Categories World Israeli Goods Post author By Bock Post date January 13, 2009 124 Comments on Israeli Goods List of Israeli goods HERE It's only fair to share...TumblrStumbleUponRedditPinterestFacebookDiggTwitteremailLinkedin Related ← Blind Gun-Dog — Monsters of Rock → Cloyne Sex Abuse Case — Cardinal Brady Stands By Magee 124 replies on “Israeli Goods” Holy shit that’s comprehensive. Where’d you get it? And I did your special request. I got it from HERE. Be careful with it though. There are some things I didn’t like, such as identifying Intel microprocessors as Israeli-made only. Thanks for the Magee pic. That’s excellent. I’ll link to it immediately. Just four days before this round of fighting began, the Hamas parliament passed a sharia criminal code, legalizing, among other niceties, crucifixion. Yet Israel is loathed worldwide, and the Palestinians are crowned with halos. Most would be surprised to know that after the USA and Canada, the foreign country with the most listings on New York’s NASDAQ stock market is Israel, despite the country’s volatility. Can you imagine what Israel can accomplish in peace, without having to spend a quarter of GDP on defence? Can you imagine the benefits to the Palestinians? A boycott of Israel is a misguided. And if you’re going to do it, do it properly! Let me help you. Check all your medications. Make sure that you do not have tablets, drops lotions, etc., made by Abic or Teva. It may mean that you will suffer from colds and flu this winter but, hey, that’s a small price for you to pay in your campaign against Israel, isn’t it? While we are on the subject of your Israeli boycott, and the medical contributions to the world made by Israeli doctors and scientists, how about telling your pals to boycott the following….. An Israeli company has developed a simple blood test that distinguishes between mild and more severe cases of Multiple Sclerosis. So, if you know anyone suffering from MS, tell them to ignore the Israeli patent that may, more accurately, diagnose their symptoms. An Israeli-made device helps restore the use of paralyzed hands. This device electrically stimulates the hand muscles, providing hope to millions of stroke sufferers and victims of spinal injuries. If you wish to remove this hope of a better quality of life to these people, go ahead and boycott Israel. Young children with breathing problems will soon be sleeping more soundly, thanks to a new Israeli device called the Child Hood. This innovation replaces the inhalation mask with an improved drug delivery system that provides relief for child and parent. Please tell anxious mothers that they shouldn’t use this device because of your passionate cause. These are just a few examples of how people have benefited medically from the Israeli know-how you wish to block. Boycotts often affect research. A new research centre in Israel hopes to throw light on brain disorders such as depression and Alzheimer’s disease. The Joseph Sangol Neuroscience Centre in the Sheba Medical Centre at Tel HaShomer Hospital, aims to bring thousands of scientists and doctors to focus on brain research. A researcher at Israel’s Ben Gurion University has succeeded in creating human monoclonal antibodies which can neutralize the highly contagious smallpox virus without inducing the dangerous side effects of the existing vaccine. Two Israelis received the 2004 Nobel Prize in Chemistry. Doctors Ciechanover and Hershko’s research and discovery of one of the human cells most important cyclical processes will lead the way to DNA repair, control of newly produced proteins, and immune defence systems. The Movement Disorder Surgery program at Israel ‘s Hadassah Medical Centre has successfully eliminated the physical manifestations of Parkinson’s disease in a select group of patients with a deep brain stimulation technique. For women who undergo hysterectomies each year for the treatment of uterine fibroids, the development in Israel of the Ex Ablate 2000 System is a welcome breakthrough, offering a non-invasive alternative to surgery. Israel is developing a nose drop that will provide a five year flu vaccine. These are just a few of the projects that you can help stop with your Israeli boycott. But let’s not get too obsessed with my ducal research, there are other ways you can make a personal sacrifice with your anti-Israel boycott. Most of Windows operating systems were developed by Microsoft-Israel. So, set a personal example. Throw away your computer! Computers should have a sign attached saying Israel Inside. The Pentium NMX Chip technology was designed at Intel in Israel. Both the Pentium 4 microprocessor and the Centrum processor were entirely designed, developed, and produced in Israel. Voice mail technology was developed in Israel. The technology for the AOL Instant Messenger ICQ was developed in 1996 in Israel by four young Israeli whiz kids. Both Microsoft and Cisco built their only R. & D. facilities outside the US in Israel. So, due to your complete boycott of anything Israeli, you can now have poor health and no computer. But your bad news does not end there. Get rid of your cellular phone. Cell phone technology was also developed in Israel by MOTOROLA which has its biggest development centre in Israel. Most of the latest technology in your mobile phone was developed by Israeli scientists. Feeling unsettled? You should be. Part of your personal security rests with Israeli inventiveness, borne out of our urgent necessity to protect and defend our lives from the terrorists you support. A phone can remotely activate a bomb, or be used for tactical communications by terrorists, bank robbers, or hostage-takers. It is vital that official security and law enforcement authorities have access to cellular jamming and detection solutions. Enter Israel’s Net line Communications Technologies with their security expertise to help the fight against terror. SO ALL THE NOISE ABOUT THE USA LISTENING TO OUR PRIVATE TELEPHONE CALLS, YOU SHOULD KNOW IT IS ISRAEL WHO IS DOING THE LISTENING FOR US. A joint, non-profit, venture between Israel and Maryland will result in a 5 day Business Development and Planning Conference next March. Elected Israeli companies will partner with Maryland firms to provide innovation to the US need for homeland security. I also want you to know that Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees to the population in the world. Israel produces more scientific papers per capita – 109 per 10,000 – than any other nation. Israel has the highest number of start-up companies per rata. In absolute terms, the highest number, except the U.S., Israel has a ratio of patents filed. Israel has the highest concentration of hi-tech companies outside of Silicon Valley. Israel is ranked #2 in the world for venture capital funds, behind the USA. Israel has more museums per capita. Israel has the second highest publication of new books per capita. Relative to population, Israel is the largest immigrant absorbing nation on earth. These immigrants come in search of democracy, religious freedom or expression, economic opportunity, and quality of life. Believe it or not, Israel is the only country in the world which had a net gain in the number of trees last year.Even Warren Buffet of Berkshire-Hathaway fame has just invested millions with Israeli Companies. So, you can vilify and demonize the State of Israel. You can continue your silly boycott, if you wish. But I wish you would consider the consequences, and the truth. Think of the massive contribution that Israel is giving to the world, including the Palestinians – and to you – in science, medicine, communications, security. Pro rata for population, Israel is making a greater contribution than any other nation on earth. Pass this on to everyone you know, whether pro-Israel or not……………… ‘thesystemworks’ suggests sarcastically that the great intellectual achievements in Israel are things we wouldn’t like to do without. But the same human beings doing the same work could achieve the same benefits even if the geography happened to be named the Ottoman Empire or the British Mandate in Palestine, or perhaps even in Birobidzhan. If the indigenous population had the same resources available who is to say that they couldn’t come up with anything useful too? But the whole list of products detailed are completely beyond my needs, maybe I’m just lucky that way. I don’t have a Windows PC, I don’t need a mobile phone. As for academic excellence, how many PhDs are there among your educated intelligentsia in Peace? You have got your nuclear weaponry but so far you haven’t used it, I hope. Only the Americans have dropped a weapon on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I don’t think the Japanese were that advanced in their nuclear industry though Germany had tried shipping so much to them. I see only Israeli herbs in my local supermarket, and now even next to them packets saying they are from West Bank. Maybe with a bit of peace we could even get the same herbs from Gaza. In the meantime I grow my own anyway. So I don’t think a boycott would work. But peace might. The one thing your egotistical listing of per capita achievements doesn’t include is Peace. That’s the best thing that could be given to the whole world without a patent or a usurer taking a cut in the process. No profit for the bank, no patent in the vault. And that’s the contribution that Israel just doesn’t have in its power to give. Congratulations â€˜thesystemworks’, just goes to show what can be achieved when one is free to work… and the is the point. No matter what is achieved it all counts for naught if it is gained through repression. In 1949 when a tract of land was set aside for the jewish people most of the world was with them. Well done, somewhere to call home, finally – even if it was all based on a work of fiction any sane person would have laughed out of court . But that wasn’t enough. By condoning the taking of land, the illegal settlements, the building of a wall to imprison the rightful owners of the land, by stealing the water and justifying killing they lost all right to be called decent. So well done, your universities produce the goods but the cost is too high. Treat the rightful owners decently, give them back what is rightfully theirs, stop holding up the bible as if it gives you some divine right to act as you do (that fucking book is the cause of more trouble in this world – for fucks sake…). Admit the state is Ah fuck it. what’s the use. people are dying… Bock, I for one am returning my Dolphin swimming pool cleaner by Maytronics. Granted I will need to clean the pool by hand and Flipper will be annoyed but it is a small price to pay for freedom. Lets get a grip here guys. A lot of what the systemworks says is true. Israel is the second biggest source of venture capital funding in the world and the developments they have made in medical and electronics are significant. As far as I know they have been made by education and hard work and government support (which our government should take a good look at) and not by exploitation of any people. What is happening in Gaza is terrible but asking for a boycott on Israeli goods and services is futile and meaningless. I am still confused as to the world’s fascination with this part of the world. Genocide, slaughter and starvation kill more people in one day in Darfur and yet the silence is deafening. The US illegal occupation in Iraq continues to claim lives but McD’s and all other US companies in Ireland remain unaffected. If we are so morally offended by a bigger nations actions against the weaker then why do we still do business with the UK, travel and spend our cash there. I think what Israel is doing is wrong but I also think what Hamas is doing is also wrong. I don’t fully understand the Gaza thing but have travelled much of the West Bank and would like to understand why that is so much more peaceful than Gaza even though both areas are predominatley Palestinian controlled territories. I imagine all Palestinian women and children are giving thanks for Israeli technology. PheasantFukker — If you’d like to see a post about events in some other part of the world, feel free to suggest a topic and I’ll see what I can do. However, events elsewhere don’t diminish the crime being committed in Gaza. Therefore, these posts about Gaza will continue. Its illegal for any corporation to boycott israeli goods apparently….http://www.bis.doc.gov/news/2002/umustcomply11_4_02.htm ….and I thought we live in a democracy. Something stinks here AFAIK, the ‘yes to carrots’ brand is israeli made w dead sea minerals this brand is all over ireland after a big marketing campaign in the last year, competetively priced and most irish girls would’ve at least tried it in the past year Zionism is not omnipotent. It operates in a vacuum created by the lack of a leadership which fights for a united mass opposition to bigotry, racism and imperialism. (For united, secular, socialist). A boycott plays into the hands of the Zionist state by aiding it in it’s endeavour to push as many Israeli Jews to the right by sowing confusion and fear. The only reason the Zionists have not extended their slaughter exponentially is out of fear of radicalising masses of Israeli Jews, and confused sympathisers abroad, They proceed as all reactionaries have always done, step by step. Until they believe the mass oppostion is totally bankrupt. Quote “The New York Times is the leading media organ of US liberalism and is closely aligned to the Democratic Party. In recent days it has planted a series of propaganda pieces disguised as news articles, which aim to justify Israel’s war crimes in Gaza.” Hi Bock, i’m not trying to diminish what is happening in Gaza. There is a genuine humanitarian crisis in Gaza and I do beleive that Israel and Hamas are not justified in their actions. My point is that throughout the globe there are areas of conflict like this (Burma, Congo, Sudan, South America etc.) in which atrocities are committed but receive very little media exposure. What is it about the Middle East that causes it to be so prominent in our media focus? If I were to follow your logic I’d better boycott all products from the Muslim brotherhood too given their treatment of women and gays and kafirs. Better add the US too after Iraq and Afghanistan and Guantanamo, not forgetting they took all that land from the native Americans. Damn all of Africa goes too on human rights abuses. Let’s see – South America, nah human rights rules them out. China, hardly……….Of course I’d buy nothing British either since they sent those settlers over here to displace us natives……That’ll teach them. PheasantFukker and Dan Dare — The points you make are known as whataboutery. Raising unrelated matters to distract attention from the issue. Both are fine examples of Point 2 in Fintan O Toole’s excellent article “Six-step Guide to Justifying Atrocities”. pheasantfukker. “have travelled much of west bank and would like to understand why that is so much more peaceful than Gaza, even though both area’s are predominatly Palestinian controlled territories” On your extensive travel through the West Bank, did you encounter any of the 500 roadblocks? Did you attempt to access any of the 700 kms of major roads accompanied by an person of Arab nationality ? Did you visit any of the 19 refugee camps ? Did you attempt to book a flight leaving Ben Gurion int airport for a friend of Arab nationality ? Since when is 17% of land owned by Palestinians in the West Bank termed “predominatly Palestinian controlled” Bock, I’m confused as to how acknowledging that Israel and Hamas are wrong, that Gaza is a humanitarian crisis and that atrocities are being committed is justifying them. I am wondering why the Middle East creates such polar views in people and why it continues to be a major media focal point as compared to the Congo, Sudan, Burma, Colombia, Zimbabwe etc. My intial reponse was in relation to the suggestion of a boycott on Israeli goods. I posed the question that boycotting Israeli goods shows a certain closed mind approach when taking into account the US, the UK or other countries with a much worse civil rights record. As I already said, those are valid issues to raise, and many have already been written about here. No doubt many others will also be written about in the future. However, this post is not about the US, Congo, Sudan, Burma, Colombia or Zimbabwe. This post is about Israel and its current activities in Gaza. By the way, did anybody notice that the word Boycott doesn’t appear anywhere in the title or the body of this post? I think the reason that the Palestine/Israeli conflicts have attracted such media and public attention is that here we have what purports to be a sovereign democratic nation conducting terrorist activities against a relatively unarmed civilian population. I don’t think many people would support the activities of Hamas but the fact that they are first and foremost a terrorist organisation with no real regard for the welfare of the Gazan people does not excuse the cruel bombardment by Israel of the innocent women and children in Gaza. I’m not sure of the effectiveness of a boycott of Israeli goods but it might make us feel better about ourselves. In the long run Israel couldn’t give a toss about the opinions of the rest of the world as long as the US backs its actions unreservedly. -thesystemworks Bock said; By the way, did anybody notice that the word Boycott doesn’t appear anywhere in the title or the body of this post? Do you think he was subliminaly invoking a boycott? OMG Fintan O’Toole is your reference point, please spare me. Whatboutery, is that how you respond to criticism of your blunderbuss approach? Whatboutery you’re suggesting would be neither effective nor moral and I gave you equally absurd comparisons. Whatboutery I refer you to point 1 of Dan’s Guide To Avoiding Answering Points of View Opposite to Your Own Because You Cannot. Nobody supports the killing of civilians but this conflict is not as black and white as you paint it and cutting and pasting this list shows a lack of judgement. I hope it won’t affect any innocent people working for any of these companies because you and your like-minded cohorts decide to blacken their name. c’est; was just about to refer to your previous post re; “subliminal evoking…..” must be a touch of mind sync ! Dan Dare; Its extremely black and white when the IDF shepherd (ironic) a large family into 1 house, then proceed to shell the house, then refuse to allow ambulance and medics in for 4 days, 2 young boys, age 5 and 6 both severly injured, no food no water, had to remain amongst their dead relatives for 4 days…..no sorry i’m wrong, its not black and white, its totally BLACK AND BLACK how would “Divestment “sit with the populace as opposed to” boycott “? Dan Dare — Excellent. A fine example of several obfuscation techniques: 1. Question their motives 2. What about .. ? And a few things Fintan overlooked: 3. Bluster 4. Shouting. 5. Irrelevant comparisons. Nice one Dan. You’re excelling yourself, even by your own standards. and you’re living up to your standards of scarcasm and hypocrisy which really come to the fore when your underlyihg prejudices are even mildly questioned. Good day to you sir. kings bard; On a whole other level and a whole other place in time I might even agree with you, but not now. I had a “brush” with an “unstoppable force” earlier to-day, as in a large animal mowed me down, for that brief flash of time, when I thought I might have “had it” the most basic instinct of fear and survival consumed me, it brought into very sharp focus why we might be consumed by the unspeakable tragic circumstances in Gaza, because it is a massive onslaught on our senses, the unbearable suffering of innocents, the fear, the pain. We can discuss, debate the policys, the politics, the history in an intelligent (and not so, on occasion) forum, but it’s the down and dirty basic human death and destruction that most humans find the desperate need to add their voice to. Whatever we continue to debate, there is a large and urgent concensus for it to STOP. -Dan Dare You forgot to call him an anti-semite. Good day to you sir Harrumph! Hell no missyour craic I’m sure he’s a good old sort. He has good tste in music and likes Leonard Cohen you know. Our problem is with the medium and his errors of judgement. I’m simply trying to help him to a greater level of self-realisation in site of the slings and arrows well bock, would’nt you know Lennie would save your rep. You need’nt worry about the f16’s any more, or the name calling from the “others” if someone said Good day to you sir/madam” to me, i’d be heading for the hills…..building a bunker? Good day st. ledger norma On Aljazeera today two separate Israeli spokesmen said that Iran is the root cause of Hamas belligerance. Is there a new agenda? Iran is remaining very quiet about the whole affair. The economy could turn out to be the least of our worries. Yes Dubya not gone away yet you know.. I might get a good deal on the bunker then, what you think Kings ?(abbreviation required because you are too scary) not to worry i got my comeuppence this evening, a belt in the head from half a ton of muscle tends to do that. Is it ominous that Iran is so quiet…..or is this really about Iran? World domination ? Iraq, Iran Afghanistan, thats some tract of the world. Maybe we should start consulting Jim Corr…? Ahem were the U.S. and Israel not the supporters of Hamas in the late 80’s, guess Iran had a better offer then. My most sincere apologies to Kings Bard, confused moi, My “too scary” response was of course directed toward desperate dan, oh there I go again mea culpa Mr Dan Dare. Oh there is absolutely no need to apologise to me st. leger because look as I may, I still cannot find the reason. I understand you have had a dramatic and somewhat traumatic day and hope you manage a speedy recovery. Ab imo pectore. As a person who used to work for Baccara in the Jezreel Valley, a company on Bock’s list, I can tell you that the place employed many Arabs, mostly from Nazareth. In fact, while I was working there a European journalist came by for the purposes of penning a piece on it being a model of co-operation between Arabs and Jews. Many Arab men and women worked there alongside Hassidic women, former refusniks (I picked up a little Russian in my time there!) and the ‘factory snitch’ happened to be an Arab Christian. I guess it’s my personal experience with the place that really shocks and angers me about the idea of anybody boycotting such a company’s products. A boycott is blind to the reality on the ground. Many under the Palestinian Authority made their living in Israeli companies, before the unfortunate security measures introduced in the wake of the Second Initifada. But a lot of Palestinians from the West Bank still do. many thanks Mr Dan. No drama, no trauma for me, quite used to to-days non event, just relayed the flash fear by way of comparison to the unspeakable fears endured by our fellow man and for which I had a momentary emphatic experience. Now tucked up in my own comfort zone, I am just back to the dull pain I have been feeling since this mass murder began. If I may ask, you “cannot find a reason “for what exactly ? I am well aware that Bock is a master of his own defense , therefore mine is unnessecary, however, do we not love his site for precisly the reason you have criticised? He says it like it is He challenges us, He displays compassion, reality, humour and a healthy dose of cynicism in precise amounts, and sometimes he hits us where it hurts, but he makes us think, and re evaluate our fixed ideas and is that not what we would define as progress ? Many under the Palestinian Authority made their living in Israeli companies, From my understanding,Palestinians havent got much of choice but to work for Israeli Companies? Thesystemworks. How many Palestinian run companies did you come across during your time in Israel ? Also Israel is not laying seige to Israeli Arabs, Were there many Palestinians employed by the company you worked for? -st.leger.norma I’ll say this about Jim Corr, right or wrong, if believes what he said (and I’m sure he does) then it took a lot of balls on his part. the system works: 12 Israelis dead over a decade, 900 Palestinians and counting dead. All Palestinians are not members of hamas. The Israeli govt are wrong wrong wrong. Go look up Naom Chomsky (a man born to jewish parents) on you tube and look at his views – he is far more qualified than me to explain this situation better. This bull of justifying the horrific actions of the Israelis because hamas are deplorable is just sad. Hypocrisy at its best. I bet the Israeli people who are involved in all the great things you mentioned agree with me. Anyone who invests time in making changes for the good of the many would not support the murder of innocent women children and men. 7300 rockets since Israel withdrew from Gaza, Elle. Even if they don’t kill into the hundreds, like Hamas would relish, normal life has still been interupted for innocent residents of Sderot. What on earth do Hamas think they are gaining? Maybe dead Palestinians are more valuable to them than dead Israelis, so they can win the media war. And you can add to the ‘puny’ 12 (it’s actually almost thirty) Israeli casualties to the 1300 Israelis kiled in the Second Intifada this decade. What is a proportionate response to rocket fire anyway? If Hamas suddenly got Israeli style firepower, how do you think they would conduct an assault on Israel? It would be a real genocide. All wars raged against Israel have been wars of extermination, the stated aim being to drive Jews ‘into the sea’ or wipe us off the map or something along those lines. That’s not how Israelis do things. And this has gotten off the subject of a boycott. Also, st.leger norma, there are plenty of Palestinian owned business in the West Bank/Gaza. Wonder if they would hire any Jews? Israel gives well over a million arabs equal rights and Israeli citizenship. Many Paelstinians on the other hand would rather have no state than one which lets 600 Jews live in Hebron. Palestinian nationalism and movements like Hamas reek of hatred, prejudice and racism. Not so mainstream Zionism. BTW, Baccara did hire a few residents of the West Bank. By chance, and maybe due to the unfortunate security measures none worked there during the time I was. There were some working in the area, but favourable geography concerning employment opportunities would really be in other areas of the country. If my aunt had balls she’d be my uncle. Are you trying to justify the slaughter of Palestinians on the basis of what Hamas would do if it could? c’est la craic. another thing about Jim corr – He’s got a couple of mighty fine lookin; sisters. or is that a different Corr/ Also re Iran is the root cause of Hamas belligerance (#31) do ye remember Irans neighbour, the late lamented Saddam, and his offer to provide lump sums and pensions to the families of suicide bombers in Jerusalem. That was only a year or so before WMD appeared on the scene… It’s seems it’s best to stay quite when talking about dealing with Isreal in any other way except tourism… thesystemworks: Who’s defending hamas and why do you keep going on about them? Nobody has any respect for hamas’ behaviour. The fact that life is disrupted in Sderot is better than having your legs blown off. There are many jews who abhor the state of Israel and recognize it as illegal. Most of the zionists don’t give a sh*t about what judaism stands for and it certainly is not about doing what the Israeli govt is doing in Gaza. They have dirtied the name of judaism, they are merely terrorists with bigger and better guns. They are not even indiginous to the area. You go on about Israel welcoming foreign nationals. All jews bar a few are ‘foreign nationals’ to that region. They took the land off the people who lived there for thousands of years and the English betrayed those people. I quoted you Chomsky for he himself is a jew and a man whose views I greatly admire. Judaism is a religion not a race. To equate religion with race is stupid and dangerous and makes no sense. Ridiculous waffle as ususal I didn’t justify force on those grounds, Bock. I merely wanted to call attention to the different mindsets of the Islamist and one interested in the peace and security of the State of Israel. Elle I can’t believe you’re one of the many who believe that tripe. My Zionism does not make me hate anyone, or contradict my Judaism. Why don’t you label Irish or American patriotism as racist? Israel is not an illegal entity – to say that is to justify Iranian leaders seeking the extermination of all Jews in Israel. And what the hell are you bringing up race for? I never did. Judaism is many things. The best analogy is to compare it to being in a large, extended family – the Jewish people. More scientifically, however, one may say it is a tripartite division between a religion, national identity based around Eretz Israel and a cultural/ethnic group. All Jews share these elements, in varying proportions. You clearly know nothing about Torah or Judaism, Elle, so don’t you go labelling what Judaism is and what’s best for Jews. hey thesystemworks i wouldnt care how many medical breakthroughs the jews make. they kill and injure many more than they save the only way to hurt a jew is in his pocket i for one would like to see a list of products that is of interest to the average joe. i will never need an autoclave, or deburring tools so i can never boycott them. just things i come across on a daily basis. i was shocked to see that intel is a jew controlled/owned company, but i wont throw away the processor as you suggested,that would be stupid but next time i will buy AMD Thesystemworks — I wouldn’t stray too far into the mindsets of the Israelis if I were you. We could spend all night analysing your attitude to the Palestinians, and you might not come out of it looking good. Stick to the point. There are 1.5 million people under bombardment from your army. They are imprisoned in a ghetto behind a wall constructed by you. You will not let the civilians leave. This is a war crime. I hope people are prosecuted for this. hey thesystemworks put you fucking cards on the table what race/religion/nationality are you? and have you ever been to isreal ? and if so, in what capacity? Jacksnipe — Confine your comments to Israel’s actions and less towards Jews. Behave yourself. the old testament is part of the torah is it not? If not it is certainly jewish, so I know that much. Zionism is what then? You can’t just go plonk yourself down where you feel you’re entitled to because some ancestors lived in a place thousands of years ago. And if that’s what you decide to do don’t destroy the poor creatures whose families lived there already for centuries. I don’t have any regard for patriotism either. Yes I agree judaism is about brotherhood and looking after each other and that’s commendable but also jews have taken pride in living throughout the world living in peace for centuries and maintained their vibrant culture and good luck to them. If the jews had hatred for the way christian cultures treated them over the centuries I would understand that, but the muslim and jewish people lived peacefully together in that region before the British left in the late 40’s. The European jews that live in Israel are no better or worse than their muslim neighbours. What’s going on is not an eye for an eye, it’s an eyeball for an eyelash. Never mind the Torah or the Talmud or the Koran, or any other religious nonsense. This is about women and children dying under the bombardment of an army. Thesystemworks You may have misinterpreted my question, I asked if you had encountered many Palestinian run Companies, that is very different to a Business but I do ask you, is there a pervasive ideology that Jew’s invest their sense of perpetuity in the State of Israel, in its current form ? Do you think that there are those who sought to make Zionism compatible with peaceful co-existence with their Arab neighbours, both Israeli Arabs and Palestinians, and those who used it as an excuse for military aggression, and still do ? With regard the topic on this post, (boycott was never mentioned) If Israeli produced goods were not purchased, what effect do you think that would have on Zone A in the West bank or on Gaza ? Hey, Bock, how come you’re not putting up my list of Jewish Nobel Prize winners whose achievements jacksnipe the ignorant pig can boycott? Is the list just too long?! Because I don’t see this as a Jewish issue. This is about a war crime and it doesn’t matter who happens to be carrying it out or for what reason. Jacksnipe has already been warned. I will not tolerate that sort of thing. Yes st.leger norma, there are Zionists interested in peace. A true Zionist and Jew is always interested in peace. One person’s memory that I hold very dear is the late David Baum. Professor David Baum who was Britain’s leading Paediatrician and President of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health from 1997-99 played a huge role in lowering infant mortality around the world through his advances in medical research. He travelled the world over, from Thailand to Moscow, establishing best practice child health care. He was also a proud religious Zionist. David Baum’s final endeavour was assisting in the establishment of a world-class paediatric facility for Palestinian children in Gaza City. UK Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks in his book gives David an honourable mention as a shinning example of how to heal a fractured world, which involves reaching out to our adversaries as much as our friends. That brand of Zionism is my brand, too. I long for an era of shalom/salaam in the middle east. Israel has always sought peace with it’s neighbours, when there are viable partners. It’s in Israel’s own interest. Practically everything we captured in 1967 has been traded for the sake of peace. Just because I love Israel, and feel it’s my homeland, and love Jews does not make me hate Arabs. I love the mid-east, I love Arab muslim culture, from the food to the nargila! Too many Israelis and Palestinians have died before their time, and I think the two-state solution is the most realistic one to stop this. Look how easily one can travel between Israel, Jordan and Egypt. Countries once at each other’s throats. I want to be able to do the same between Israel and the West Bank/Gaza. I want to smoke nargila with the Palestinians in Hebron someday in security. I have always happened to like the Palestinians and Arabs in a social setting, Israel has accomplished so much in its short and troubled existence, I would love to see what more we could accomplish in peace. And I feel the Arabs under the PA can do the same too, they are self-respecting and highly decent people, with a lot of potential. But because I don’t like seeing Jews murdered, and love the fact that a Jewish state exists in the region, and want to defend it, I am considered a bigot. That’s all very interesting, but it doesn’t change this fact: civilians are being bombed and Israel won’t let them escape. This is a war crime. This entire post is to Thesystemworks. can you please explain the following…. “Declaration of Independence” “The establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine” “Promising to uphold the full social and political equality of all its citizens, without distiction of Religion, Race or Sex” also promised…. to draw up a constitution “not later than 1st oct 1948” Israel never drew up that constitution. Instead Israel relies on 11 basic laws, which only include elements of a constitution. How many villages have been destroyed, then leased by the JNF and the State for exclusivly Jewish settlements. Law of Return. A piece of legislation passed in 1950, giving any Jew with a Jewish Grandparent citizenship in Israel, when Rabbinical law states that a Jew must be born to a Jewish mother Mitzpe; Literal translation “lookout”. exclusive Jewish rural settlements developed in 80’s and 90’s to attract middle class Jews to live in Arab heartlands but guaranteeing them the capacity to watch over their Arab neighbours to ensure they do not build and thereby reclaim land the State has confiscated from them. I could go on all night long asking you to explain the myriad ludicrous laws and legislation passed to drive Arabs/ Palestinians from their lands and homes, but i’m only making myself angry and taking up even more space here. For fucks sake, whats with the “Black goat Law” For anyone who fell for all the WMD, Terrorists in every corner bullshit of the Bush years, Israel will be the terror source of the next era, except that it isn’t bullshit, its very very real. Norma — Sorry, but this isn’t the place for that debate. Keep the focus. This is about what’s happening today in Gaza. We can have the historical debate another time. I don’t want the discussion sidetracked. The systemworks; If you sincerly long for Shalom/Saleem, then stand up and shout for it man, talk is cheap, very cheap, you won’t find Shalom by supporting a Government that has the blood of innocents on their hands for decades. sorry, got sidetracked. I’m too angry, better sleep. good night bock Civilians are not being bombed indiscriminately. In the initial airstrikes of Cast Lead, 95% of hits were so-called ‘alpha hits’. Right on target. That’s better than anybody has ever done in a situation like this, not even the U.S. in Iraq or Afghanistan with their resources worked that hard to hit the enemy, not the civilian. Hiroshima or Dresden Gaza is not. And how do you propose, Bock, we let a million and a half people ‘escape’ for the duration of the conflict, and hope the enemy doesn’t escape among them. This is war, shit happens, particularly in urban environments. Israel tries to pinpoint the terrorists to kill. Many recent operations have seen a ratio of 29 combatants to 1 civilian killed. That civilian is not a statistic, he or she was a living person, and that’s still tragic. But it’s a different approach to the suicide bomber who goes to the most crowded are in the market to kill as many women and children as he possibly can. Or the guy who goes into the school to shoot as many yeshivah students as he can. Heck, that person can always shoot at a patrolling soldier or a policeman, but to these people, killing the civilians is more virtous. There is unfortunately a culture of death that has swept accross the Islamic world. A few years ago, I’ll never forget the story, Palestinian terrorists payed a 6 year old child one dollar to cross the border with a package. They planned to deliver it to a contact on the other side, or if that failed, detonate it at the checkpoint if discovered. One of the boder police sniffed what was going on, and managed to diffuse the device, which the terrorists were attempting to detonate from a distance once they realised the jig was up. They returned the boy to his parents. His mother then went screaming to the media that the Israelis had tried to rape her boy when they caught him, after they had in fact saved his life. st.leger norma, the Constitution has always been a vexed question, but Israel has always been in such political turmoil that its passing and potential make-up just isn’t going to happen or be decided on soon. Israel is not just a state for the rabbis either. While I think Halacha should be an important influence in Israeli law, it is not the only consideration. In the Soviet Union, ‘Jew’ was put on your passport if you had a Jewish father, Soviet Law made you a Jew in that horrid place. Nazi law made you a Jew too. Israel has been conscious of this, and taken in these people. I know it’s further complicated the ‘who is a Jew?’ question, but why on earth do you care about that issue? Civilians are not permitted to leave the Gaza strip. That is a war crime. Since you refer to terrorists, how terrified do you imagine the civilians of Gaza are? The Israeli attacks are also terrorism. bock; just letting you know Sameh Habeeb, the “blog” from Gaza you posted, is live on Al Jazeera right now, this guy is running all over Gaza city to recharge his batteries and continue his daily report, brave brave man. Thesystemworks; One does not have to subscribe to any race,religion or politics to care deeply about a human issue. the systemworks,there was a zionist interested in peace he was called Rabin,now whatever became of him?.And how obscene that with all the medical wonders produced in Israel that wounded people are dying in Gaza hospitals for want of basic medical supplies.Seems the only Israeli tecnological wonders the Palestinians see are those that come screaming out of the sky. Bock, evey reasonable school of philosophy, theology, jurisprudence, and common sense distinquishes between deliberately targeting civilians and inadvertantly killing civilians while tageting terrorists who hide among them. If Israeli actions constitute terrorism, of which we must refrain, how on earth is anybody going to stop the Hamas attacks? In fact, warfare against any aggressor would be impossible to follow your logic. Our enemies want to target Israeli civilians, Israel wants to target the combatants. This is not a war crime. To say so would label any war ever raged to be a war crime if civilians got hurt, including the Allied invasion of Nazi Germany. After all, didn’t thousands of German kids die in the fall of Berlin? You are quite wrong. Preventing non-combatants from leaving an area of conflict is a war crime. If it is not possible to evacuate non-combatants, hostilities must cease. Even as a law student, I have limited knowledge in this field. And it’s 2AM, dammit. This article in Commentary seems to have all the legal technicalities considered: http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/totten/48801 You quote to me as your impartial authority an article in the leading American neo-conservative magazine, founded by the American Jewish Committee? Please. Have some respect. I refer you to the Geneva Conventions. The law is the law is the law, Bock. Just becase it’s a ‘Jewish’ magazine (though it’s content is highly varied) doesn’t instantly discredit it. It’s not a rag, the reporting is of a high standard, recognised universally. BTW, Commentary is now independent of the American Jewish Committee. It’s very simple – Cast Lead as it stands is not a war crime, except in some people’s heads, who tend to be anti-Israel and certainly not objective. To prevent non-combatants from leaving a war zone is a war crime and I hope eventually the people who planned this crime will be prosecuted. The civilians being killed are trapped behind your wall. Why do you prevent non-combatants from escaping the slaughter? c’est I was’nt being cynical about Jim Corr, he made very valid points, and most definitly he had balls to come out and say it, knowing the type of reaction he would get. Nora; just wondering if you came across anything regarding the U.S.’s upcoming agreement with The U.A.E. to sell them nucleur technology, for civilian use, and their hope to draw in other Arab states to this agreement ? Apparantly Iran is the stumbling block, this agreement is due to be signed end of jan 09. I didn’t think you were Norma, and your comment about Iran is food for thought. And Mervyn’s point about trying radicalising jewish people into moving to Israel was also interesting. Surely the Israeli leaders have to realise the negative consequences jewish people around the world have to suffer because of the policies pursued by the Israeli state. Perhaps it’s an exercise in double think. Who knows. C’est. Agreed on all points. Yesterday, I allowed myself to become arguementative, and that is basically succumbing to the “subliminal” However, The Israeli, PR machine is very powerful, running at full strength at the moment, but I am seeing an undercurrent of agenda, which I think is not directly related to the crisis in Gaza, simply because it does’nt make sense, and the Israeli “cognisenti” are extremly intelligent astute people. There is massive outcry amongst peace activists resident in Israel at the moment, and I would’nt go so far as to say Israel does’nt care what the world thinks, to some extent they do because they risk losing so much with a relatively unknown quantity in U.S. admin. The recent “rocket attacks” from Sth Lebanon and the reports of shots being fired at Israeli troops from inside the Syrian border are very worrying. Where is the finger always pointed when it comes to Hizbollah and Syria ? always Iran, I see this as the potential seeds of something else. Iran doesn’t want to dip it’s hand too much into foreign affairs right now, with the significant fall in oil prices. Mervn and C’est – One doesn’t need to be radicalised to make aliyah, it’s a mitzvah, pure and simple. Even anti-Zionist Satmar live in Israel to fulfil the mitzvah. Buying land in Israel is considered so important that it can be done on Shabbat – when we’re not allowed to do any form of business or even switch on the danm TV, that’ll show you how important aliyah is. Jews of all shades of opinion move to Israel – it’s our national home and the feeling of connection to the land just cannot be understood by the average gentile. So don’t go on from your limited point of view about what’s good for the Jews, we decide what’s good for the Jews. Outside of religious reasons, a Jewish state is needed in the area (as all of biblical Israel is not under our control, we are still in the era of exile, Zionism has not ended this per se). Jews have always tried to integrate into our host societies, Remember Jeremiah: ‘Seek the peace of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the LORD on its behalf; for in its peace you will find peace’. But this never stopped Judeophobia. In fact, many societies Jews assimilated totally into erupted into havens for anti-Semetism, from Ancient Egypt (if you like scripture) to Medieval Spain to Nazi Germany. We were winning half of Germany’s Nobel Prizes before the Nazis came to power for crying out loud, and Germany had the most assimilated Jewsish population anywhere. Yet Jewry was stabbed in the back. I’ll never forget being in Budapest and seeing national symbols adorning the crowns of our old Torah Scrolls. German eagles in gold on our Torah scrolls. Jews were so proud of the countries they lived in, like we are today. Yet gentile societies will buy and sell us in a flash. We’re sick of relying on the kindness of strangers, we want to carve out our own existence in our homeland. There were so many displaced persons after World War Two, Poles, Jews Czechs, etc. I am so proud of the Jewish DPs that took their fate into their own hands andmoved to Palestine, even illegally. Why would you want to go back to Poland or Germany, where you haven’t been treated like a Pole or German for six years to a decade? No, you’ve been treated like a Jew. Israel is a haven for Jews everywhere, Jews of all colours and level of observance. Look at the rescue of Ethiopian Jewry, Yemenite Jewry, Arabian Jewry, Russian Jewry. Israel is also the only country that will act for Jewish interest. What other country would strike out against Eichmann, or target enemies of the Jewish people worldwide? Israel is a historical as well as religious necessity. Amd you can’t just boycott it for acting in the interests of it’s own citizens and the Jewish people. If your argument is biblical then we have nothing further to discuss. You’re just another religious extremist. Secondly, while Israel might be a haven for Jews worldwide, it certainly is far from a haven for its indigenous peoples who have ended up in the Israeli-built ghetto, behind Israel’s wall, and being bombed by Israel’s F16s. Read the post again, Bock. It’s not a purely biblical argument, though some of it is compatible with one. I give the scriptural account of Judeophobia after assimilation and incidences that are historically proven. -thesystemworks Already in France there have been some attacks on synagogues. This is done by the ignorant, but this doesn’t change the fact that the French jewish community are paying for the actions of Israel. As for your religious comments, you can keep them. You do your arguement no favours by talking of ‘scriptures’. Israel is a prodominatly jewish state but that does not give it the right speak for or act in ‘the best interests’ of jewish people around the world. Do all non-Israelian jews get to vote on the leadership of Israel? Remember that oppressive monarchies ruled by ‘divine right’. By trying to justify Israel biblicly you have put yourself on the same level as the extemist Islamic countries you fear so much, and Israels military actions on the same level as a jihad. Are muslims therefore vindicated in citing the koran as an excuse to attack Israel? Also, perhaps it would help your arguement not use the word ‘anti-semitic‘ anymore. “civilians are not being bombed indiscriminatly” “op cast lead 95% of hits right on target” Something strangly contradictory in above quotes from “thesystemworks” but maybe he is missing too many lectures and spending too much time in the “student bar” to the systemworks you have mentioned the bombings of ww2 and the resulting civillian casualties, that was a different time and technology has advanced since then. no longer are soldiers regarded as cannon fodder and rights of civillians are held in higher regard. apparently not by isreal and you may argue that hamas are brutal savages, maybe they are. isreal with all is nobel laureates should be behaving in a civilized manner, and not lowering themselves to the level of hamas who incidently are driven to such actions by the awful conditions they have to endure. Isreal is like the bully in the playground confidently inflicting misery with his older brother (USA) standing by with a big stick ready to crush any serious resistance. if it was not for the usa, iran and a few others would wipe you off the face of the earth. remember that cos some day the older brother will leave school to do his own thing. i have a picture of you and your college buddies, probably members of some university society. “The propoganda society” each given the task of scouring forums throughout the world spreading lies and bullshit. well you got the short straw mate if you were assigned ireland because we can identify with gaza better than anybody and we’re not fooled. Jacksnipe — I really don’t like your tone. If you don’t start showing respect to other contributors, I will withdraw your commenting privileges. Thesystemworks — I cannot believe your doublethink. On the one hand you speak of a safe haven for Jews, yet on the other hand you are blind to the suffering of the people you displaced to create this safe haven. And even now, as they look over their prison wall, you bomb them. Jesus Jacksnipe, from the way you put it, Israel’s militaristic paranoia seems entirely justified. Your statement that Iran and a few others, if given the chance, would wipe Israel off the map, is terrifying. Do you really think this is true? I see reports Osama Bin Laden has just called for Jihad against Israel because of the Gaza assault. This is getting biblical. bin Laden is another religious nutcase and Israel is giving him every excuse he needs. Odd that a CIA asset should call for Jihad against Israel. I wonder what they’re up to.. Binny, if you have internet access out there in the Tora Bora and are reading this, give us a break with all this auld Jihad bollocks. What we want to know is; are you using “just for men” on your hair (come on admit it, Reuters pointed out that your hair looked a lot darker in your last vid than it did three years previously. Meantime, do you sleep with your beard inside or outside the covers? Also, and as an old Arsenal fan from your time studying in London – wouldn’t you know he’d be a Gunner -, do you think the Arse will make up lost ground on the evil empires at Old Trafford and Stamford Bridge? I can’t believe your doublespeak, Bock. You say you don’t like jacksnipe’s tone, who suggested I work for some shadowy propaganda society? Remember what you said about me recently in another post: ”I’m a bit disappointed at the standard of Israeli spin reaching this site. Obviously they don’t take Bock very seriously, and it’s hard to blame them really. After all, this is only an obscure Irish rant, but I’d prefer if they’d ignore me completely instead of putting their Youth Wing on the job. It’s tedious.” Fuck you Bock. You are the same as the ignorant jacksnipe. You just have the brains not to tell us that you wouldn’t mind the destruction of Israel, by whatever means our enemies want. A lot of people here are so ignorant and living in the IPSC/Chomsky/Finkelstein reality. You don’t understand why any free person could come to my views, so I must be a Mossad agent. The world is full of you assholes who make some noices about bin Laden and Hamas being nasty fellows, but will stand up for any of them as long as they attack your pet hates, the US and Israel. It’s nice for Europeans to demand restraint when facing our enemies when their neighbour is probably Switzerland. Hope Irish towns never come under Islamist rocket fire, so Irish people wont have to make the choices Israel does. A lot of you people posting here don’t want peace, or any practical solution to it’s achievment. You just want the destruction of the Jewish State of Israel and attack it’s very legitamicy – a complete non-starter to any peace process in the region. I hope you never become statesmen. Your mask is slipping, System. Please respect the comments policy regarding personal abuse. Ha Ha Bock, nice way not to address the issue. You threatened to censor jacksnipe for comments that you’ve pretty much made yourself in the past. That’s hypocrisy, and you should acknowledge that. What you and jacksnipe have said amount to personal abuse. My ‘mask’ (the identity Mossad assigns me, perhaps?) is not slipping. The comments were clean, despite the one swear word (I normally loathe their usage). You censoring me would just show that you can’t tolerate my intellectual freedom, or the freedom of anyone who persistently disagrees with you. Now that’s a Nazi. Read the comments policy. It was there before you arrived. Respect it or go. It’s up to you. Pause here folks. System seems to have the idea that this site guarantees free speech. It does not. If he wants absolute intellectual freedom, as he describes it, he’s free to start his own site, but right now he needs to be reminded that he’s using somebody else’s facilities, and he needs to respect the rules. He also seems to think that if I choose not to publish what he says, I’m censoring him. He forgets that he is using this site to express his views and that he has had plenty of space to do that. He also forgets that this site is a publication like any other and that I reserve the absolute right to publish or not, as I see fit. This is the case with all publications, even minor ones like this. He needs to be reminded that I do not tolerate personal abuse, including being called a Nazi. I have been at pains to tackle anyone on this site calling the Israelis Nazis because I don’t believe they are. Finally, I have no power to censor anyone, but I do have the power – and the right – to decide what gets posted here, and I will not give some gobshite a platform to question my own integrity. If System doesn’t want to respect these rules, he’s free to go someplace else and I won’t try to stop him. I hope that’s clear enough. No Bock, I wouldn’t call you a Nazi, I only compared your actions to Nazism:) Your entitled to make your own rules. It’s your site. But how come persistently calling me a Mossad agent or propagandist does not amount to personal abuse? I think you are worried because you and jacksnipe have demonstrated some similarity in opinion. Four points: 1. Unless you’re ashamed of the national intelligence service of Israel, it isn’t an insult to be called a Mossad agent. However, I did not call you that. 2. Much of what you’ve said here is propaganda, but again, it isn’t abuse to tell you so. It’s simply a fact. 3. Saying Fuck You is abuse. 4. You did not compare my actions to a Nazi. You said anyone who would censor you is a Nazi. That’s me, unless you noticed someone else running this site. Do not call me a Nazi. It’s a cheap and self-pitying trick. Now stop whingeing and get back on topic. I’m not a propagandist, Bock. I’m following my own truth. Using your logic, I could say you were an Iranian or Syrian propagandist. How would you feel? I’m posting my own point of view, not anyone’s propaganda. I could say you or anyone here is posting propaganda representing some interest, but it wouldn’t be true. Evidence of doublethink is mounting on your part, Bock. Are you going to get back on topic or not? to thesystemworks i didn’t say “you work for some shadowy propaganda society” i’m not giving you that much credit. but i did suggest that you and a few of your political science buddies at college may have unofficially decided to do a little patriotic propoganda spreading between lectures. i never suggested your society was shadowy or that you were a mosad agent. stop twisting things and to pacman yes i believe what i wrote and furthermore i believe that the next nuke fired as an act of aggression will be from isreal. i honestly believe that isreal has that little regard for human life. i have been to eilat in southern isreal and believe me, they have lots of fallout shelters. i have even been inside one in a primary school, although i was told it was a plain bomb shelter for the kids, but it was very deep, so it could double as a nuclear shelter. and to bock, i dont really care whether you like my tone or not so if you need to ban me, then do so, i have probably spent too much time here already. Yes jacksnipe, I think what you suggested about me, though factually incorrect, is still better than Bock’s assumptions. Assumptions I believe come from an agent of the Iranian Intelligence Services (Irish Division). Lets have the quote again: â€I’m a bit disappointed at the standard of Israeli spin reaching this site. Obviously they don’t take Bock very seriously, and it’s hard to blame them really. After all, this is only an obscure Irish rant, but I’d prefer if they’d ignore me completely instead of putting their Youth Wing on the job. It’s tedious.â€ Youth Wing of what Institution, people? I’ll reiterate something I said earlier about this narrow-mindedness. A lot of people here are so ignorant and living in the IPSC/Chomsky/Finkelstein reality. You don’t understand why any free person could come to my views, so I must be somebody’s ‘agent’. The world is full of these types who make some noices about bin Laden and Hamas being nasty fellows, but will stand up for any of them as long as they attack the pet hates – the US and Israel. It’s nice for Europeans to demand restraint when facing our enemies when their neighbour is probably Switzerland. I hope Irish towns never come under Islamist rocket fire, so Irish people wont have to make the choices Israel does. A lot of you people posting here don’t want peace, or any practical solution to it’s achievment. You just want the destruction of the Jewish State of Israel and attack it’s very legitamicy – a complete non-starter to any peace process in the region. I hope you never become statesmen, as its clear you wouldn’t mind the destruction of Israel, by whatever means our enemies want. That has always been a weakness of Israelis: an extremely literal way of looking at things. Don’t flatter yourself, young man. You haven’t yet become a mind-reader. What makes you think the comment was about you? Are you that important? Now. Get back on topic and stop trying to divert attention from the central issue. This isn’t about me or you. It’s about the civilians trapped behind your wall, dying under your bombardment. I’ve been very patient with you and I won’t put up with much more of your obfuscation. Stick to the point and stop feeling sorry for yourself. Enough of the ad hominem comments. Since Internet Firewall technology originated in Israel also, would anyone be prepared to stop using it on principle? In fact, no one has really come forward and said they would seriously boycott the Israeli goods and achievements I, or even Bock, listed. Except jacksnipe, and who wants to be associated with those opinions? Even then, I doubt he’d refuse life-saving Israeli medical treatments. I’d say he’d refuse a Merkava firing a 120mm shell at him. As he would an Abrams or Sherman shell, Bock. You can’t single out Israel in that regard. And Israel invents technology like that to defend it’s very existence, which has often been under threat. Other countries use their weapons and intelligence services to conquer and dominate others. Israel, however, and propbably uniquely in this day and age, needs these things to survive. And again, no one has really come forward and said they would seriously boycott all the Israeli goods and achievements you or I listed. We were talking about Israeli goods, were we not? You know those people you’re not conquering or dominating, but defending yourself against? The refugees in Gaza? What are they refugees from? Ah yes, quite right, we were. So, would you boycott all the goods and achievments you and I have listed? I would not be stupid. If Israel doesn’t stop what it’s doing to the people in Gaza – and you know that I consider it to be a war crime – I would take a pragmatic approach. I would support a boycott of things we wouldn’t miss, such as food items, and continue trading with Israel for things that are useful to us. You might have overlooked my earlier question since I modified the comment. The people you’re defending yourselves from in Gaza, the refugees. What are they refugees from? A pragmatic approach indeed Bock, but perhaps not principled. I can’t keep you on topic, Bock, it’s your site. The refugee issue is just too large a topic to get into now. As you know, my preferred solution to stop the bloodshed is the two state solution, two states with secure and recognised borders. The Palestinian one being confined to the West Bank, Gaza and the majority Palestinian State that is Jordan. Undermining the legitamicy of the Jewish State, as I’ve said before, is just a non-starter in any peace process. My comment is on topic. You claim that you don’t use your weapons to conquer and dominate others. In response, I ask you who these refugees in Gaza are, against whom you use these weapons today. Israel does not wish to conquer Gaza. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Nothing was reciprocated from the other side. Gaza had its chance. They started firing more rockets BEFORE the so-called siege began, the siege that apparently justifies anything Hamas does. They did not even try to build their own proper state, when all Jews were forced to evacuate, the Palestinians (in Hamas form) destroyed all the agricultural and industrial equipment we left behind for them. Tractors, state of the art greenhouses, food processing equipment… And they desecrated the synagogues. To me, this indicates the conflict is not just about land, but overcoming the ideaological hate barriers to peace that is so prominent on the Palestinian side. Not to say it doesn’t exist on our side, we have some nuts, but the majority of the Israeli population loathes these people more than any Palestinian terrorist group. Nutty American evangelicals give us a bad name, they don’t give a shit about Israel or its people, they love Israel depending on its size. But Israel does not seek to conquer and dominate, it wants to survive. Pretty much everything we captured in 1967 has been given back for the sake of peace, or at least is very much on the cards. -thesystemworks The reason the evangelical nuts love is Israel is because they believe in prophecy. When the jews return to Israel (done) and the temple of Solomon is rebuilt then there will be a seven year peace followed by armagedon and the tribulation and then the return of jesus, who of course will collect up all the faithful and bring them to heaven. You’re right, they don’t give a fuck about you, or palestinians or anything that isn’t printed in the ‘good’ book thesysteworks wrote the Palestinians (in Hamas form) destroyed all the agricultural and industrial equipment we left behind for them. since when have the isrealis ever left anything for the palestinians. i have memories of bulldozers destroying valuable housing rather than let the palestinians benefit from them when they had to leave their illegal settlements. yet more crap Hmmmm interesting C’est; I was wondering what all the evangelists were doing meandering around over there, and they dreaming their impossible dreams. But if the above prophecy is fulfilled as the evangelists anticipate, and I anticipate that it will come to pass that there will be a lot of anticipating, will Jews reject Jesus for a second time, and he walking around Palestine talking that talk, destroying the local wine industry by changing water into chateau le plonk. Meantime, is the unspoken belief amongst a high number of Catholics/Christians that the Jews had Jesus executed the main cause of anti Semitism (yes, we know some Arabs are Semites). Did this belief – rejected by the last Pope – lead directly to the gates of Auschwitz? Are there other explanation for this irrational hatred – so irrational the world grinds to a halt, ostensibly at least, on December 25 to celebrate the birth of a Jew – of a race that as contributed so much to human civilization? Some Christians believe that Jews are God killers! Far fetched? An editorial in a mainstream weekly Greek newspaper, in reaction to the war in Gaza, only last week accused the Jews of being “God Killers”. The editorial on A1 read: “Yet would God killers care about a few hundred innocent children? Unfortunately it is known all over the world that a Jew smells of blood.” Other than that the editorial was fairly balanced …… Before we get back on topic, I thought the Romans killed Jesus. No? The Romans, the brutal occupying force in Palestine/Judea at the time, executed him, yes. But when, according to the bible, Pilate presented Jesus to the people (Jews) and asked what to do with him they shouted back, “crucify him”. Pilate then quite literally washed his hands of the affair and the Jews got the blame – the root cause of anti Semitism to this day according to many.Jesus was charged with sedition, leading a rebellion against the Romans. Oh right. A bit like Israel saying it’s Hamas’s fault we’re bombing these children? Abdul. Judge= Romans. jury= Jews Verdict= “crucify him” Summation= Bloodthirsty. Norma — That story comes from a collection of fairytales written in much simpler times. There are a lot of fanatical anti-Jewish lunatics who like to follow this Jesus thing and I don’t really want to go down that road too much. OK? Jacksnipe, the fact that the settlers left all agricultural equipment, such as tractors and greenhouses for Palestinian usage is true and easily checkable. Hamas idiots just went smashy smashy and burny burny rather than use them, as well as desecrating the synagogues. System — Damaged greenhouses, did they? In that case, I recommend that you kill 1000 Palestinian civilians. I notice you didn’t have much to say about the burning of the UN compound. [Deleted: duplicate post] [Deleted: this was already posted on another thread. This is known as trolling and will get a poster banned on most sites] It was a piece of misguided irony, am aware of fairytales. System — Do that again and you will be banned for trolling. system was not trolling trolling is posting controversial/objectionable comments with the express desire to cause people to argue with each other or directly with the troll. (my definition) maybe he is trying to cause controversy, but i do believe that he is sincere, therefore he is not a troll. more accurately, his actions may be considered spamming or cross-posting. He’s trolling. If he does it again he’ll be banned. End of discussion. Leave a Reply Cancel reply This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.