Israel Murders 800 People in Gaza

 Posted by on December 28, 2008  Add comments
Dec 282008
 

UPDATE 10th January 2009

When I originally wrote this, it was titled Israel Murders 200 People in Gaza.

Sadly, I have had to multiply that figure by four, and the killings still go on.

UPDATE

18th January.

As Israeli soldiers pull out of Gaza, the Palestinian body count now stands at 1300, and Gaza is in ruins.  95 bodies have so far been found in the rubble and the search goes on.

I have no figures on the number of people crippled by the Israeli attack.

Little did I realise they’d kill so many before they temporarily ran out of hatred.  Why does the oppressor always hate the oppressed?  Perhaps it’s necessary to hate your victim if you don’t want to hate yourself for the crimes you do.

Why doesn’t Israel, of all countries in the world, understand the nature of oppression?

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Photo owned by Alvaro Herraiz

Hamas won the elections in Gaza, yet was ostracised for refusing to renounce violence.  On the other hand, I notice that the Israeli government has no intention of renouncing violence, having bombed out of existence 200 living souls today.

No intention whatever of renouncing violence, yet somehow, in the shadow world of Israeli propaganda, that isn’t terrorism.

What is a terrorist?  Somebody who attacks Israelis with a rocket.  What is a pilot who bombs and kills 200 civilians? A member of the Israeli defence forces.  The difference seems to be the delivery system.  If it cost a hundred dollars to kill children, you’re a terrorist.  If it cost 30 million dollars to kill a lot more children, you’re defending your country.

Of course there were rockets fired at Israel from Gaza.  Many rockets.  How many people did the Hamas rockets kill?  Will I tell you?

Tragically for the murdered person’s family, they killed one.

And what was the Israelis’ response? Simple.  They murdered 800 people in Gaza, the most densely-populated place on the face of this planet.  They bombed the hell out of a people hemmed in by the Israeli-built concrete wall.  Men, women and children.  They bombed their own concentration camp.

After all this violence, did you notice anyone declaring that the Israeli government had no democratic legitimacy?

Of course not. Why would that happen when Israel is backed by the USA?

That only applies to the untermenschen.  The under-people, like  Palestinians, designated by the Israelis as people deserving of oppression and murder, much like the Jews were treated in the Thirties and Forties.

God.  Have they learnt nothing?

Isn’t it appalling to think that Israel, of all countries, would define an Untermensch, the citizen of Gaza.  Someone beneath contempt.  Someone who can be killed and maimed without fear of condemnation?

Isn’t it terrible that the Israelis, of all people, would adopt the same outlook as the Nazis, and define a people as something sub-human, something with no rights, to be murdered at will?

____________________________

Bomb them when attacked. Make them sorry. Make them dead.

But get rid of the problem of Gaza.  

Why risk a single Israeli soldier? We have enough artillery and MLRS

vehicles to blast Gaza into dust.     

— Comments on article in the Jerusalem Post

(MLRS = Multiple Launch Rocket System)

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Also on Bock

Auschwitz

Gazastan, Israeli Ghettos and the New Apartheid

Zionism and Nazism : Spot the Difference

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Elsewhere:

Robert Fisk

Irish Times.  Israel Exaggerates Hamas’s Abilities

Two Views of the Attacks

Reuters

Why Israel Won’t Allow Journalists Into Gaza

Streets of Gaza Flow With Shit

Eyewitness

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  80 Responses to “Israel Murders 800 People in Gaza”

Comments (80)
  1.  

    Hypocrisy in Action:
    Where were Egypt, Russia, OIC, EU, Britain, Sarkozy, US & Austria when Hamas was pounding Israel with daily barrage of rockets?

    http://muslimsagainstsharia.blogspot.com/2008/12/hypocrisy-in-action.html

  2.  

    uh, nice try. the rockets did not only kill one. they killed only one today. gaza militants have been firing rockets into southern israel daily for months now. even though israel evacuated gaza. even in the presence of a “cease fire”.

    dozens of israelis have been killed. mostly civilian.

    its long past time israel responded. they decently waited for the cease fire to end. they decently targeted military personnel and installations.

    but this lie put out by hamas that they have no control over the daily rocket attacks cannot be listened to any longer.

    they are responsible. they must be attacked with overwhelming force until the rockets no longer fire.

  3.  

    Michael you might want to read this Talking, not force, is the only solution in Gaza

    It makes a good point and violence is not the solution, because it only feeds Hamas

    Bock, Excellent post.

  4.  

    Michael,
    Israel can’t hide behind it’s lies any longer. You’ve said that “its long past time israel responded. they decently waited for the cease fire to end. they decently targeted military personnel and installations.” There’s a lot of mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters in Gaza that would disagree with you right there. Is it “decent” to kill people? No!

    and then
    “but this lie put out by hamas that they have no control over the daily rocket attacks cannot be listened to any longer.” If you don’t give an elected government the benefit of the doubt then produce evidence, otherwise, equating Hamas’ situation with the Irish government’s in the 70’s and the IRA, you’d be granting the British government full permission to bomb the crap out of Dublin. I wouldn’t be too impressed if I was living in Finglas and the Brits decided to rain hellfire missiles on my next door neighbours and destroyed my house in the process. Would you?

    and you’ve also said that
    “they are responsible. they must be attacked with overwhelming force until the rockets no longer fire” Who? Who must be attacked? Who’s responsible? Israel is inflicting collective punishment on an indigenous people. This against the rules of war, the UN charter on human rights and international law. They are murderers, that’s all. The people who are launching the katusha rockets are also murderers, but Israel have no “right” to attack anyone without direct lawful mandate from the UN. Do they have this? No. If they are able to directly target the people responsible for the rockets then they’d have my blessing. But “collateral damage” is and always should be unacceptable.

  5.  

    michael, maybe you are unaware of certain historic events??
    the israeli attack on gaza presently, is well timed and well planned, it is like “shooting fish in a barrel” the israelis have systematically hemmed in gaza, also the timing for this attack is interesting, the israeli elections are feb 2009, and with barak obama almost sitting at the desk, surely cutting military aid to israel will appear on the agenda ? with the state of the american economy, how much longer can the jewish lobbyists in washington demand the billions spent on military support for israel.
    the “israel defence forces” is a lie unto itself, the israeli army is an occupying force, not a defence force.
    many aspects of israel/palestine conflict are very very similar to what happened in NI the big difference is that where the catholics in NI gained more rights, the palestinians have had less and less and less
    hamas is no more representative of all of palestine than the ira were of all of ireland, but they are the elected party who have provided for its people.

  6.  

    Also on the subject of Hamas spreading lies, it’s funny but i didn’t know that both major and independant media outlets were puppets of the mighty Hamas regime…
    In fact some of the most scathing reporting on Isreal’s behaviour in Palestine comes from elements of the press within Isreal itself. But they must be Hamas puppets aswell…

    I think the comparison you drew with the attitude of the Isreali government and the Nazi regime provides a classsic example of the circle of abuse, the abused becoming the abuser, the bullied becoming the bully.

  7.  

    Why don’t you go ahead and kill them all, Michael? Exterminate the untermenschen and let that be the final solution to your Palestininan problem.You know that’s what you want to do, and after all, they are sub-human, aren’t they? That’s why Israel is able to put them in sub-human conditions in their concentration camp.

  8.  

    Muslims Against Sharia? I notice that one of your team members, Pamela Geller, (AtlasShrugs.com) also has a blog called Jewish Mothers for Palin. So the term Muslim now includes Neocon Jews who want to ban Islam, does it?

    I don’t believe K McGinn is a Muslim either, nor Allan W Janssen.

    Another member, No Compromise, uses a seven-branched menorah as his avatar: the symbol of Judaism for the last 3000 years. Hardly a committed Muslim.

    Joel C Pousson isn’t a Muslim either, and nor is Dave Gaubatz. Ki sarita is Jewish. I can see one team member, Tarek Fatah, who might be Muslim.

    Isn’t it interesting to see a group composed of Christians and Jews calling itself Muslims against Sharia?

    And isn’t it even more interesting to see such a group accusing others of hypocrisy?

  9.  

    bock.whereas i know you are very liberal with regard “self expression” on your site, i have a deep abiding reserve in my rants, however this time i am going to cut loose, so forgive me in advance.
    muslims against sharia. your preposterous, hypocritical, propagandaist site is downright fucking tripe, what is tripe? other than sheeps stomach its rubbish, your terminology and descriptive nonsense is highly indicative of the bullshit diatribe you could only get away with in cyberspace……muslim, i think not.
    michael. have you been to israel/west bank/gaza,? if you have not then i strongly suggest you grow a pair of balls and get on a plane, then entertain all of us on your return.
    the first recorded terrorist act was commited by “irgun” a militant zionist group of whom the head was one menachem begin, a polish jew, they blew up the king david hotel in july 1946, said bomber mr begin became the 6th prime minister of the state if israel in 1977,he recieved the nobel peace prize in 1978, he retired in 1983, disilliousioned and reclusive, he died in 1992…..terrorism, hypocrisy, power, blindness, regret, suppression, ethnic cleansing, apartheid, law breaking, landgrabbing, murder, genocide, suffering etc etc its all there michael, go the fuck and visit it.

  10.  

    Hard to blame you for being angry, Norma. These Americans always appear after a post like this, to spin their pre-packaged nonsense.

    It’s now quite clear that Israel has decided some people, principally those who live in Gaza, are sub-human and can be killed without feeling guilt.

    This is the same mindset that has fuelled genocides throughout history, including the mindset that tried to exterminate Jews. You would hope that Jews, of all people, would understand how wrong this is, but apparently nothing has been learned from all the suffering.

  11.  

    Do zionists really believe in religion or just that that religious texts conveniently tell them that they are the ‘chosen people’. Lucky them if that’s the case, though I would say to the leaders of Israel, that they may treat survivors of the holocaust better than they have been doing. There was an excellent documentary on the elderly (now) survivors who emigrated from eastern Europe to Israel in the hope of a peaceful life and were treated abominably by the Israeli government. Bock, if that is true that people are being called untermenschen that is truly sick. F$£k nationalisim and religious fundamentalism.

  12.  

    Elle — I haven’t heard anyone using the word untermenschen to describe the Palestinians, but I am saying that the Israelis are acting exactly as if that’s what they believe.

  13.  

    AtlasShrugs.com eh.. jesus, that about says it all.

    You should read the book Atlas Shrugs by Ayn Rand (alleged mistress of Philippe Rothchild), then google the Illuminati. Nice little eye up there in the address bar too. Apparently she liked the book very much, did Ms Geller but anyway, it’s getting off the point.

  14.  

    the minister of foreign affairs in israel, one Tzipi Livni, was a liutenant in the Israeli army, then recruited by Mossad and sent to Paris in the early 80’s on a “terrorist hunt” she was in active service when Mamoun Meraish, a leader in the PLO was shot dead by a mossad hit squad on 2 motorbikes in Athens in 1983…..reminiscent of ?
    Her parents were members of Irgun and had both been jailed for planting bombs and robbing trains.
    she also called for the resignation of ehud olmert, accusing him of taking bribes from american businessmen……for what ??
    she wants to be prime minister of israel, she stated to-day “we have taken great lengths to avoid civilian casualties” ……sorry, very bad job then ??
    she recently stated that when, (not if) she became prime minister, her primary objective would be to “bomb Irans nuclear facilities” and they call Hamas a “terrorist organisation” way too many questions there, what exactly is the Israeli definition of “terrorist”
    i’m probably going on too much…but if we criticise our government are we anti irish
    if we criticise the EU are we anti europe
    if we criticise the church are we anti christian
    if we criticise each other are we anti human
    strangly if we criticise the actions of the state of israel we are anti semitic

  15.  

    Great post, Bock

    Now we all need to write to Cowen et al and insist that they call in the Israeli Ambassador to explain/consider his position

    We could email Peter Power at foreign affaiirs by going here
    http://www.foreignaffairs.gov.ie/home/index.aspx?id=28836

  16.  

    she is Israeli prime minister and ex spy is she not?

  17.  

    elle she is minister of foreign affairs…..only while she is waiting to be prime minister, ex spy apparantly yes

  18.  

    This is a re-run of the Israeli attacks on Lebanon. I also compared the Israelis with the Nazis in my sonnet “Message to Israel” written at that time.

    Message to Israel – August 2006
    O Israel, how, so quickly, you’ve forgotten
    the holocaust in which your people bled.
    Now, to the very core, your soul is rotten;
    you’ve lost your way and find yourself abed
    with nazidom. Whoever would have thought
    a people, rescued from the depths of hell,
    could fast forget what your religion’s taught
    and mercilessly slaughter those who dwell
    within your range, whatever age or sex,
    guiltless or not. The child dies and the mother;
    and as they die you tender your “regrets”
    in sheer hypocrisy, then kill another.
    A new and different Burning Bush now leads
    you on to hell as Lebanon softly bleeds.

  19.  

    john good sonnet
    to-day the death toll in gaza totals 318
    israel states 200 hamas members dead
    israel states 51 palestinian civilians dead
    i’m no mathematician but are the 67 remaining dead nobodys?
    1400 people injured
    israel agreed to specific crossings of their borders between gaza and israel were to be manned by palestinian security forces in 2005, to date that has not been implemented.
    there is one border crossing open at present, and that allows minimal aid to enter gaza, NOBODY is allowed access to israel from gaza at this time.
    gaza hospitals, of which there are 9 are fast running out of vital supplies, palestinians who are not killed directly by attack will die from lack of medical intervention, and other factors.
    i have not purchased an israeli product since 1984, i would strongly urge others who have empathy for the plight of the palestinians to do likewise, of course it is too little to late, but better than nothing.

  20.  

    Bock says “Hamas won the elections in Gaza,..” as though that made them somehow OK. It gives them no more respectability, than the election of the Nazis in Germany in the 1930s made that crowd an OK organization. Be honest, Hamas is a lying, cowardly, revolting, terrorist, organization who prey on their own people and use impressionable, stupid, and on occasion, mentally retarded people as human bombs. Then they use civilians as human shields. Their aim is to wipe Israel off the map and they have no interest in a peaceful settlement.

  21.  

    -Silverfox
    Every guerilla force uses civilians as human shileds by your definition and one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.

    Of those who are forced to chose, there are those who will chose to fight.

    Isreal is committing what could be catagorised as a slow genocide on the Palistinians. And remember, Isreal did wipe Palistine off the map, bar two tiny enclaves that they are now taking care of.
    Hamas have the same legitimacy as the government of Isreal

  22.  

    If Palestinian extremists attack and kill Israeli women and children living in an illegal west bank Jewish settlement I lay some of the blame on the settler movement because it is wrong to use civilians for political gain by exposing them in danger.

    In my mind the same applies in Gaza. While the Israeli air strikes are clearly disproportionate Hamas should be condemned and share some of the responsibility for the high levels of civilian casualties. They are wrong to fire rockets at Israel and then hide in highly populated civilian areas. Israel has a history of going after those that attack it. If they continually fire rockets Israel, Israel will respond and civillians will be killed. It is always wrong to use civillians in war.

  23.  

    Since the Six-Day War Israel has whittled away its moral standing as a state. It went absolutely into the red, morally, when it allowed the slaughter in the Lebanese refugee camps.

    Israel has been terrorising people for years and it has promoted terrorism throughout the Middle East and the Muslim world. It is a process that serves vested Israeli interests and includes territorial expansion, the creation of apartheid-style enclaves, and the destruction of Christian Arab leadership in the Middle East.

    Israel does not want peace. It wants the displacement and distruction of the indigenous peoples of Palestine. That is genocide and a criminal violation of the rights of those people.

    I don’t care what the majority religion is among Israelis, only that it must be morally bankrupt if it stomachs the actions of the Israeli State.

  24.  

    Silverfox — Despite your rhetoric, I’m sure you know perfectly well that Hamas does not have the capability now to destroy Israel, and will never have that power in the future.

    It is not a crime to question the legitimacy of the state of Israel. Many people around the world question the legitimacy of a state founded on ethnic cleansing and genocide. Will you send F16s to bomb all of those people too?

  25.  

    Israel deserves criticism for its actions, but not its existence. “Many people around the world question the legitimacy of a state founded on ethnic cleansing and genocide”. States included in this category: Canada, USA, Mexico, Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Bolivia, Peru Columbia and many more.

  26.  

    That’s correct, but they weren’t all oppressed in the way the Jews were. I find it amazing that a people who experienced such horrors could go on to dehumanise and murder others.

  27.  

    “Canada, USA, Mexico, Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Bolivia, Peru Columbia and many more…”

    So, historical precedent makes it ok? Have we not evolved?

  28.  

    Bock

    I take your point. You think a historically persecuted people should be less likely to persecute. I disagree. I think its a case of the abused becoming the abuser. I noticed you traveled to Auchwitz recently. I have been to Dachau. My main peace of thinking on the holocaust is that it is simply impossible for non Jews to understand the long term psychological impact that the Holocaust has had on the Jewish people. So frankly Israelis are less concerned about “dehumanising” others and more worried about defending the Jewish people in their new Jewish country with a determination and a ferocity that us non Jews will never appreciate or understand.

    Conan Drumm

    No it doesn’t make it ok. But I have never heard anybody question the legitimacy of those countries.

  29.  

    I’m not saying the Israelis should be less likely to persecute. I’m saying their indifference to the suffering of others amazes me, and I’m also saying their manner of acquiring the land of Israel was by a criminal act of ethnic cleansing. That’s why their talk of terrorists rings so hollow in my ears.

  30.  

    -Ted
    The indiginous people’s question it. Ireland questioned it. It should be questioned.

    I think that it is dangerous to focus too much on the Jewish part of it. Religion has always been used as a way to cloud the issue. In the North it was Catholic/Protestant when that was not the issue at all but we fell into the trap of using the jargon repeated over and over again by media and politicians alike.
    Invasion, Occupation, Oppression and Genocide are all fairly cut and dried issues but when we muddy the waters with religion the dicussion becomes abtract, much less clear. We can lose sight of the very real human cost and engrained beliefs effect our opinions.

  31.  

    Religion is an integral element in the creation of Israel. It can’t be otherwise when those carrying out the ethnic cleansing do so in the belief that their cause is justified by Scripture.

  32.  

    Conan Drumm says:
    “Israel …has promoted terrorism throughout the Middle East and the Muslim world.” How can anyone hold views which reverse cause and effect so radically. Israel as a state is constantly under terrorist threat and the Jews as a people are under the same constant threat everywhere in the world from Islamic extremists, as witness the recent atrocity in Mumbai – where they were again particularly targeted. Israel has a right to defend itself, and we have a duty to help it – not make nonsensical arguments of genocide against it.

  33.  

    Argue how you will about the legitimacy of the state of Israel, always remembering that no country was willing to open their doors to them post WW11, the fact remains that there is no country on the planet that has been as relentlessly harrassed by its neighbours and has done as relatively little in response. Try to imagine any major power enduring that kind of constant attack for sixty years without responding in shock and awe mode, to borrow a horrific trope. Civilian deaths are always going to occur when a military group, in direct contravention of the rules of military engagement, position themselves in the middle of civilian areas. It isn’t a question of who has the biggest gun but rather from where you choose to fire it. I doubt that the Palestinians in Gaza were given a choice by Hamas as to where thier rocket launchers were positioned.I would also be curious to know how many Hamas stuck around once the Israeli counter attack started.
    One final point, what purpose is served by the repeated use of the german expression untermenchen except to suggest a ludicrous connection between the political agendas of the state of Israel and those of Nazi Germany.

  34.  

    Silverfox – It would help if you could define exactly what you mean by the word “terrorist”. Could you do that please?

    Paulo — Can you please state your understanding of how Gaza came to be so heavily populated?

    Can you also, please, explain in what sense the rules of military engagement apply to people subjected to an occupying force? If your country was invaded, would you check what rules applied, or would you simply resist?

  35.  

    let the them at it,World affairs turn in cycles,and in the distant future,the ‘shoe will be on the other foot’,and Israel may recieve hell,’cause soon it’l be a an atom bomb in a briefcase….then what we gonna do?,and when the ‘nationalists’ eventually have the north here,do ya think they’l not give the prods a kicking?….course they will…I write this from a Tel Aviv ‘puter store…

  36.  

    Just an average night as the three scobes run from Johnny’s house after firing stones through his window.

    Johnny comes running from the house, threatening them and such.

    But the scobes, who have vowed to drive Jonny out of the estate, have been at this for months now and Johnny’s bark is much worse than his bite.

    Meantime, back in the scobes house, the elder scobe is chillin out watching a vid. The promo includes an intro from a well known tv personality.

    “Hi, my name is Troy McClure. You may remember me from such films as “Having Fun—damentalism with Allah, or “The Jihadist that Shook the Barley.”

    The younger scobes are listening to the latest hit song in the Sharia top 30, “Suicide is painless – as long as you take 30 Jews with you” by that well known combo Abdul and the Prophets.

    The song is surging up the charts and music chiefs are confidently predicting that it will hit number one spot for Ramadan.

    The other scobe is watching a latest release.
    “Suicide bombing Made Easy.” The vid features a beyond the grave exclusive from one of the seven virgins he’ll get to shag. “Oh
    your beard is sooooo looooooong” she purrs suggestively…..

    Question, if the male suicide bombers get to shag seven virgins, what do their female counterparts get in the afterlife? Seven burkas from top designers? “Does my nose look big in this”?

    Suddenly the peace is shattered as the front door flies off the hinges.

    Here’s fucking Johnny, who proceeds to wreck the place and bat everyone in the house.

    The scobes call the Guards and the media.

    “I mean like, he bate my father with a bat and we were doing notin, like. Will the social welfare crowd cover the damage, like?

    The guards issue a statement condemning Johnny for his disproportionate response, the scobes get a slap on the wrist.

    “The scobes are eternal victims and cannot and be held responsible for their actions”, part of the statement reads.

    Johnny picks up the paper the next day and laughs.

    “Disproportionate response me bollocks”.

  37.  

    paulo. “major power enduring constant attack for 60 yrs, without responding in shock and awe mode”
    so, for those 60 years, the fact that Israel has persistently and systematically eroded every possible means of growth, development and survival of the palestinian people, by compromising their education, livlihoods, by bulldozing their homes, taking their lands, dividing the lands of farmers, making it impossible for them to eke out a meagre living, by bombarding them with their very superior american backed firepower,so this to you does not fall under the catogory of “shock and awe” ? i could go on even to giving you examples of women giving birth while in in a line waiting to cross “the wall” and dying in that line, your comments are uninformed, also the use of the term “untermunchen” is entirly accurate and relevant, although your objection to it appears to be that it is a “german term” it was introduced by the Israelis themselves to describe their own elderly jewish community who survived the concentration camps.
    silverfox “human sheilds” you may have fallen foul of the Israeli manipulation and propaganda, which is as powerful as their firepower, also this is not a “pro hamas” post, but if your description of “hamas” is accurate, then surely you can prescribe the same terms to the Israeli government who are made up almost entirly of ex military and mossad, and the direct descendants of the “irgun” this same government have flaunted every single law and convention governing warfare, surely “hamas” may have taken a leaf or two out of their book ? i too would ask you to kindly define your perception of the word “terrorist” ?
    johnnypiles; if you sent your tuppenceworth from a “tel aviv ‘puter store” then you are just as much a world away from what is happening than anybody else

  38.  

    Paulo — I stand over my use of the term Untermenschen. That is exactly how Israel views the Palestinians and how it treats them.

    The ceasefire held firm until Israel deliberately broke it in November by killing six Palestinians while the world was watching the US presidential elections.

    This bombardment of Gaza is not in any way a defensive action. It is, in reality, a cynical move to create political facts on the ground before Obama takes office, and in the run-up to the Israeli elections.

    Abdul — Your point seems to be that all Palestinians deserve to be killed. That’s called genocide.

  39.  

    -Abdul
    Your metaphore is off the mark. The Palistinians are not living off the Isreali state. Isreal is taking away the means for Palistians to subsist by taking their land and destroying their infrastructure. Palistine is almost infinitly out gunned by Isreal and so could not be considered a menace or bully.

    But well writen and funny none the less.

  40.  

    Well-written, funny and wrong.

  41.  

    There is no right or wrong to the original folks.
    It was just an observation on the nature of “thangs”. Hamas (the scobes) keep breaking the blokes windows and insist he has no right to exist. Then one night they find him in their hall with a baseball bat – and he’s not there to enquire about their health – whose to blame? How and why did he get here? Would he be in the hall “batting” for Israel so to speak if Hamas were not threatening his very existance? Make your own minds up. PS, the IRA, much smaller that Hamas, were outgunned by the British Army, much bigger that the IDF, and they were very much a menace, all terrorist are, because as the founding father of modern terrorism, Michael Collins taught, only engage the enemy on your terms.

  42.  

    Your analogy doesn’t work. If you were being attacked by criminals, you would not be justified in killing all their neighbours and their families. It’s a false comparison you’re making.

  43.  

    -Abdul
    This “Israel’s right to exist” phrase seems to be dropped alot. What about Palistine’s right to exist? To my knowledge Palistine is not taking over Israeli territory.
    Why do you think Hamas exists? Why has it any support base in the Palistinian community?

    Maybe Johnny lives in a council house surrounded, not by scopes in the traditional sense of the word, but by rich scopes with 4×4’s, big houses and superiority complexes.
    Maybe Johnny’s council house is sitting on land that these scopes need to finish the 18 hole golf course for their country club.
    So the scopes build a big wall around Johnny’s house and won’t let him in or out with out their say so, to intimidate him and remind him daily of his position in life.
    Maybe every time Johnny tries to fix up his council house so that he might be a little more self sufficiant and not have to rely on permission from the scopes to go to the shops, they come and smash his house up.
    And when Johnny has had enough and throws stones over the wall surrounding his house, maybe the scopes throw boulders back and then smash through his living room wall with bulldozers.

    p.s. anyone who has ever stood up to oppression and tyranny has been a terrorist. The people who fought in the Irish, French, and American revolutions were terrorists. The republican movement in the Spanish civil war and the French resistance, terrorists. As you pointed out yourself Michael Collins, a terrorist. Even Ghandi was branded a terrorist.

  44.  

    abdul; the “scobes” would’nt have found “johnny” in the hall with a baseball bat, they would have peeked through the keyhole of the scullery to see “johnny” and his family living in their house.
    on another note, the debate focused on the legitimacy or not of israeli gov/hamas is somewhat detracting from the plight of the palestinians at this time, whatever party they are affiliated to is nearly irrelevant, this action has been condemned globally with the exception of the british and americans, these people have no place to go no place to hide.
    do some people think that if the palestinians had never tried to hold on to their civil rights, homes etc that the israelis would have lived peaceably side by side with them ? ammmm no that would never have happened.

  45.  

    It would be a false comparison if viewed in the context of how nations behave during peace. But both sides are now engaged in all out war
    and are obviously not concerned with collateral damage. With one side, deeply paranoid, trigger happy and convinced that their existence is
    again under threat, and the others raison detre underpinned by a sworn allegiance to Islamic Jihad, death laden rhetoric, and martyrdom, the innocents will suffer.
    It is all profoundly depressing, enough to make you lose faith in humanity. Meantime, I believe there will be more turmoil to come as Israel will have a shot at Iran’s nuclear facilities
    before Obama is sworn in.

  46.  

    Gaza 2008….Warsaw getto 1943…similar I think. Is this the last attempt by War Criminal Bush and Co. to get WW3 going. A good war will do the global economy (or America’s) the world of good. Is there no shame?

  47.  

    Sounds like stleger norma is an Israeli born that lived there all her life, she speaks as she has a monopoly of knowledge of the situation while she is full of crapt, one sided paranoid propaganda fanatic obsessed by Muslim sexuality.
    Amazing the Palestinian are angels like all other fanatic Muslims.
    Give me a break

  48.  

    Good post, good discussion, good moderation. Chapeau!

    As there are so many (“useful”) idiots and barbarian bastards involved the matter’s become a bit complex (for me).
    For the beginning I’d like to learn the answer to the question:
    Cui bono?

  49.  

    scot brown; i am neither israeli or muslim, i have definitly not spent my life in israel, i do not have any religious affiliations, but i respect all who do, were i to lean toward a religious persuasion it would probably be buddhism, but i have no commitment to religion.
    i am aware that the refusal by hamas to accept the oslo peace process, their refusal to accept the state of israel, their insistence on establishing an islamic state in the region is unacceptable and unworkable.
    i am aware that there are many moderate israeli jews/israeli arabs/palestinians, but their voices are drowned by the violence on both sides.
    however, i stand firm on civil and human rights issues, the facts are there for anyone with an open mind to investigate.
    i have not posted anything on this site which could be termed “fanatical” but yes, my heart does bleed for the palestinian people trapped in this conflict, the people who are displaced, sick, terrified,who see no future and have no place to go.
    in other conflicts, there are places to flee to, borders to cross, in gaza…..nowhere.
    your anger seems directed toward the facts which i posted on this site…..thats all they are facts.
    muslim sexuality…..what?

  50.  

    The conflict is carried through generations as people are brought up to hate each other, as happened in the North. The Israelis think they’ll get the palastinians to like them by bombing, starving, walling them in, blockading food, spare parts, and medical supplies. Ethnic cleansing is illegal, or so I thought.

  51.  

    Just to make sure: Writing my com(pli)ment I thought I was the 47th.
    @ Norma: Quite.

    And now: The peace of the night.

  52.  

    The bloggers on this site excel at live blogging, -ignorant, superficial media influenced blogging – the “15 minutes of fame” motivated blogging.

    Chanukah in Sderot and area was spent indoors due to the unending rocket attacks by Hamas – courtesy of your much admired terrorists from Gaza.

    Chanukah was moved into bomb shelters and the sound of the Code Red alert now screams through communities on a constant basis, followed by loud booms, smoke and fire.

    If your families were living under these circumstances, you would expect your government to take the necessary steps to protect you all.

    The Israeli assault came in response to incessant and unprovoked Hamas rocket fire on southern Israel. But because the Hamas rockets failed to kill more than a handful of Israelis, the world views Israel’s killing of some 300 Palestinians – most of them terrorists – as completely unacceptable.

    Under international law, a country, including Israel is not required to adjust its use of force precisely according to the size and range of the weaponry used against it by its enemy.

    To satisfy international law, Israel need only direct its use of force against legitimate military targets, and not the civilian population. But even when civilians are killed in such strikes, Israel is not to be held accountable under international law.

    According to figures released by the Palestinians themselves, only 15 out of the 230 people killed in Israel’s initial wave of attacks on Gaza were civilians. Clearly, the target of Israel’s use of force was Hamas, not Gaza’s wider population.

    Israel like any other country at war is permitted to use the proportionate amount of force needed to bring about an end to the threat to its citizens as rapidly as possible.

    It has nothing to do with comparing the strength of Israeli bombs and fighter jets to Palestinian rockets and suicide bombers, or the numbers of dead on both sides. Numbers matter less than the purpose of the use of force.

    Israel’s use of force only becomes “disproportionate” if it goes beyond the legitimate objective and purposefully targets civilians for unnecessary harm.

  53.  

    Damn right. Let’s kill them all and get it over with.

    After all, they’re only Palestinians, not real humans like you and me.

  54.  

    Mazel Tov Block.

    You just confirmed my assessment of this site’s bloggers.

    Your response makes absolutely no sense in relations to the statement on international law of warfare.

    I neither stated nor suggested that all Palestinians should get killed or that Palestinians are not real humans like you and me. This is your out of content statement, not mine. The loss of any civilian lives is truly regrettable.

    I merely stated that from an international legal perspective no country in this world has to or would calibrate its use of force precisely according to the size and range of the weapons used against it by any aggressor – in this instance it’s Hamas.

    When Palestinian militants launch rocket attacks from civilian areas, they are themselves responsible – and no one else is – for the civilian deaths caused by Israeli counterfire.

  55.  

    -Eire Jew
    The loss of any civilian lives is truly…regrettable?

    In your comments you accuse the commentors on this site of;
    -ignorant, superficial media influenced blogging
    – the “15 minutes of fame” motivated blogging

    and then follow it up a spiel that could have come straight from the mouth of Bill O’Reilly. You could write for Fox News.

    You said;
    According to figures released by the Palestinians themselves, only 15 out of the 230 people killed in Israel’s initial wave of attacks on Gaza were civilian
    A UN Spokesman said at least 57 civilians, including 21 children, have died as a result of the bombardment.
    Were those 21 children (or Islamic fundamentalist, jiihadist, extremist, suicide bomber terrorists [thought to have links with Al’Qaeda] as you might call them), killed by bombs that Israel is apparently not responsible for, other than the fact that the dropped them, legitimate objectives?

    Your bullshit ‘collateral damage’ attitude is as fake and pretentious as your psuedo-intellectaul comments.

  56.  

    Eire Jew — Your assessment of people is irrelevant. Stick to the point.

    Gaza is your concentration camp. You set it up. At least have the guts to admit that bombing your own prison will kill innocent people, instead of sinking to anaemic formulas like “regrettable”.

  57.  

    one of the reasons given for the invasion of iraq was its failure to comply with 18 UN resolutions. israel on the other hand have failed to comply with around 91 resolutions. this figure could be more if the usa had not exercised its veto against resolutions condemning israel over 50 times. yet i don’t see any invasion of israel being planned.
    anyone of the opinion that israels actions are correct, should ask themselves was the aparthied system in south africa correct? because in my view that is what israel has created, an aparthied state.
    if you are held captive by someone, deprived of water, work, electricity, restrictions placed on your movement, food shortages, suffer breaches of basic human rights pretty soon your going to be pissed off. and if it seems to you that no help is available from the outside, where your captor ignores the instructions from others to stop its actions, pretty soon your going to fight back.
    the difference between the nazi state of germany and israel today? the germans eventually put you out of your misery.

  58.  

    Israel should be charged with war crimes for this Gaza horror. Pathetic response from the western leaders. What a way to start a new year.

  59.  

    http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/mediaclips/DombInterview.cfm?v=1QfgvDXsDds Look up the web site jews against zionism. Historically, theologically the ‘state of Israel’ was never supposed to exist. The English wanted out in 1947, they betrayed the arabs and in 1948 we have a made up segregated country called Israel. The true jews, are against a jewish state. It is like the Irish deciding a few hundred/thousand years later deciding that the celtic people amongst us, want to live in our homeland – (northern Germany or wherever the celts came from and force out the inhabitants of that area). The ‘jews’ in charge in Israel are secular who conveniently use the bible/torah for their own means. The inhabitants of Israel today are from all corners of the globe and not indigionus to that area. Yisroel Weiss a rabbi claims zionism is wrong and that jews should live among the nations of the world peacefully. judaism is a spirituality not a race according to him. The actions of Hamas are wrong but I have more sympathy for their cause then these so called ‘Israelis’.

  60.  

    You may have to start moderating your posts one of these days:
    Check it out.

  61.  

    Hmm. I suppose they’ll soon be sending the F16s to get me.

  62.  

    Fuck me, the Israeli government is all about making friends these days, well spotted Benny.If these guys are going to continue with a ‘Fuck You’ foreign policy they could have at least had the decensy to hire some spin doctors.

    Bock, I wouldn’t keep an eye on the sky in fear of planes if I was you. Remember poor old Mordechai Vanunu and the honey pot. You’ll just have to become celibate. It’s your only hope.

  63.  

    Why did the chicken cross the road?

    To get away from the Israeli bombs.

    For fucks sake lads its only a chicken.

    Why did the chicken cross the road?

    To get away from Hamas bombs.

    For fucks sake lads its only a chicken!

  64.  

    The world could stand by and let “the” holocaust happen, I suppose things have not changed. The world still stands by!

  65.  

    The posts on this site, with one or two exceptions (Abdul and the Prophets “parable of Johnny and the scobes” was brilliant if a bit understated) , make for depressing reading.
    Are those people who favour Hamas over the Israelis aware of who exactly they are supporting. They seem to believe Hamas is a kind of Palestinian version of Labour or the Greens. Far from it.
    http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html
    Hamas and its sister organisations are liars, cowards, terrorists and religious bigots, who would drag us all back to medieval ignorance if given the opportunity. The frightening thing is that some of us would go along willingly.

    A few people, Bock included, have asked me to define what I mean by terrorists.
    I use a simple rule of thumb. If the target appears to be of a military nature, I don’t consider the operation terrorist. If non- combatant civilians are deliberately targeted this is terrorism. Siting military operations in the middle of civilian areas as for example practised by Hamas, is equivalent to terrorism in my view.
    Twist it whatever way you want, but Israels actions are fully justified, and long overdue, in self preservation and self defence.

  66.  

    Gaza is a ghetto, the most densely populated urban area in the world, created by Israel as a holding camp for the people it displaced from their homes in southern Israel. Bombing such a ghetto will always kill innocent people, but when the bomber is also the jailer, there is no escape from culpability.

    There is no moral equivalence between the hundreds of Palestinian deaths in Gaza and the tens of Israeli deaths caused by the rockets.

    Your rule of thumb is flawed: Israel decides what is a military target, and then does the bombing. This is why Israel has felt able to kill so many terrorist children, and terrorist teachers and terrorist policemen and even terrorist peace workers. Not to mention terrorist journalists.

  67.  

    The word terrorist and it’s selective use is interesting. Silverfox’s version would excuse many IRA bombings of military targets and killing of Army personnell by improvised landmines and remote detonated bombs. Mrs Thatcher would never describe the IRA as freedom fighters, though, would she? Interestingly the expession “IRA terrorist” rolls off the tongue more easily that of for example “UVF terrorist”, as the latter in British and Irish media were more often referred to as “gunmen” or “paramilitaries” by those media. as in “UDA paramilitary – IRA terrorist”. To get into a debate as to what the word “terrorist” means is futile. Remember Nelson Mandela once was head of ANC, branded a “terrorist” organisation, and having carried out the bombing of civilians dining in restaurants etc. What about “urban guerillas”? One thing is for sure there are a lot of terrorised people in Gaza tonight.

  68.  

    Here’s an alternative definition everyone can use. “Because I am always right, a terrorist is anybody who resists me”.

    How would the Israelis categorise Menachem Begin’s involvement in blowing up the King David Hotel, killing 91 people? Terrorist or freedom-fighter? You decide.

    Incidentally, the Menachem begin Centre described those deaths as regrettable.

  69.  

    One man’s terrorist is another man’s soldier. Whether a cause for the use of violence is just, or not, is the real debate, not what name you put on the participants. And as far as that goes people will always be supported to fight injustice. There’s little chance of Hamas militia getting support from their communities if there is nothing wrong. Maybe there’s just a TAD of a reason for the Palastinians to be to be just a TAD pissed off enough to support a military response insofar as they can. Is this whole thing not just an opportunistic attack before Bush gets out, which will end with another land – grab by Israel?

  70.  

    Tommy — I’m afraid the terminology is more important than that. If you can characterise somebody as a “terrorist” or an “insurgent”, it’s easier to stop thinking of him as a human being with a family and with legitimate grievances. The Israeli government have been using the word “terrorist” for years to describe anyone who disagrees with them.

  71.  

    Bock: “Muslims Against Sharia? I notice that one of your team members, Pamela Geller, (AtlasShrugs.com) also has a blog called Jewish Mothers for Palin. So the term Muslim now includes Neocon Jews who want to ban Islam, does it?”

    Are you really that much of a retarded fuck as your picture shows? Otherwise, why would you confuse someone who contributes to our blog with members of our group who are CLEARLY marked as Muslims Against Sharia?

    stleger norma, could you be more of a dumb nazi cocksucker? You don’t give a shit about Muslims, you just hate Jews.

  72.  

    I’ll leave that comment in place just this once to show what sort of lowlifes belong to Muslims Against Sharia. It speaks for itself.

  73.  

    -Muslims Against Sharia
    Your comments do not address one single issue. They show you, and the organisation you represent (which would seem on the surface to be a valid and just cause, to fight against the image many muslims suffer from due to the actions of muslim countires who implent sharia law) to be the real retards. That’s a shame.
    Your comments to stleger norma are completely unfounded. Her comments have been anti-Israelian (as in the government and military), not anti-jew and you should be ashamed of yourself for your ignorance. Are all muslims in favour of sharia law? Do all muslims think adulterers should be stoned to death? No. You claim to speak for muslims with a modern world few but you are quite willing to mix Israeli and Jew.
    Well I don’t care about muslims, or jews. I care about people. Their favourite fairy tale is their own business, and Israel is the one behaving like Nazis. You are an idiot and an insult to progressive muslims everywhere.

  74.  

    muslims against sharia; The vitriol with which you responded was quite reassuring.

    Aparantly your prescribed response is.
    “We usually ignore idiots, unless we can make fun of their stupidity”

    Inverted compliment then.

    Your “blogsphere” is saturated in inaccuracies, lack of substance and an ill concealed veil of aggression.

    You have stated you do not give public interviews or allow photographs, because a “third of muslims want you beheaded”
    a touch of paronia based on self importance perhaps ?

    You accused President elect Barack Obama of “being supported by every kind of radical muslim”

    I have never believed your blogsphere to be linked to Islam.
    Rather, I have found it to be a baseless forum on which to hide your real agenda, which you seem to think you can vent on this site, un noticed by those you imagine you impress.

    Religion and moderation are opposing forces and you reinforce that belief.

  75.  

    Things like this make me so mad. Israel is just so full of anger and hate and deceit. The bottom line is that the Hamas terrorists are radicals, they are not openly supported by citizens of Gaza and they are not controllable by citizens of Gaza. On the other hand, the precise way in which Israelis literally murder innocent civilians including women and children with their military is barbaric and disturbing. The fact that their actions are accepted and praised by their citizens is horrifying. A few palestinians are murderers. The entire country of Israel is a bunch of murderers.

  76.  

    Isreal are plain simple murderers, I can not see how anyone can say they are not.
    Seriously, what’s up with everyone looking the other way when stuff like this is happening.

  77.  

    [Mod Edit. Comment by illiterate anti-Jewish idiot from England deleted]

  78.  

    After what the Nazis did to the Jews, and all the pitty that the world’s nations have shown them, and they end up just as bad, if not worse than the Germans during World War II. Israelis are one of the richest ethnic groups in the world and hold many financial stakes in America and elsewhere throughout the European countries, so it very logical to think that the propaganda that is spewed forth from Zionistic opporated media outlets have more at stake to lose than Israel’s “sovereignty,.” How can you claim sovereignty when you haven’t truly had any true land or nation in 1000’s of years; only since the last half centry have they had a “country.” A country stolen through bloodshed and political subterfuge. I say that Israel needs to be put in its place once and for all, and that the Western world needs to grow some nutts. And as for the Muslim countries that support Israel’s murderous ways for monetary and political gains, may Allah curse you in this life and in the Hereafter…Ameen.

  79.  

    You left a comment on my site. Here is my response.

    Here is a hard truth that many miss. Who are the Palestinians and what claim do they have to the land. If you want to believe their original argument- that the Jews ran them off in 48, you would have to create “ownership”. Who was there first? The Jews can trace their lineage back thousands of years, can the Palestinians? (Define what is a “Palestinian? Is he like an Indian here on the land before Europeans arrived? Is he Persian like in Iraq? Is he Asian with a written history tracing back five thousand years like China? Who is he? You need to define before you can make the claim of ownership.)

    Let’s agree for a moment both have a right to be there, why isn’t there peace? The Israelis respond to attacks. Attacks are “responses to affronts” the Palestinians view as hostile, in their opinion. First they lay claim to a land. Good or bad, right or wrong. Valid or invalid. THEN they say “you are on my land” thus I have the right to murder your babies. The madness of the argument, the poison it brings to THEIR populace (seriously handing out candy?) is indefensible. It also eliminates the argument that the attackers were “radical.”

    So let’s be honest here. It isn’t about the land. It is about hatred of Jews. The same hatred that has haunted that culture for thousands of years across the globe. Palestinians are the the newest and easiest manipulated group of haters to come along. Yet, for the first time in several thousand years the Jews have a place to fight back from. And it is driving parts of the rest of the world crazy. You think the Jews believe the Palestinians are “subhuman?” The definition of being called subhuman belongs to how the Jews were treated throughout history by other cultures. For example, Jews were blamed and murdered in Europe for things like the Medieval plague. So being picked on and considered subhuman is something the Jews can probably relate to better than any other culture.

    If Israel were your house and the same type of hatred and attacks occurred on your land by your neighbors for sixty years you would respond in the same fashion if not with more violence. That is human nature. The worst part of this is you can’t negotiate with hatred. It’s is blind to reason.

    Further, if the Arab world was truly supportive of the Palestinians being “without a homeland” they could easily cut off a piece of their vast territory and give it to them. But neither the Palestinians NOR the other countries want that. Palestinians would have to learn how not to hate and do something else (obviously creating a decent civilization is beyond them- see how they do without the billions in support they get from us and other nations- much of which Arafat and others stole), but more importantly the rest of the Arab world are REALLY the ones who consider them trouble and “subhuman”. They are in a sad way the Arab version or our ghetto/project dwellers, considered not worth the trouble and frankly more trouble than they are worth. I don’t think it is fair. All people should be respected and on an individual basis I’m willing to bet a good number are no different than the rest of us hard working people. But they have made a pretty nasty bed for themselves by teaching generation after generation how to hate another people because of their faith. Be fair for a minute and ask yourself this- Name another culture who televises children wishing for the murder of others outside this one? Even the Chinese under Mao did not do things like this and they were very bad actors.

    It is what it is. I am sure if given the chance Israel would put down the guns, there is no victory in it for them to continue to fight against the Palestinians. It just they can’t, and that family is one reason why.

  80.  

    So according to your ”logic” then the Anglo Saxons for an example would have no right to be in England as they only arrived in the fifth century even later than the Palestinians settled in Palestine..where would you suggest they go?.Your idea about the Arab states giving some of their ‘vast” territory to the Palestinians has some merit but not the way you think.I suggest the USA gives some of its vast territory to the Israelis.I am sure a few million Americans would not mind uprooting and becoming refugees to make way for their ”friends” whom they have always expressed such support and love for.Then the two countries could live side by side and engage in a mutual love fest …problem solved and the middle East could be left in peace.

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