we fuck with things, whenever we fuck with things, we set the madness in motion.

    I also think you are 100% accurate, but there’s an old women living in Jerusalem who believes she is 100% right too.

    Everyone has their story.

    But what about those sabras?


    I prefer Gadaffi’s girls.


    I think it was PJ O’Rourke who said the Israeli were the people who took their manners from the Germans. I’ve always viewed the Israel body politic as being a bit like that of a rape victim. What was done to them was appalling but it doesn’t justify them taking a scissors to the next bloke they come across.


    Hey Dan,

    When and why will it stop ?


    Well…last time I checked, most Palestinians weren’t Jewish.

    Ironic that Gaza more and more resembles a concentration camp.


    Eliza: I’m sure you’re well aware that concentration camps existed long before the Nazis. In fact, you’d have to look to Winston Churchill’s involvement in the Boer War if you wanted to see the first fully-evolved implementation of the concept.


    Hmmm….a bit of a stretch I think.

    While I agree that the Israelis need to cop themselves on a bit comparing them to Nazis is a bit much.

    It’s not like there was rocket fire raining down on Germany.

    It’s not like Germany was surrounded by hostile Jewish states.

    It’s not like there was a Jewish state bordering a concentration camp that had it’s very own border wall to keep the riff-raff out.

    Oh..and if Hamas refuses to believe in the existence of the State of Israel who exactly is oppressing the Palestinians then?

    None of the above are excuses for Israeli excesses but the biggest problem for the Palestinians has always been their intercine warfare.


    “Yeah? So what did the Palestinians do to deserve their eviction?”

    They dared think and believe differently same as all the other times a people were forcibly moved from their lands and herded into overcrowded and squalled conditions (slaughtered?). But what can you say about a population of crazed religious fanatics with an average emotional age of 15 that have basically been fighting over the same territory since well before the time a man was hung on a cross for believing differently?


    Yes Bock, you’re quite right. It’s my American association – concentration camps = Nazi’s, even though we had them here ourselves for the Japanese.

    I mean, I must just be really moderate, but I don’t get scrapping over a piece of land because of some farcical religious bs


    Kirk: I’m not quite following you. Are you saying that the Palestinians are crazed religious fanatics?

    Eliza: Indeed. The camp at Manzanar springs to mind.


    I give this post a week before the first Mossad-funded poster arrives.


    Well said, Bock.
    (I’m often suprised we have so much in common, me bein’ a Dubliner and all. It beats Banagher.)


    Guantanamo Bay !


    Nora: Indeed. It isn’t unusual to feel that way.

    Most Dubliners are surprised to learn that real human beings exist in the rest of the country.


    bock all you need to do these days to be justified in any form of anialation is to say its part of the war on terrorism but who are the real terrorists?


    LCS: I’m guessing you meant “annihilation”.

    There are all sorts of terrorists. Governments engage in terrorism, but so do ad hoc political groupings and religious zealots.

    Saying “War On Terrorism” is as meaningless as saying “War on Cookery”.


    Like every thing in history we categorize groups into good guys and bad guys, black and white. It just makes things easy. The Palestinians are there own worst enemy. In the late 19th and early 20th century, the wealthy Palestinian land owners could not sell there land fast enough to Jewish settlers from Russia. Their was massive amounts of money for selling desert worth nothing. The Israelis got a foot hold in the Middle East and they have not been able to shift them since.


    The barriers themselves consist of iron, brick, and steel walls up to 25 feet high, topped with metal netting. Some have gates in them occasionally manned by police, which allow passage by day, and which are closed at night. The first barriers were constructed in the early 1970s. Originally few in number, they have multiplied over the years, from 18 in the early 1990s to 40 today; in total they stretch over 13 miles. Most are located in Belfast.

    * The United States is building a fence to keep out illegal Mexican immigrants.
    * Spain built a fence, with European Union funding, to separate its enclaves of Ceuta and Melilla from Morocco to prevent poor people from sub-Saharan Africa from entering Europe.
    * India constructed a 460-mile barrier in Kashmir to halt infiltrations supported by Pakistan.
    * Saudi Arabia built a 60-mile barrier along an undefined border zone with Yemen to halt arms smuggling of weaponry and announced plans in 2006 to build a 500-mile fence along its border with Iraq.
    * Turkey built a barrier in the southern province of Alexandretta, which was formerly in Syria and is an area that Syria claims as its own..
    * In Cyprus, the UN sponsored a security fence reinforcing the island’s de facto partition.


    Go Bock! Why don’t you get the Wolfe Tones and get a few buckets for the donations and we’ll go raise some money for rockets for Hamas? Good old you. You go keeping reason and truth and reality out of it – because if you don’t it might snowball and some Hamas guy will be opening an Ikea in Gaza with some former Uzi carrier grinning alongside him.. No, leave reason and truth and balance out of it – let them all suffer at least as long as poor old us did!


    Roisin, I was wondering when some stooge would come out with the standard mantra: everyone who criticises the Israelis is a terrorist.



    If Roisin said that why did you edit it out. She is absolutely correct. God I remember How naively I fell in line with the rest of pseudo liberal opinion and argued in support of the Palestinians. I don’t know how many Macdonalds were bombed before I finally got a bit of sense. No – the Palestinians said goodbye to any humanity when they opted for a war of deliberately killing children. They chose the path of religious insanity – and are intent in pursuing it. Their spokesmen and leaders are slithery types who prey on their own people. I would not say nor has Roisin – that everybody who criticises Israel is a terrorist. what I do say is that everyone who supports Hamas is supporting a vicious terrorist organisation.


    Aidan: Nothing Roisin said was edited out.

    And this post isn’t about Hamas, as you well know.

    Your next point please?


    Then what stooge said this?
    “everyone who criticises the Israelis is a terrorist”


    Aidan, my concern is with the innocent civilians of Gaza. If you can’t stomach that idea, I can’t help you.


    I have no problem with anybody’s concern with innocent civilians. Just don’t be selective in your concern.
    My major problem is the methods used by the Palestinians against Israel. The use of suiicide bombers to deliberately target civilians in discos restaurants buses – anywhere really, and latterly (since the wall effectively stopped the former) the use of rockets for the same purpose, just sickens me and I feel has lost them a lot of former sympathisers (including as I said – myself).
    Bock this is one of the (few) issues I don’t broadlly share your opinions.

    They hide like cowards behind women and children and expect the Israelis to do nothing in response. Sorry Bock but I just don’t buy into that stuff any more.


    Aidan: “Don’t be selective”

    Are you instructing me to mention Israeli civilians every time I write about Palestinian civilians?



    The future and well-being of all in Gaza, innocent and guilty, is welded to the future and well-being of all in Israel, innocent and guilty. Casting one as helpless victims and the other as Nazis is the theme song of everyone from Gadaffi to Ahmadinejad. It is an opinion that many Irish people share without sometimes seeming to know or care that it is an opinion that contributes to prolonging the misery of the very people they are hoping to champion.
    Judging from your posts on other subjects, Bock, I would not have taken you for someone who would think in such a way. I wish I had initially responded in a more measured way. The complexities of the situation are frigging mind-boggling and that one-sided post of yours pushed my buttons and I didn’t respond in as measured a way as I should.
    As someone who lived in that region and as a mother, I know that each day begins with the same question in the minds of every Palestinian and every Israeli mother: Will my child survive this day? And for so many (and yes, I know, more on the Palestinian side than the Israeli side) the answer is “No.” Someday, maybe they will turn the question around and ensure that their offspring kills noone that day. In the meantime, both sides need to make a lot of compromises and we know here how difficult that is. And seeing as we are thousands of miles away maybe balance is the only thing we can bring to it.

    The Stooge (formerly known as Roisin)


    Roisin: If you had read the post more carefully, you would have noticed that I didn’t characterise the Israeli people as Nazis.This is the problem with knee-jerk responses. What I actually said was that it’s hard to tell the two apart these days, which is true, when we contemplate the circumstances in places such as Gaza.

    This post is about the ideology called Zionism, which I compared to Nazism. Many Israelis, both orthodox and secular are opposed to Zionism.

    If you like, I’ll write a report about the massacres of Palestinians by Israel’s DFF proxies in the camps at Sabra, Chatila and Bourj- al-Barajneh, and you can write about comparable massacres of Israelis in the Middle East by the Palestinians or their proxies.



    Your post, which I read carefully, was an unbalanced rant against Israel. A well worn ruse, Bock, to stick Zionism in the title. Zionism is what Ahmadinejad et al say they want destroyed but unfortunately the target in their sights is spelled I-s-r-a-e-l, with all the diversity of humans who live there and which you acknowledge in your reply.

    Israelis elect their government, same as the Palestinians, same as us, and none are free of the baggage of history and corruption and weak leaders and mean fundamentalist bastards with their own agendas which mire their own people in cycles of violence and misery.

    But, even if it had been a more balanced post Bock, I still would have absolutely no trouble whatsoever telling Zionists apart from Nazis. And neither would many of those who replied to you if you read their replies carefully.

    And no, I don’t want to play a game with you about the dead where you give me a Deir Yassin and I raise you a couple of No.10 buses in Jerusalem on successive Sunday mornings.

    Why not, instead of counting the dead bodies on both sides, or demonising one side to the exclusion of countenancing any faults on the other, have an eye for solutions and hope for the living on both sides?

    But it’s your blog!


    It’s not a ruse, Róisín. Don’t accuse me of dishonesty. And it isn’t a rant either.

    It’s how I feel about the way the Israeli government is treating the people of Gaza.

    What’s all this talk about balance?

    Did somebody pass a law while I wasn’t looking saying that all posts had to be balanced? If you’re so strong on maintaining balance, you might carry out an audit on the firepower of the Israeli army versus that of the Palestinians.

    And you might address the point I made about the massacres of Palestinian civilians in the refugee camps.

    While we’re at it, maybe I’ll write some stuff about the destruction of Palestinian villages to facilitate the creation of Israeli territory in the first place. (Evil, terrorist indigenous palestinians, of course).


    Sabra and Shatila was awful, Bock, a sheer bloody horror. I’ve read Robert Fisk’s piece on it so often I nearly could draw a map of the bodies. And yes indeed, the Israelis have zillions more firepower.

    The people of Gaza horrible lives. And yes, they yearn for their olive groves and fields and for their lovely homes in Jaffa and Haifa and education and futures for the kids and even basic dignity. If you think, for one moment, that I would think of them as ‘evil, terrorist indigenous Palestinians’, then God, Bock, I’ve not communicated anything here at all.

    If they have courage to hold out for better leaders and see off the frightening forces which serve them so badly, things could change very swiftly and dramatically. I really believe that. I don’t know what solution or alternative you see because you have not voiced it.

    But, nothing that I have heard or seen or read about justifies comparing Israelis (be they government ministers or the young men who do their bidding) to Nazis.


    Róisín: That’s fair enough. I can see that you’re sincere about this, but unfortunately what has been done to the Palestinian people is an absolute disgrace, and in my view there are many parallels with the Nazi thing (which I wouldn’t invoke at all if there wasn’t a Holocaust industry in Israel seeking to exempt them from all human values).

    I’m afraid the Israelis are in denial. Let’s be clear about something: no matter how awful the actions of Islamic nutcases, the Palestinians aren’t oppressing anyone, and never did.


    I know there was a book a few years ago on ‘the Holocaust industry’ and although its allegation was that the Holocaust is being exploited in Israel’s favour I didn’t think that the ‘industry’ was said to have started or was being conducted in Israel – though certainly it would have been for its ‘benefit’. I haven’t read the book, which won’t surprise you! I might give it a go. It’s important to keep the mind open and not be adding to the denial that definitely exists. Some Israeli authors (Grossman and Oz) might surprise many people too with their take on things. I don’t know how the appetite for justice will overpower all the fear and mistrust – probably when its the only option left to try. Bock, thanks for the chance to think it through again. I miss the mad place, heartbreaking and all as it is.


    Róisín: You shouldn’t be thanking me. I’m only some aggressive fucker complaining about hypocrisy.


    The Palestinians were anything but peaceful to Jews fleeing anti semitism in Europe before WW2 and trying to build new lives in their ancestral homeland. Hundreds of Jews were murdered by Arabs in the region in the 30s and pogroms were a regular feature of daily life. The Jews, under the British mandate in Palestine at the time, also had to live under very repressive legislation, especially in relation to the purchase of property. Three times in the last 70 years the Arabs were offered a two state solution (the only long term solution) and three times they rejected same.The despot Arafat, whose wife was/is living in luxury in a Paris penthouse, with millions siphoned off from “aid money” donated to the Palestinians, (google it)
    was one of the main obstacles to peace. He’s gone, but the irredentist claim to Palestine continues. But 6 million Israelis ain’t going nowwhere. Meanwhile, Israel has pulled out of the Gaza Strip, the responsibilty for that region
    now rests with Hamas or is that Hezzbolah, whatever, two “fine liberal political organisations”
    who, when not “killing an hour or two of an afternoon” firing rockes into Israel, would have no hesitation in dragging the region
    back to the 10th century and the rest of the world with it. As for Robert Fisk, his anti Israel views are well known at this stage. Fisk, in his book, Pity the Nation, was actually trying to lay the legal framework for the destruction of Israel.
    This type of moral ambiguity lends legitimacy to
    campaigns of genocide.
    It is the type of moral ambiguity that we should understand well as a certain organisation on this island, aided and abbetted by our tacit approval and silence, engaged in a thirty year war of terror on the Unionist population which nearly resulted in the type of civil war which engulfed
    Bosnia. Stop supporting irredendist Arab claims.
    Their only, “roadmap” if you like, to peace and prosperity for the Arabs is to agree to the two state solution which includes the very generous offer for the ethnic partition of Jerusalem made at Camp David by the Jews. This is the only way to isolate the madmen of Hamas and Hezbollah, who are sponsored by Iran and Syria, two countries sworn to the complete destruction of Israel, which incidently houses about three quarter of a million Arabs – almost ironically,
    Israel it is the only country in the Middle East where Arabs can democratically choose their government.


    That all seems like a bit prepared, if you don’t mind my saying so. I hope you’re not one of those serial ranters.


    That’s a bit rich from you accusing me of being a serial ranter……the entire site is a rant.. “sorry” for interupting the cosy consensus with Roisin


    Can you read? I accused you of nothing. I said I hoped you weren’t a serial ranter.



    It is estimated/alleged that the despot Arafat siphoned off €11 to €15 million of PLO money and forked it out to the missus Suha.

    And Bertie was ran out of office for accepting a “dig out” from his friends, while Arafat was given a state funeral complete with much wailing and knashing of teeth.

    Suha, who lives a life of luxury in Paris, and who has rarely stepped foot in Palestine, was (allegedly) receiving around €100,000 a month from the hubby.

    This is more than Paul McCartneys wife, Pinochio receives a month from the recent divorce settlement.

    “I can’t understand why people should question
    a husband supporting his wife” she was quoted as saying when an inquiry into PLO corruption was

    True…but how was Arafat earning the spondolicks…

    Maybe he was getting a 20% commission every time an Arab suicide bomber blew hinmself up, i e 20% for at least one Jew dead, 30% for a bus load of Jewish school children,
    a sort of bonus scheme for Arafat, whilst the bomber gets to shag the virgins wating in the afterlife.

    Either way, you won’t be reading anything about Suha and her domestic financial arrangements with the hubby on the website for the Irish Palestinian Solidarity movement.

    But don’t be giving them any money as it could end up in Suhas account, and she there in Paris,
    comtemplating life and death options, such as whether to have another cappachino or go buy that new frock while children on the Gaza Strip are starving.

    Pity the people of Gaza indeed; on the one hand they are ruled by religious fanatics while the moderates, Abbas and crew, are about as usefull as an ashtray on a motor bike.

    On the other hand, the Jews (understandbly) have a tendency to shoot first and ask questions later.

    And on top of all that they then have the wife of their former “spiritual leader” living the life of Reilly in Paris on money which was supposed to be for their relief.


    That would all be highly relevant if this post was about Arafat’s finances. But it isn’t.


    Comparing Zionism to Nazism is utterly wrong, and represents some liberal guilt pathology – ‘now you are as bad as you say our granparents were.’

    It is totally inaccurate, the Nazis sought to eliminate all Jews in the world, it became more important to them than winning the war. In Hitler’s last will and testament, he calls not for the continuation of National Socialism but for the killing of more Jews. Why is the Palestinian population increasing? They are not being eliminated.

    People also talk about excessive US aid to Israel – remember that the Palestinians also receive bucketloads of cash from Europe, the UN and Arab sources. This money lines the pockets of warlords or gets wasted. Much of Ireland’s aid money goes to the PA. Remember where Dermot Ahern was during 9/11? All cosy in Palestine with Mr. Arafat.


    Don’t avoid the point by arguing with things I didn’t say.

    Read the post properly: it doesn’t say Zionism is Nazism. It points out the similarities between the way Nazism treated the Jews and the way the Israelis are treating Palestinians.

    And by the way, why do you think “Liberal” is a criticism? Are you American?


    No, I’m just indicating that most of this thrash stems from the left-wingers these days. You could make a Goebbels-like speech today at many lefty meetings by replacing the word ‘Jew’ with ‘Zionist’ and get an astounding applause.

    And read my post again, I say the Israeli treatment of Palestinians is not similar, the same or in any way parallel.


    And I’m saying it is similar.

    There we differ.

    You use the term left-winger the same way you use the term Liberal: as a form of abuse.

    That’s very American. In most of the civilised world, left-wing politics has a legitimate place, as does a liberal outlook, but not, apparently in Israel.


    I’m not using left winger/liberal as an insult, these are legitimate positions. I regard myself as a free market liberal.

    Left-wing politics has indeed a place in Israel, I am on a kibbutz right now, one of socialism’s few successful outlets. If you spend even two minutes in Israel you will see what a forum it is for respectful, but very lively debate for people of all shades of opinion (look at the ridiculous amount of parties in the Knesset, many of them, maybe the majority, lefty)

    People today like to portray Israel as being outside of the civilized world, especially in Europe and Arab countries themselves certainly outside the civilized world.


    If you look around this site, you’ll also see criticism of European policies, Islamic attitudes and America’s behaviour in the world. You will also find items on Turkey, Germany, Croatia and Serbia, not to mention Ireland and England. I’m not trying to portray Israel as being outside the civilised world, as you put it.

    However, you need to stand back and look at your treatment of the Palestinians. Do you think they attack Israel because it’s their hobby?


    I admire the fact that you have a diverse cross-section of policies/attitudes that you criticize, not just Israel. Many today have made Israel, often along with the U.S. the sole bane of their existence (see George Galloway). Why is Israel the subject of 40% of all critical UN resolutions? Is Israel responsible for 40% of what is wrong in the world?

    Look, this conflict isn’t just about land, as many think. Israel withdrew from Gaza and Lebanon completely, nothing was reciprocated from the other side, instead we got rockets. The real barrier to peace is the hatred barrier which calls for the destruction of all Israel and the hunting down of Jews everywhere. As long as they teach the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in Arab schools, and the Hamas Charter stays the way it is, there will be no peace. Islamic extremism has gripped the Palestinians, the old-style Pan-Arab Nationalism, that had a hint of secularism is gone. The left have ironically become the greatest apologists for religious extremism.

    Lets take a look at that Charter, which claims claims that the French revolution, the Russian revolution, colonialism and both world wars were created by the Zionists. It also claims the Freemasons and Rotary clubs are Zionist fronts:

    ‘You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it.’


    The Protocols of the Elders of Zion were a forgery, designed to facilitate the oppression of Jews. I hope you’re not suggesting that this site is in some way anti-Jewish?


    How did you come to that conclusion? I said Hamas are anti-Jewish, who have taken over Gaza, not bocktherobber.com.


    I didn’t come to that conclusion. I only asked.



    Try telling me they don’t encourage terrorism.

    Yes the Israelis put them under horrible conditions, but they’re hardly innocent. There are many innocent israelis suffering under terrorism from Israeli-arabs and from palestinians. The wall cut terrorism by 80%, and both sides of the wall have a large proportion living under the poverty line.

    Completely biased view.


    When you say “they’re hardly innocent”, are you also talking about terrorist children?

    It seems to me that everyone who criticises Israeli policy is characterised as a terrorist.

    Would you call Sabra, Bourj-al Barajneh and Chatila terrorism?


    I never characterised you a terrorist for criticising Israel. And yes, Sabra and Chatila were acts of terrorism, but they were carried out by Lebanese christians. You could always say that ‘the israeli army knew there would be massacres’ but you can hardly compare it to the terrorism amongst hamas. You fail to understand that so many jews believe that it is their land, and are zionist for that reason. Religious jews in israel don’t join the army. they don’t fight for their country, or lock out others.. they just want it. You really don’t understand that zionists/israeli military are completely different, and you have no real knowledge of what actually happens out there.


    I have no interest in what anyone believes. That’s irrelevant.

    The DFF were called that by the UN for a very good reason: they were the Israeli de facto forces. They were the Israelis’ proxies, and they did carry out the slaughter with the connivance and agreement of the Israeli military.

    You’re straying dangerously close to denial of mass murder, which as we all know, is something the Israelis abhor.


    That wasn’t my point.

    The Israeli’s actions are awful. But so are the palestinians. And if you were to argue who was behaving more like nazis, the propaganda video in my previous comment does it for me. So if you reread your little passage at the top, maybe you’ll realize that these people aren’t all angels. And if you actually met a zionist, maybe you’d understand that he doesn’t want to have his country ethnically cleansed of arabs.
    If these innocent arabs are so amazing, why do they send missiles over schools in Sderot every day, giving kids only 15 seconds to get to cover? Why are Hamas STILL smuggling in thousands of weapons?
    That’ll give you some idea of why Israelis are keeping palestinians at a safe distance.


    I don’t remember saying that these people are all angels. I said in essence the same thing as you: the Israelis’ actions are awful.

    When a country is forcibly occupied and violently usurped, as happened in the creation of Israel, there is going to be a backlash, which some will call terrorism and others will call resistance. Menachem Begin was a classic terrorist in his early days, funding his attacks on the British though extortion, yet he ended his days as a respected statesman.

    Gaza is by definition a concentration camp, and of all people in the world, one would have thought the Israelis would abhor such a thing. But apparently not.

    As regards the propaganda video, if you look around this site, you’ll see a good deal of criticism of Islamic fanaticism, but one video cannot be used to demonise an entire nation.


    A video shown to 3 million arab kids? From palestinian TV? Yes it can.


    Just a little comment on the issue of anti-semitism;

    Se·mit·ic (s-mtk)
    1. Of or relating to the Semites or their languages or cultures.
    2. Of, relating to, or constituting a subgroup of the Afro-Asiatic language group that includes Arabic, Hebrew, Amharic, and Aramaic.
    1. The Semitic languages.
    2. Any one of the Semitic languages.

    so both Isrealis and Palistinians are Semites. Also the tribe of Abraham came from the Arabian penninsula, so both Isrealis and Palistinians are Arabs.
    In conclusion, i guess assholes are assholes, and genocide is genocide.


    Well said.


    Israel is one country that can create problems for the whole world. All major businesses, media giants and policy makers are or have jewish bosses in USA. So whatever israel wants USA has to do it. Somehow israel has fear from the muslims. This is partly for the prophecies where jews have predicted to be fighting against the muslims and christians. If you look at the US media and movies nowadays you will find more judaism than christianity. Most people are shown to have atheistic interests. Interestingly the jewish fear is not restricted to iran, syria, hamas and the rest of all the jibba jabba it goes beyond that to all muslim countries. This shows how a small state like israel can become more powerful than the US. May be we need to learn a thing or two from them.


    homemars (above): ”Israel is one country that can create problems for the whole world. All major businesses, media giants and policy makers are or have jewish bosses in USA.”

    Sounds like something Goebbels would say. The Shoah could never have happened without idiotic myths like this taking hold among the populace.

    If there is no Jewish State, without F-16s, we have pogroms and we have Auschwitz.

    Catastrophe is just around the corner if people talk like this and claim they are not anti-Semetic, but hide it behind anti-Zionism. Wilhelm Marr coined the term anti-Semetism when religious hatred of Jews went out of fashion in the Western world. He and the Nazis would attack Jewry on new, far more enlightened and scientific racial grounds.

    The new anti-Semitism focuses not on Judaism as a religion, nor on Jews as a race, but on Jews as a nation. Like the way the old anti-Semitism took hold among intelligent and supposedly enlightened circles, the new anti-Semetic trends in the form of extreme anti-Zionism has taken hold among the left and penetrated our universities and media. This will lead to disaster, mark my words.


    Yeah that’s right. What happened to European Jews in the second world war fully justifies the political entity of Isreal acting the same. Isreal has every right to dispossess an entire people and commit a cultural genocide if not a physical one.
    And any one who disagrees is an anti-semite, except of course that Arabs are semites too, so I suppose that makes the state of Isreal very anti-semitic indeed.


    What Homemars said about Jewish bosses was plain stupid.

    However, it’s equally stupid to call anyone who criticises Israel anti-Semitic. Stupid and arrogant.


    There is legitimate criticism of Israel. That is justified, as is criticism of any other country’s actions and policies. No serious Israeli thinker calls criticism of their state anti-Semitic.
    The myth comes from the western liberal mindset, which in the past supported Israel purely because they regarded it as PC. Now they support the Arab cause out of Political Correctness, a stupid approach to anything.

    Then there is demonisation of Israel, like what happened at the Durban Conference in 2001, which singles out Israel for abuse, by calling it the worst violator of human rights (which it is not) and comparing it to the Nazi regime (which is outrageous). And it is always to the Nazi regime. Not Stalin’s, not Mao’s, not Hirohito’s Japan. But practically always to Hitler’s Germany. Something is fishy here, something that lurks in our civilizations mindset, and it disturbs me.


    Unfortunately, if they build a huge wall and concentrate people behind it into an area with the highest population density on Earth, they’re bound to invite comparison with the Nazis.


    Of course it was an Irishman, Kerry born Lord Horatio Kitchener, then serving in the British army, that introduced concentration camps during the Boer war.

    Zionism and Nazism, words that trip off the tongue, eye catching symbols also, the star of David and the swastika, plagiarized from a Greek symbol representing the four seasons.

    There is no doubt that comparing Zionism with Nazism is intended as the maximum insult to Jews . The idle comparisons are mostly made by Europeans, the inhabitants of a continent haunted by the ghost of National Socialism and of Nazi collaborators past.

    But an accurate comparison would be between Nazism and Islamic Jihad as espoused by Iran, Hezbullah and Hamas, armed entities, who like the Nazis, are consumed with a desire to wipe Jews/Israel off the face of the map.

    You can’t get more fascist than vowing to pursue a campaign of genocide against a nation because of their race.

    History meanwhile, when confronted with European guilt at the Shoah, throws bloodstained hands in the air asking “but why didn’t you defend yourself” – and then evolves into a hypocritical consensus condemning the Jews for doing exactly that.

    The Jew will be condemned if he does and quite definitely condemned if he doesn’t – the decadent European media doing most of the condemning.

    However, as ex Israel Premier Golda Meir once said “Better a bad editorial than a good obituary.”


    There is no doubt that comparing Zionism with Nazism is intended as the maximum insult to Jews

    How do you know what’s intended? Are you a mindreader?

    If the comparison withstands scrutiny, it’s not an insult.

    Stop feeling sorry for yourself.


    Dear Bock, In line with many other cotributors may I draw you and your visitors’ attention to this recent article on the Gaza crisis:

    “The Gaza crisis and the perspective of permanent revolution” by Bill Van Auken.

    The Israeli stste is using methods used by the Nazi State; but it is not a fascist regiime.

    But the coming period will present us with the very real threat of fascist governments emerging, as the powerts that be struggle to contain the worldwide opposition to their rule.
    Who can doubt the savagery that our rulers will use after witnessing the horror in Gaza?


    Quote “German fascism, like Italian fascism, raised itself to power on the backs of the petty bourgeoisie, which it turned into a battering ram against the organizations of the working class and the institutions of democracy. But fascism in power is least of all the rule of the petty bourgeoisie. On the contrary, it is the most ruthless dictatorship of monopoly capital.”

    Zionism continually tries to enrage the distressed Israeli citizen. Using racist and nationalist demagogy, the Jewish people are told that all their problems, all their battles to get through every day are rooted in the encirclement by the Hostile Arab World.

    And any Jewish person or group in Israel who rejects the Zionist program is vilified as traitorous, by official public opinion; and increasingly by rabid, fascist-leaning zealots and xenophobes.


    Apart from the Palestinian people Iran is the most demonised and potrayed as the most aggresive genocidal in waiting nation on earth by Israel,but lets get it down to a few simple facts,how many wars of aggression has Israel waged and how many such wars has Iran waged.Indeed when did Iran last launch an unprovoked war on anybody.As for the statement of the Iranian president,I do not recall him saying that Israel should be “wiped off the map by military means”.Israels existence has long ago been secured.The problem is that Israel is not satisfied with what it has got.Hence the never ending push into what remains of Palestinian territory.The Palestinians very existance has become an irritant and obstacle to Israels long term plans.The Zionists are like a cuckoo chick in a nest pushing the rightful occupants slowly out of it to starve.Also that Israel seems to fear peace far more than war is telling.I wonder also what effect peace would have on the economy of Israel as a huge percentage of its population is employed in the war and security industries.And not to mention the billions of dollars donated to Israel by USA for “Defence” agression would be a more accurate term perhaps.Peace is not in Israels interests and that explains why they keep stroking up the flames of war at almost predictable intervals.


    William, every war waged against Israel has been a war of extermination. And I hate to inform you that Iran has threatened to wipe Israel off the map, and I think you danm well know they mean by any means necessary. And Israel has consistently traded land for peace. Almost everthing Israel captured in 1967 has been traded for peace,when there have been viable partners on the other side. I can’t stress ‘viable partners’ enough. Is there a special place in your heart for tyrannical regimes, provided they attack your pet hates, the US and Israel?

    It was once said here, by Bock I think, that we could spend all night analysing my attitude to the Palestinians, and I might not come out of it looking good. I stated my views on the matter quite honestly in the ‘Israeli Goods’ topic, and nobody can call me a racist. It is taken for granted by many posters that I am prejudiced as I believe in the right of Israel to exist with secure and recognised borders.

    However, many attitudes to Israeli Jews have come to the fore recently, and I don’t think those who expressed them look particularly good. Not least to mention that most here seem to have no real viable solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and the wider conflict with other Arab nations, as realistic and practical solutions conflict with their maximalist ideaologies. Most here seem to be experts in applying simplistic,one-sided solutions to complex and multi-faceted problems.


    An F16 is fairly simplistic and one-sided.


    ‘maximalist’? I think ‘the right of Israel to exist with secure and recognised borders’ sounds a bit maximalist when talking about a people trapped behind a wall that your country built.
    Nobody, to my knowledge, questioned Israel’s right to exist on this site or defended the actions of Hamas. Israel’s unjustifiable actions have been questioned, and your defence is that we’re all anti-jew. You hide behind the same rhetoric to muddy the water’s and avoid the real issue, and as long as the Israeli leaership hides behind it’s religious identity jews everywhere, not just in Israel, pay for their misdeeds.
    Over 1000 people, human beings, dead in 3 weeks. That’s the issue.
    What about the Palestinian’s right to exist?
    What’s your solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Kill or chase-out all the Palestinians? Well that is very ‘real’.

    And tell me this, how many UN compounds has Iran attacked, and if they did, what would be the response?


    Bock would clearly like Israel to lie down and do nothing about rocket attacks, except perhaps throw the occassional flower. That’s fine, as Bock thankfully doesn’t run a country. Operation Cast Lead is not ‘unjustifiable’. If Israel wanted to indiscriminately kill Palestinians, the Air Force could have done a Dresden on it and killed hundreds of thousands. But that’s not what happened.

    Also, I never called anybody anti-Jew, except the occassional person who did make a blatantly anti-semitic comment. And there have been a few (jacksnipe, homemars) that I have confronted.

    Now C’est, obviously I can’t give you my entire ideal model for piece here, only a summary. Contrary to your last presumption, I, like the majority of Israelis (I must stress that I do not live in Israel ATM, I have spent a lot of time there, I’m moving there after I graduate to study, gain citizenship and do my military service) believe in a two-state solution and a Palestinian state with secure and recognised borders.

    Ideally, most West Bank Settlements, particularly the smaller, isolated ones, should be disbanded. I’ve seen many that were just founded in honour of a murdered member of a nearby settlement that are little more than a few trailers and a flag. Larger blocs close to Israel proper should be incorporated into Israel. Land with an Arab majority in Israel should be traded with the PA in return. I have grown to believe in the ‘Land for Land, Peace for Peace’ solution in recent times, particularly after the failure of unilateral withdrawal policies in Gaza and Lebanon.
    The security fence can come down when the Palestinians pull their own version of the Altalena affair and don’t have a lot of unofficial armies running about their state. People often forget why the barrier is put up, and the countless lives it has saved. It is not so different from the ‘peace walls’ of Northern Ireland, and is totally unlike the Berlin Wall (remember, those on both sides hate eachother). Refugees should have a right of return to the state under the PA, which need not be, contiguous. A non-contiguous state is not a real barrier to peace, Brunei happens to be non-contiguous. Israel happens to be very narrow, so the WB and Gaza can be connected via high-speed rail link or highway under PA or limited Israeli control.

    Obviously, there are many further points, but this has gone on too much already.


    System — Don’t put words in my mouth and don’t twist what I said.

    You can’t blast your way through civilians to get at your enemy.

    That’s what you did in Gaza.

    That’s what makes your military and your politicians war criminals


    Also, I think Israel and it’s supporters abroad should also make peace with the anti-Israel college professors and foreign politicians, who are even more dangerous than most terrorists.

    It’s not so much a problem in the US, as the center left and center right tend to support Israel. However, it is clear that extremists on both sides of the political spectrum hate Israel, because they hate liberal democracies, because they tend to have a special place in their heart for tyrannical regimes, and because they often have strange views with regard to anything Jewish. The extreme left, as represented by Noam Chomsky, Ralph Nader, Cynthia McKinney, Norman Finkelstein and, most recently, Jimmy Carter has little good to say about the Jewish state. But nor does the extreme right, as represented by Pat Buchanan, Robert Novak, Joseph Sobran and ex-KKK yet ironically Iranian loving David Duke. When it comes to Israel there is little difference between the extreme right and the extreme left.

    However, in Europe, and the US to a certain extent, I see a disturbing trend – the far left is merging with the center and are trying to put a noose around Israel. The center right, thankfully, are growing more and more distant from the far right. It’s a shame Israel has to make peace with the Palestinians and Arab states that are relatively dovish compared to the activists on foreign campuses.


    Do you think everyone hates Israel?


    System, there is a big difference between the bluster of the Iranian president whose statement did not state that his country would attack Israel but an opinion that it should not be there.Contrast that with Israels request to the USA last summer for the bombs they needed and the ok to attack Iran.Quite a big difference between that and the bluster of a politician designed for his home audience.The Iranians are not fools who would attack a nuclear power.But they themselves feel they are in mortal danger and they have good reason to think that.Also a lot of the false intelligence that led to the invasion of Iraq had Zionist origins.Such as yellow cake from Niger.And the only reason they stopped the Gaza massacre is because their neocon puppets were gone from the white house.They will now cautiously test the new regime to see what they can get away with.


    I don’t think everybody hates Israel. Certainly in the US the centrist political left and the centrist political right generally support Israel. Among Israel’s strongest supporters have always been Ted Kennedy, Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Barney Frank, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. The same is true of the centrist political right, as represented by Mitt Romney, George W. Bush, Orrin Hatch and John McCain.

    However, it’s the extremists one has to look out for. These days, on Israel, there is no difference in the positions of the extreme left and extreme right. Ex-KKK leader David Duke ironically is a fan of Iranians and attended the infamous Holocaust denial conference. Noam Chomsky has also supported anti-Zionist Holocaust deniers like Robert Faurisson. It is ironic that these people probably despise eachother.

    The problem is, as I’ve said before, is the far left’s high-jacking of the center left. This is while the far right has grown much more distant from the center, and the process is continuing. It’s one of the reasons I grew distant from the left wing, though I stress not the only one. I consider myself a libertarian due to my belief in minimum government rather than being on a defined ‘right’ or ‘left’ platform.

    William – Charlie Manson may have had some unrealistic views and goals but that shouldn’t stop anybody locking the guy up. Same goes for those nutjobs in Iran.


    There seems to be a heavy emphasis on named individuals in your arguments.

    Wouldn’t you get more attention if you played the ball instead of the man?


    I need real-life examples, otherwise the notion would be too vague for many people. The best way to teach is by example.

    But, I still say friends of Israel should make sure that support for Israel remains strong both among mainstream liberals and conservatives, and attack the extremist David Duke/Noam Chomsky viewpoints like they belonged to Hamas or Hezbollah. They can be are far more dangerous than these terrorist groups, as their opinions have infiltrated the West – David Duke’s KKK have been around for a while and Chomsky’s opinions have dominated college campuses and are dominating far left and now center-left thinking, a very dangerous trend.


    So you’re teaching, are you?

    Teach me about terror. Do you think the people of Gaza feel terror when you bomb them?


    Not really, I was just playing on the popular saying, to ‘teach by example’. Darn, Bock, you’re really nit-picking.

    I do feel it is important to get the word out about the extreme left and extreme right – Chomsky and Duke both support Holocaust deniers to attack Israel. The extremists on the far left and far right share the same views on Israel, but it is unfortunately the far-left views of Finkelstein and Chomsky that are taking over the center left. The same is not true on the relationship between the extreme right and center right.


    And you consider Jimmy Carter to be part of the extreme left?


    I shouldn’t have lumped him in with Finkelstein and Chomsky immediately. He is more an example of how the extreme left’s views on Israel have infiltrated the center left.

    Many of his views and writings have been nutty – calling Israel’s actions towards Palestinians worse than the Rwandan genocide, and saying that Jewish money prevented him from winning a second term (despite the fact he seemed to be having a fun sleepover with his friends during that whole hostage crisis that miraculously ended when he was finally booted out by a landslide) makes him sounnd like Chomsky and David Duke – at least on the Israel issue and the global far left/far right jihad on Israel and the all-powerful Neo-Cons/Zionists (or, if you’re too stupid or serious to veil your opinions, Jews). Not to mention he works closely with Hamas, whom I know nobody here would ever claim to be defending.


    Now that you’ve done the whole ad hominem thing, how do you feel about bombing a prison?


    Your comment about Chomsky is false and belies your style of arguement. Chomsky wrote a preface to condemn the freedom of speak being denied Robert Faurisson, who denied the holocaust. Chomsky’s point was that freedom of speech is not just for those who’s arguements we agree with. Faurisson was condemned by french courts as denying the holocaust is a crime in France.
    I may not agree with everything Chomsky’s says but he has never denied the holocaust. You are twisting the facts again.
    You critise these ‘extremists’ but you show yourself to be the type of person likely to strap on a semtex belt and suicide bomb a Hamas checkpoint if you were asked to, so entrenched are you in your rhetoric and your ideology. Or perhaps you’d just be a recruiter. Your as bad as the people you claim are a threat to Israel.


    I also want to bring william up on the ‘neo-conservative’ question. If you know what a neo-conservative is william (I wont embarass you by explaining why Cheney and Bush aren’t considered ‘neo-cons’ in the literal sense) you will realise their opinions on various matters are actually more balanced and reasonable than regular conservatives nowadays.

    For example:

    Bill Kristol was Rumsfeld’s greatest agitator, and most open critic on the right. Bush wanted to keep Rumsfeld on for as long as possible, Kristol denounced it as cronyism. Bush wanted Rumsfeld to be the longest-serving defence secretary in history, Kristol blew his lid when he realised what was happening.

    Richard Perle: Has kept schtum on Iraq for a while now, and has claimed the whole endeavor was a mistake

    Paul Wolfowitz: Also has kept schtum on Iraq for years now.

    The neo-cons cannot be blamed for everything. I mean, the Project for a New American Century has a staff of nine. Many traditional Republican think-thanks hostile to the neo-conservative movement have staffs of hundreds.


    Is that the same ‘Project for a New American Century’ that called for a new Pearl Harbour event?
    ‘Think tanks’ like the Council on Forein Relations and the Bilderberg group?
    If I was I you, I wouldn’t worry about embarresing anybody else.


    C’est – How dare you suggest I could be a suicide bomber. That is a grave insult, I despise that practce so much… That is just pllain ignorance and offensive. It’s an insult to victims of suicide bombing, and an insult to Jewish sentiments – the practice is at odds with everything I hold dear. More presumptions coming out of C’est about me again.

    Chomsky’s definition of anti-semitism is so narrow, that not even the Protocols of the Elders of Zion nor Holocaust denial fall into it. Now, I don’t agree with European Holocaust denial laws – they make extremist hate Jews even more, and it should be punished under existing incitement laws and such.

    Yet Chomsky says:

    I see no anti-Semitic implications in denial of the existence of gas chambers or even denial of the Holocaust. Nor would there be anti-Semitic implications, per se, in the claim that the Holocaust (whether one believes it took place or not) is being exploited, viciously so, by apologists for Israeli repression and violence. I see no hint of anti-Semitic implications in Faurisson’s work.” (quoted in Noam Chomsky’s Search for the Truth)


    Is it ok to bomb people if you don’t kill yourself?


    It’s ok to pinpoint hostile targets for an airstrike, as opposed to indiscriminate carpet-bombing of an area. It’s not ok to go to an area where there are as many women and children as there possibly can be, like a pizza restaurant or Passover Seder for elderly Holocaust survivors, and blow yourself up.

    You have also on this site cynically lumped combabtant deaths with civilian deaths in Gaza – 450-650 of the deaths were of combatants, and not a cause for mourning, unlike the actual civilians.


    I have consistently talked about the civilians.

    Let’s talk about them some more.

    Is it ok to blast your way through civilians to get at your enemy?

    How about when you herded the Samouni family into a house and killed them? Is that a teeny bit like attacking a restaurant, do you think?

    How about when your pinpoint attacks destroyed thousands of tons of food and medicine?


    How dare I what? Have an opinion? Critise Israel? Critise you?
    Your narrow minded comments on the ‘regretteble’ massacre that Isael has committed in Gaza show you to be extremist in your views. It’s the same exremist certainty, and a good dose of anger and hatred that make a jihadist become suicide bombers. What makes you so different from them, except that your family is probably alive.
    You speak of ‘presumptions’ yet you presume to tar anyone who disagrees with you as anti-jewish, and it’s always you who brings religion back into it.

    Here’s a bit of Chomsky you convienently forgot to quote;

    ” Faurisson’s conclusions are diametrically opposed to views I hold and have frequently expressed in print (for example, in my book Peace in the Middle East, where I describe the Holocaust as “the most fantastic outburst of collective insanity in human history”). But it is elementary that freedom of expression (including academic freedom) is not to be restricted to views of which one approves, and that it is precisely in the case of views that are almost universally despised and condemned that this right must be most vigorously defended. It is easy enough to defend those who need no defense or to join in unanimous (and often justified) condemnation of a violation of civil rights by some official enemy.

    He continued:

    Let me add a final remark about Faurisson’s alleged “anti-Semitism.” Note first that even if Faurisson were to be a rabid anti-Semite and fanatic pro-Nazi — such charges have been presented to me in private correspondence that it would be improper to cite in detail here — this would have no bearing whatsoever on the legitimacy of the defense of his civil rights. On the contrary, it would make it all the more imperative to defend them since, once again, it has been a truism for years, indeed centuries, that it is precisely in the case of horrendous ideas that the right of free expression must be most vigorously defended; it is easy enough to defend free expression for those who require no such defense. Putting this central issue aside, is it true that Faurisson is an anti-Semite or a neo-Nazi? As noted earlier, I do not know his work very well. But from what I have read — largely as a result of the nature of the attacks on him — I find no evidence to support either conclusion. Nor do I find credible evidence in the material that I have read concerning him, either in the public record or in private correspondence. As far as I can determine, he is a relatively apolitical liberal of some sort.”


    System’s views seem to be very authoritarian.

    His refusal to deal even with the slightest criticism of Israel remind me of Scientology, fundamentalist Christianity or extreme Islamism.


    Authoriatarian!? More danmed presumptions! Have I mentioned the fact that I support the exact oposite of authoritarianism – liberalism! My ideas of how to run a state revolve around the theories of Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman, Robert Nozick and others. With regard to Israel, I would like to see a merger between Jewish values and libertarianism, as any other state could do the same with another set of values.

    I’m not brainwashed – I’m a free thinker, unlike so many nowadays. Do you know that according to MSN polls, 90% of Irish people supported Obama in the last election! The media here doesn’t even try to be objective! It’s the same on Israel, everybody here follows the same mantra, which one cannot deviate very much from. College campuses have no room for a pro-Israel voice – they are shunned. Every professor here seems to despise Israel almost personally. They see the world and media being full of Neo-Con/Zionist bullies trying to stifle debate and opinion, while at the same time those views seem to be the consensus opinion among the majority!

    And don’t bother comparing me to a Christian or Islamic fundamentalist, or even a Scientologist. I am a Jew. You know that. So go ahead and call me an extremist Jew if you want. But it’s not true. I don’t think I refer to religion very much or at all in my arguments.


    I’m not comparing you with anything.

    I’m comparing your views with the views of others. That’s an entirely different thing, or maybe you’re not yet aware of the difference.

    As long as you’ve been commenting here, the main characteristic I’ve noticed in your attitude is denial. Refusal to concede that Israel could in any way be wrong for what you’ve done in Gaza. Refusal to accept any sort of contrary view. That’s very like fundamentalist Christianity. It’s also a lot like the attitude of Islamists.

    The other tendency I’ve noticed is your habit of attacking people instead of addressing their ideas. You did that here with your list of people neatly labelled as extreme left and extreme right, according to your own private definitions.

    That’s a lot like the tactics Scientologists adopt.

    Of course, I’m not saying you are a Muslim, a Scientologist,or a Christian.

    I’m simply saying that your approach and techniques have a lot in common with theirs.


    Well, how would you label those I’ve called far right, and those I’ve called far left, then?

    And do you want my opinion on the ‘issue at hand’ – the Gaza incursion, for the umpteenth time? Here it is:

    An anti-Semitic (in the classic Wilhelm Marr use of the word) terrorist group runs Gaza. Their charter calls for the destruction of Israel and their leaders incite genocide against the Jewish people. They engage in a rocket campaign that needs to be stopped. This has been going on for years, and it only intensified when Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza. It went on before the Hamas takeover, and before the so-called ‘Gaza siege’ which justifies their actions in many people’s minds. Hamas are employing a new weapon in a cynical effort to obtain international support for their bigoted aims: their new weapon is the use of civilians as both targets and shields. What Hamas is doing should be evident to anyone with an objective eye and common sense.

    Operation Cast Lead is not a war crime, as reasonable efforts were taken to reduce civilian casualties, a legitimate defence to these charges. Mistakes may have been made in specific cases, investigations may need to be done on specific allegations, no matter how much you trust John Ging or Hamas. Whatever atrocities happened, they are not official Israeli policy, like the way genocide is official Hamas or Hezbollah policy, and the work of individuals and perhaps negligence on the Israeli side are to blame.

    And that is what I contend.


    And for the umpteenth time, you avoid the question: Is it ok to blast your way through civilians to get at your enemy?


    Indeed Bock in Lebanon two years ago Israel flew over the combatants at the front to attack the civilians in the rear slaughtering a thousand of them again.I wonder how this fits in with systems human shield theories.Looks more like a policy of targeting civilians to punish the combatants.Does it not look like Israel is using the slaughter of civilians as a policy of war.True terrorism.


    System you see the problem with many of your statements is that they do not mesh smoothly with known facts.A lot of them are just articles of faith.A blind belief in what your leaders say.Kind of like an intelligent design versus evolution argument.


    Absolutely untrue, William. It seems you have succumbed to every myth in the book. You have characterised every war Israel has been involved in as being started by Israel and being a war of aggression. You have also taken the cheap and easy route by playing up US/Israel ties – a sure applause-getter among many circles. I have already stated that Israel has traded almost everything captured in 1967 for peace with viable partners. Now,to be sure,the country isn’t perfect and has made mistakes – the 1956 incursion to Egypt was not a good idea, nor perhaps the scope of Lebanon in 1982. But you can’t argue there was absolutely no causus belli in even those cases.

    On the subject of the US/Israel relationship, I’ve already demonstrated that the neo-conservative movement does not control foreign policy, and how some of the movement’s leadership are more balanced in their approach than regular conservatives. Neo-cons just make convenient scapegoats for the unaware. Also, the U.S. has taken positions against Israel at the UN more often than not, and did not use its Security Council veto to block an anti-Israel resolution until 1972.

    Israel did not begin to receive large amounts of American assistance until around the 1973 war, and the sums increased dramatically after the Camp David agreements. Altogether, since 1949, Israel has received more than $90 billion in assistance. Though the totals are impressive, the value of assistance to Israel has been eroded by inflation.

    Arab states that have signed agreements with Israel have also been rewarded. Since signing the peace treaty with Israel, Egypt has been the second largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid ($2 billion in 2002, Israel received $2.8 billion). Jordan has also been the beneficiary of higher levels of aid since it signed a treaty with Israel (increasing from less than $40 million to more than $225 million). The multibillion dollar debts to the U.S. of both Arab nations were also forgiven, but not Israel’s.

    In 1967, Egypt and the others were receiving bucketloads of Soviet weaponry. They had modern Soviet tanks in Egypt, Israel had to rely on recycled WW2 era Shermans from scrapyards that were not even designed for desert conflict, they had to be quickly recalibrated. Israel did not get serious US backing until the Yom Kippur war.


    System — Am I talking to myself?

    You’ve had plenty of space to set out your manifesto.

    Are you going to deal with specifics or are you just here to muddy the waters?

    I’m starting to doubt your bona fides.

    You see, much though I want to be fair to you, I don’t propose to allow you unlimited access to this site simply to preach on behalf of Israel.

    This post is about Gaza.

    The next comment that looks like a polemic designed to avoid the issue will be placed in moderation. And the one after that.

    You decide.


    ‘I have already stated that Israel has traded almost everything captured in 1967 for peace with viable partners’
    Who’s land was it before Israel was nice enough to hand it back? There big hearted guys aren’t they, giving back some of they land they stole.
    Your touching defence of the Neo-Cons is very nice but AIPAC is one of the biggest lobbying groups in Washington. It’s not just a question of Neo-Cons, it’s any politician wanting to get money or votes.
    Yet again you are muddying the water’s, dodging the issue and avoiding the question. Why don’t you answer this by a longwinded comment about Iraq, or the North pole..


    I have been recieving loads of emails because I left a comment on this ages ago. Bock you are just clueless. You have no idea who Hamas are and who Israel are.

    So, I’ll make a post about Gaza, without avoiding anything.

    Bock. Yes, Israel have killed civilians, but that is not their aim. They don’t go out purposely killing civilians. But Hamas want the world to see the ‘pigs and monkeys’ killing their innocent people. They base their weapons facilities in schools and hospitals, they fire missiles from car parks, they bring people to their mosques on fridays to send out qassam missiles, and they even use children as physical shields from IDF soldiers. Israel give the Gazan citizens plenty of warnings to stay away from targetted areas, but Hamas hide amongst them.
    The difference my friend, is that every time the gazans send missiles to southern Israel, its aim is to kill civilians. Every time Israel launces an attack on Gaza, its aim is to get to Hamas.

    Now just to get this straight. Nazis were accountable for the extermination of 6,000,000 people due to their race, and 5,000,000 others for sexuality, race and other minorities.
    Zionism is the belief that the jews deserve land to call their own, and the right to protect that land.
    So, whilst violence should never be an option in my eyes, Israel are protecting themselves from thousands of missiles from Hamas, who have no intention to stop. So don’t you dare tell me that the war in Gaza is anything like the holocaust. Calling me a nazi is the most undermining, horrendous thing you could say to me, so take those foul words back.


    As long as you maintain a ghetto and continue to bomb it, you will be vulnerable to such comparisons.

    I will dare to call you anything I consider appropriate as long as you commit these war crimes.

    You forget, I’m not one of your voiceless sub-human Palestinians who can be silenced with your Merkava tanks and your airforce and your firebombs.

    What are you going to do — send an F16 to teach me a lesson?




    In your own words.

    ‘No matter how long I stood there, I couldn’t imagine myself into the moral void behind that man’s eyes. All I could see was the people arriving, having been tricked, lied to or brutalised into getting on the train. People with little children. Families. Old people. Artists, musicians, doctors, bakers, tailors, stonemasons, factory workers. Real people, huddling by this very railway track I now stand on, waiting for their fate.’

    This is where you become forgetful. We live sixty years on. And you know exactly what the holocaust was.
    You know that nothing similar to the holocaust is occuring now. So how about a little bit of common sense? I partly disagree with Israel’s actions.
    And I think violence should never be an option. But Nazis? That is ignorant.


    People with little children. Families. Old people. Artists, musicians, doctors, bakers, tailors, stonemasons, factory workers. Real people.



    “By partition a wedge is driven between the Arab and Jewish worker. The Zionist state with its provocative lines of demarcation will bring about the blossoming forth of irredentist (revenge) movements on either side. There will be fighting for an ‘Arab Palestine’ and for a ‘Jewish state’ within the historic frontiers of Eretz Israel (the Land of Israel). As a result, the chauvinistic atmosphere thus created will poison the Arab world in the Middle East and throttle the anti-imperialist fight of the masses, while Zionists and Arab feudalists will vie for imperialist favours.” (‘Against The Stream’ 1948)


    Hey Bock
    I’m Irish with a jewish background and let it be said that there are plently of Jews out there who are anti-zionist and are disgusted by Israel’s actions. The origin of the word concentration camp comes from South Africa where the English kept the family’s of their boer enemies. Sounds very like Gaza. Keep up the good work


    I know an a Jewish Irishman of diminutive stature who describes himself a LepreCohen.

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