Comments on: Lisbon treaty Will Probably Be defeated

By: Jack

Jack — Fri, 13 Jun 2008 19:58:14 +0000

The one thing that I’m surprised was not covered by the No campaign was the actual reason we had a referendum in the first place, a change to the Constitution;

Ã¢â‚¬Å“No provision of this Constitution invalidates laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by the State that are necessitated by the obligations of membership of the European Union referred to in subsection 10Ã‚Â° of this section, or prevents laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by the said European Union or by institutions thereof, or by bodies competent under the treaties referred to in this section, from having the force of law in the State.Ã¢â‚¬Â

To this laymans eyes this means that any EU directive/law would supercede the Irish Constitution. This to me is a huge backdoor and devalues one of the most important “documents” of the country. It is not the only reason I voted No, but this point alone would have put me in the No camp.

By: DC1974

DC1974 — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 23:40:06 +0000

Ferdia, I don’t see how other countries seeking new inward investment ties in the the Lisbon Treaty. I think this would have happened irrespective even if Ireland was or was not within the EU, it’s more of reflection of the global economy and multinationals go where they can get the lowest taxes and cost of doing business, an educated workforce, accessibility, etc.

Caoimhin, I still don’t see how Article 48 can be self amending as amendments can be proposed but
“The amendments shall enter into force after being ratified by all the Member States
in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.Ã¢â‚¬Â
which in Ireland’s case would require a referendum in accordance with constitutional requirements.

By: Caoimhin

Caoimhin — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 11:05:01 +0000

I didn’t think you were Bock, but this Treaty will pave the way to bring us in that direction. I’m not familiar with the New Zealand system but will look into it, thanks for the tip. There can hardly be fewer healthcare models than ours that are worse!
As far as greed goes that is not the answer either. Today it was announced that over 200,000 people are now on the dole in this country, all around greed is getting us nowhere fast.

By: Bock the Robber

Bock the Robber — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 09:50:41 +0000

CaoimhÃƒÂn: I’m not advocating the American model. I think we need a model like they have in New Zealand. I also think we need to confront the greed of our medical profession.

By: Caoimhin

Caoimhin — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 08:06:13 +0000

Bock: in order for healthcare to be profitable the services have to be run dispassionately, usually by insurance companies, and subject to private investors or shareholders. The government has long wanted to distance itself from the responsibility and obligation of the health and welfare of it’s citizens; but, I think we can do better than the American model.
DC1974: the last line is indeed the important one. We are having a referendum this time for one reason only, to change our Constitution. Once it is changed in favour of the EU then there will be no need for any further referendums to be put in front of the Irish people concerning EU directives.

By: ferdia2010

ferdia2010 — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 00:38:47 +0000

DC all those jobs went somewhere .. Italy has more changes of Government that Ireland ever had ….
Also you didn’t answer about all those companies in Shannon industrial estate being approached by various European development agencies when Aer Lingus pulled shannon-heathrow.
I guess that ireland got good at poaching themselves.
Anyone see Q&A ? I think you can more or less call it now the No’s have won all the debates.
Ganley was very good and really showed up the politicans. He would do a better job than B Cowen any day.

By: DC1974

DC1974 — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 23:35:22 +0000

Regarding Article 48
I have read this a couple of times and can’t find any self amendment bit. Here’s what it says about amendments:
“A conference of representatives of the governments of the Member States shall be
convened by the President of the Council for the purpose of determining by common accord
the amendments to be made to the Treaties.
The amendments shall enter into force after being ratified by all the Member States
in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.”

The last line is the important one in that it would require a referendum in our case.

By: Brian

Brian — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 23:16:08 +0000

If Ireland’s healthcare and education will be subject to competition from other european providers that can only be good thing for Irish consumers.

By: DC1974

DC1974 — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 22:57:59 +0000

Ferdia, I haven’t heard of Europe poaching jobs from Ireland as a reason for our economic decline in the 80s before. More often than not the reasons cited are internal, like the government overspending of the late 70s after the oil crisis, then the stiffling high taxes (up to 80%!) of the 80s and you never were quite sure who was in charge, what with the rise and fall of several governments.
Below is what the Referendum Commission have to say about the tax veto. (www.lisbontreaty2008.ie)
Areas to which Qualified Majority Voting applies:

At present, QMV applies to decisions on a wide range of issues including agriculture, competition rules, consumer protection, environment and judicial co-operation in civil matters. It is proposed to apply QMV to a number of new areas Ã¢â‚¬â€œ these include energy, asylum, immigration, judicial co-operation in criminal matters and sport.
Certain decisions will continue to be made unanimously Ã¢â‚¬â€œ they include decisions on defence and taxation. This means that any Member State may veto a proposed change in these areas.

By: Bock

Bock — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 22:52:45 +0000

Since healthcare and education in Ireland are already dominated by private interests, I’m not clear what will change.