Why Are Irish Banks Backing Liam Carroll’s Zoe Group?

Why the ACC application is good for Ireland

UPDATE 10th September 2009

The Zoe Group failed to convince a court that it deserved protection.  Its business plan was rubbish, according to the judge.

This is a load of shite, he said.  Fuck off.

And so it was.  A load of old cobblers.

Zoe are the crowd who tried to persuade the court that what they were doing was in the public interest, as if their actions and the actions of people like them hadn’t created the disastrous property bubble that has destroyed our economy.

Naturally, the Irish banks banded together to try and keep Carroll’s companies afloat, and why wouldn’t they, with NAMA riding over the horizon to rescue the whole craven lot of them?

Ayway, that’s that.

They’re officially fucked and now we’ll start to find out the true value of these bad assets.



Liam Carroll’s group of companies, collectively referred to as the Zoe Group, are fucked.

They’re bankrupt.


The man who started out as an ordinary building-services engineer, and through minor success  came to believe in his own infallibility,  has lost everything.



I never liked Carroll.  I never liked the miserable slums he was building on the banks of the Liffey in Dublin.  I never liked his penny-pinching style.  I never liked the fact that he designed the layouts of his shoebox apartments on his kitchen table because he was too stingy to pay people of quality to design a product of quality.

That was years ago, and I didn’t like him then because I thought Dublin deserved better.

I still don’t like him, but for entirely different reasons, to do with greed, hubris and the collapse of our economy as a result of his activities and of people like him.  Soulless people.  Men without vision.

So why are the Irish banks backing their application for court protection while Dutch-owned ACC wants Zoe to be placed in receivership?  Why, in fact, are the Irish banks offering to give Carroll the money to make the Dutch bank go away?

It isn’t that hard to figure out really.

If ACC get their way, Carroll’s assets will have to be sold off now, revealing their true value.  This value will come nowhere close to Carroll’s total debts of €1.1 billion.

They might bring in €300 million.  They might make €400 million.  Nobody knows, but they won’t make anything approaching the amount lent to Carroll.

Now.  How does this affect you and me?

Well, if ACC hadn’t taken this action, we could well see NAMA paying the banks maybe €800 million for Carroll’s debts, even though his assets are worth at most €400 million.


Because NAMA is designed to protect international investors by giving them your money and mine at rates well over the odds.  That’s what NAMA is.  That’s what it’s supposed to do:  pay more of your money to the banks than they deserve.

So if the courts decide that Carroll’s assets should be sold off, it will be very hard for NAMA to pay above the going rate for these shit loans and therefore the bondholders of the banks will lose out.  The billionaire international investors who took a risk on the Irish banks might lose money and we couldn’t have that.  Far better for the Irish taxpayer to take the hit.

Now.  Multiply Carroll by a hundred other gobshite developers and you can see the nightmare facing the international bondholders.  They might lose money, and you couldn’t have that, when there are taxpayers to be fleeced.

To return to our original conversation.  Why are the Irish banks backing Carroll?  Not hard to figure out: if they don’t back Carroll, their NAMA gravy-train might come off the rails.

It’s that simple.


Elsewhere, Brian Lucey asks the hard questions about NAMA.

No to NAMA

If you have the stamina, you could do worse than read this extraordinary series of posts by a former employee of Carroll.


Also on Bock:

Taxpayer rescues investors

Supreme Court tells Carroll to get stuffed

112 thoughts on “Why Are Irish Banks Backing Liam Carroll’s Zoe Group?

  1. Yes, but it will display the true value of your property also, along with everyone else. This will not matter all that much if there is no mortgage on it. But if, as with most people there is something, then a 70% markdown makes many a loan delinquent.

  2. If Zoe had gone to the wall and the banks had a fire sale of it’s assets we would have had a true picture of the value of the buildings (completed and uncompleted) and the land banks that these loans are based on. This probably would not affect the total amount of money that the taxpayer will have to hand over to the banks to keep them solvent but would affect the terms and conditions of the handover. We can take it as a given that the banks require X zillion euro to stay in business. The government will give them this amount however the banks are hoping that this figure will come totally from the loans that NAMA will buy from them, probably at 70% of their original value. But if Zoe’s assets are sold off at 40% of their value then NAMA will have to offer the same rate to the banks. But that will not be enough to keep the banks going so they will have to ask the government for the other 30% which will probably be supplied as a loan which the banks will have to pay back. They most certainly do not want this to happen. Hence they don’t want Zoe to be declared insolvent. Cunts !

  3. But Vincent if you are still able to service the loan and are not planning to “upsize” or “downsize” (as the present day terminology has it) then you have nothing to worry about. The negative equity in someone’s home only comes into play if you lose your job and have to sell your house and in any case is it fair that the taxpayer should foot the bill to keep house prices at an artificially high level?

  4. Yes Bard, that would be valid in your example. But now include the extra house bought in 04/5.
    Anyway, mostly I agree with you and himself, this is a foolish move. Far better to buy the good bits of the bank, the systemic bits and allow the share and bond holders absorb the risk on the remainder, they after all recieved dividend for years on the back of that risk.

  5. Nail on the head Wrinkly Joe. They would have to get the balance as a loan instead of a handout. Cunts indeed, the lot of them.

  6. Also if anyone is stupid enough to think that ACC will win their case as they should, well they deserve everything they get.

    I’m sure that the supreme court judges are working feverishly to come up with a form of words to undermine the high court ruling to ensure that the gravy train keeps on running (over us that is).

  7. Yep, Mark, I’ll be amazed if our politically connected and appointed judiciary don’t “do the right thing”. But, even if they dont, whats the betting that the government will pay an inflated value for the toxic assets anyway. They’ve already told us they are going to pay over the odds, so just because they might have some hard figures as to what some of the properties are actually worth, that wont stop them handing over cash based on dreamland valuations. They’ll just have to put in bit of PR on the airwaves. Given how they brazenly spun and sold the new blasphemy law, that’ll be a piece of cake to them.
    I mean, if this valuation was going to be the difference between a handout and a loan, then why didnt the government just give the whole lot as a loan, day one, and use the assets as collateral?

  8. In my opinion, it’s a continuation of what we’ve been seeing for years: complete ignorance, wrapped up in important-sounding jargon that nobody understands, and that means nothing. In other words, economics.

  9. That Carroll is a prick. His company’s had a very bad safety record if not the worst in Ireland. He was told he could make money from his workers sweat but not from their blood.
    He was the biggest builder in Ireland and not one of his buildings will last the test of time.
    The true value of a lot these buildings that go into NAMA will be the site it sits on.
    Who will maintain these white elephants for years until they rise in value? How many
    Houses, shops, offices, hotels, etc will ever be used, the whole thing could be even worse. Do they really think that 100’s of houses in Leitrim, Longford, Carlow will be sold. A pal of mine was in Cavan recently just outside a small village is about 50 houses with about 3 sold, how can you value something like these houses, which has no market and may never have one.
    The value is the market value, and this was what we were told for years, this is until the market collapsed, then it’s everyone’s fault we all lost the run of ourselves. When all that really happened was people called their bluff that prices would keep going up.
    It’s just as well we all became millionaires in the good old days

  10. hubris means arrogence which is somewhat deserved, he looks like Dev… no one looks upto him, cares about him.

    He’s just arrogent

  11. What’s the bet that FF will recall the Dail to urgently discuss the NAMA legislation and rush it through the House before Carroll’s firesale begins? Either that, or Lenihen (another prick of the highest order) will just ignore the collapse of Zoe and dole out our money to those developer cunts while trying to cod us that it is for our own good, if only we could just realise it…

  12. OK, I was wrong about the SC Judges, looks like the judiciary might be a bit more independent than I thought. Good. Now lets see what the government / banks do to try and stop us seeing what Carroll’s stuff is worth, or whether they are happy to let people see NAMA pay inflated prices for the other assets, confident that they can bluster their way out of it.

  13. Well all I can say is that a lot of shite is being talked on this site. If ACC were stupid enough to lend Carroll all that money in the first instance without properly assessing the risk then they deserve to get screwed. They are a foregin bank and our duty and that of the Supreme Court is first and foremost to protect the Irish State and its institutions. ACC will fuck off back to Holland and presumably never do business here again. So what. Its the duty of the Irish Government and the Supreme Court to look after Ireland, its own Financial Instututions and if creating NAMA is the only way to do it, then bring it on.

  14. Esterelle: “They are a foreign bank and our duty and that of the Supreme Court is first and foremost to protect the Irish State and its institutions.” I dont think that is, or should be, the case. ( And its Carroll ACC are after, not the Irish State). If the courts were to act as you suggest, and tell foreign banks “piss off , youre not getting your money back”, how much money do you think our government would be able to raise on the bond markets? You know, to get the 400 million a week it has to borrow to keep the country from going bust?

  15. Its much more than Carroll v ACC as you well know. Foregin Banks are private institutions who were trying to use the Irish property scene to bolster their own balance sheets. Nothing to do with bond markets which are interstate trading markets. Its not the duty of the Supreme Court or the Government to give them precedence over Irish financial instiutions or the Dail itself for that matter. NAMA is the only show in town right now and its up to the Irish people, the Courts and the politicians to support it. We know the Opposition will be playing political football with it, thats what they do but if they have any better ideas for solving the crisis they have kept them well hidden.

  16. You speak as if Irish banks were some kind of benevolent charities. Irish banks are private institutions too, yet the Irish government is bailing out their shareholders with public funds.

    This talk about Nama being the only show in town is the kind of intimidatory bullshit we’ve come to associate with Fianna Fail and its cronies in the banks, and I’m personally sick of it.

  17. esterelle, you are saying that the SC should tell foreign banks to piss off, that they are not getting their money bank. I’m saying that if they did, the Irish Government wouldnt be able to raise a penny from the bond markets, as they would be fairly sure that they wouldnt get their money back. The country would then go bust in a couple of weeks or thereabouts. NAMA is not the only show in town. The taxpayer could lend the money to the banks, or we could nationalise the banks, and that way have something to show for our 90 billion investment in a few years, as opposed to some worthless property. It is up to the courts to uphold the law of the land. It is up to the Irish people to think for themselves and use their vote wisely, not to take the word of politicians who have been in bed with the very people to whom they now want to give OUR money, and our children’s money.

  18. No they are not charities and I never suggested they were, their shareholders are by and large ordinary people who invested in what they believed were blue chip stocks which they believed would act as their pension fund. It is important for those people, many of them elderly that the question of nationalisation does not arise. Ditto for pension funds. Playing politics with NAMA will achieve nothing either despite Bocks ocvious prejudices. NAMA is the only show in town, believe me. It does not matter what your politics is. Looking after ACC and other foregin financial institutions in some sort of misguided bid to scupper NAMA is not a runner.
    And by the way NAMA is penalising severely the builders and developers, thats why they are so implacably opposed to it.

  19. What prejudices would they be?

    Is it the prejudice that would rather not have my country governed by a bunch of corrupt crooks?

  20. Bock, I think you know precisely what they are and so do visitors to this site. But its time you put those aside for a little while. Strange as it may seem, your country needs you. Will you be able to dispense with all the shite and step up to the plate. I doubt it very much. Those of us who know your form over the years will know how difficult it would be. Give it a try, you might surprise yourself.

  21. Its for you Bock to decide whether you wish to persist with your meaningless rantings or offer something a little more helpful and meaningful. To date all we have is the continuous rant. If you have any clue about finding a solution to the states financial predicament, then put it on the table. Like I said previously there are thousands of decent men and women out there who invested in AIB and BOI as shareholders over the years. Those people are ordinary citizens not builders developers or bankers. It is vital that our financial institutions start functioning again for to kick start the economy out of perhaps the worst recession to beset the world.

  22. They took a gamble. It didn’t pay off. That’s what playing the markets is all about.

    It’s sad, but it’s not my problem, nor is it the problem of the millions of decent men and women who could’t afford shares in anything but who are now being robbed to pay the gambling debts.

  23. Buying shares is a gamble esterelle. The fact that you advocate taking 90 bn from taxpayers to compensate gamblers makes me wonder about your prejudices. Are you a shareholder in these banks? I’m thinking you must have a vested interest in terms of benefitting from NAMA the way you are going on. If you will be honest about this I’d appreciate it, because I will not waste my time arguing with someone whose financial well being is dependent on them not understanding common sense.

    What’s wrong with lending them the money they need? I know we might not necessarily get it all back, but its surely a better bet than giving them the money for free, which is essentially what NAMA is going to do.

  24. Investing in the property market is a gamble also and was for ACC but you guys have no difficulty advocating that the Supreme Court should afford them preferential access to Carrolls companies. You cannot have it both ways. But you chaps are only happy it seems when something which has a chance of getting stability back into the Irish Banking sector is scuppered by the actions of lawyers and foregin institutions.

  25. NAMA will buy the banks’ bad assets for a lot more than they’re worth, transferring billions straight to you, even though you don’t deserve them.

    To recoup this money which will be given given free to the bondholders and shareholders of the banks, NAMA hopes that property values will increase over time.

    All risk is removed from your bank and transferred to the taxpayer. Your investments are protected and my children pay for it.

    Even when you start to make a profit again, you won’t have to give back a single penny of the over-valuation you were paid.

    No wonder you think that’s a good deal.

    On the other hand, I’d call it theft.

  26. In Ireland there is no personal get out of gaol card for debt like there is in the USA. This skews the situation drastically. When there was some sort of rent controls much of the land insanity was kept in check by actual value on any property measured by rental return.
    We have for years used the US as our template for all good economically, and while this situation might have worked if we decided to follow and copy the Laws in just one State, Maryland say, but the use of the cut and paste with policy from each and every jurisdiction, sometimes running counter to each other, was guaranteed to crash badly. But added to this there are all the unreformed common laws, you know that shite which lands some citizen in clink for non-payment of the TV license, we not only built an atom bomb we parked the bloody thing on top of a mountain of black powder. What gets me is that they seem so surprised that there was an explosion.

  27. Firstly, Its not because of the likes of Liam Carroll that the economy is the way that it is. He did not go into the banks and put a gun to their head and make them give him money! I dont think he is greedy. He has kept many of us in jobs over the years directly or indirectly!!!

    I think you should know the ins and outs of the issues you are talking about before you go spouting off on the internet about it!

    I can honestly say I dont like your tone, form or manner and I will not be visiting this site again!!

  28. I don’t give a flying fuck what you like or don’t like. I’ll end up paying for the likes of Carroll anyway, as will every other taxpayer in the country.

  29. Like all good cons, NAMA depends on the gullibility of the customer and it is well established that the Irish taxpayer will, after a little moaning, swallow just about anything if it’s properly packaged. Firstly it is essential to turn them against one another i.e. divide the private and public sectors, the employed against the unemployed. In the case of the Carroll group it is neccessary to stall it in the courts for a few months as a smokescreen to cover the fact that, through the ‘national’ banks, the tax-payer will pick up the bill. While not wishing him harm, it will help if, for the duration, Mr. Carroll displays the symptoms of stress most often found amongst over-mortgaged young couples who will loose their homes as a result of the actions of speculators. Did someone mention the civil war; or was it a new one being considered? Here’s hoping we won’t be voteing on the outcome of this one for another hundred years.

  30. Extra! I have just read Abe Pearce’s comments. They are perfectly reasonable IF the matter was strictly between Carroll and the banks which it most definitely IS NOT. Nevertheless Pearce’s attitude is precisely what is required to swallow the medicine that is in the pipeline. His opening statement is testament to the packaging this medicine has got. Why do I think he hasn’t a hefty mortgage and a family?

  31. This is complete capitulation of the “Judicial” system it makes the whole system transparently useless! The Supreme Court is no longer the final Arbiter of the law. It their decision suits you , Fine! If not just go back to the start again and begin again until you get what you are demanding!

    In this case it is not about examinership it is is about four letters NAMA Over the last two weeks the courts have shown us that they are corrupt beyond redemption! All they had to say was no more corruption but what did they say “business as usual!”

  32. A simple question? Why should ACC be given preference over Irish Financial Institutions by the Irish Courts
    Everybody is avoiding it particularly Bock

  33. Maybe because they were the ones that took the case to court?

    The Irish banks are happy to wait for Nama/the Government/the taxpayer to swoop in and make it all better.

  34. With the blessing of the IMF the Government drew up the NAMA plan. It would to totally wrong for that process to be derailed by a decision of the Irish Courts. It must be remembered that the vast majority of creditors in the Carroll group support examinership. There is a risk involved in the NAMA scenario but to do nothing is simply not an option. And listening to Enda Kenny and Eamon Gilmore on the radio today it was patently obvious that they have no costed solution to put forward to solve the problem.

  35. ACC are irrelevant. This is just a red herring employed by Esterelle to distract from the central issue, which is that the Irish taxpayer is saving the bondholders from the consequences of their risky investment.

  36. esterelle, ACC are not being given preferential access, they are the only bank who have gone to the courts! Comparing lending money to a builder and buying shares on the stock market as being equivalnet in terms of gambling is completely cretinous. The law has mechanisms to allow lenders to try and get their money back. The supreme court is upholding that law. Its clear from your posts that you feel the Supreme Court is there to do the governemnts bidding, rather than uphold the laws of the land. What purpose do you feel the law has, if you dont think there should be anyone there to uphold it?

    Now are you going to answer my question, are you a shareholder in one of the Irish Banks who will benefit from NAMA?

  37. Just to put you straight EssoDee I hold no shares in any financial institution, Irish or otherwise. ACC were being given preferential treatment by the Courts. Hopefully this will not be the case when the new evidence which has emerged is examined. The Courts are there to look after national interests, primarlily. Hopefully they will do that this time. The majority of creditors in the Carroll group are of the view that it can trade its way out of trouble. ACC are attempting to derail the NAMA project (a project supported by the IMF) by their actions.
    ACC are not irrelevant, and they cannot be allowed to destroy what is a reasonable attempt to get our financial institutions back on track. The Courts must see to it that ACC are not facilitated at this time.
    It is not a case of the Courts doing the governments bidding as EssoDee suggests but rather the Courts supporting the Institutions of State (ie Parliament)

  38. In my opinion the courts uphold the law, irrespective of what that may be. ACC (Rabbo) loaned Mr.Carroll €150m to build and now they want it back. They have no interest in Ireland. Like all Banks their only interest is in money, profit. If it destroys the Irish State? So what.

    NAMA is akin to a guy down the pub telling of a sure thing at fifty to one. He knows the owner, jockey, trainer and a friend bookie put the house on it.
    It may very well win if not you have been foolish.

    Unfortunately so also have your decedents for the next few generations.

  39. That is utter crap Gary Ireland. If you lend money as a Bank certain responsibilities go along with that. ACC have got badly burned as have the other institutions. NAMA despite your cheap shot protestations has been described by financial experts throughout the world as a very reasonable method of returning our financial institutions to normality. As the judicial arm of the State it is reasonable to expect that the Superior Courts will not allow disaffected foregin financial institutions from allowing it to function properly. NAMA by the way is not bailing out the builders and developers, it is putting them into bankruptcy, by and large. There are people posting on this site who are talking through their arses for narrow political reasons.

  40. esterelle – two things. You say that neither Fine Gael nor the Labour Party have a costed solution to put forward. Well in case you haven’t noticed, neither have Fianna Fail. We don’t know what NAMA is going to cost the country, either in the short term nor in the long term view. Also, while I agree that something like NAMA will have to be put in place to try to salvage an almost unsalvageable situation, the problem is what percentage of value will the government pay the banks for these loans. At the moment no-one knows the value of property but you can be sure that the banks will try to take as much as possible out of the deal and what is alarming me is that, for some reason, the government don’t seem to be prepared to play hard ball with them and get the best deal possible for the taxpayer. And , of course, the elephant in the room is why is this ? Can we trust a party that has been the fuck-toy of banks and developers since the 1960s. ?That, esterelle is my problem. Now, tell me I’m wrong !

  41. When I hear people saying things like “financial experts throughout the world” I know they’re trying to intimidate me by huffing and puffing.

  42. Gary,

    Fintan O’Toole has a good take on the whole thing in his article in todays times. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0825/1224253194613.html?via=rel

    Basically, if NAMA goes ahead we get “an economic version of Sophie’s Choice: heads, we lose billions of public money; tails we inflate another bubble.

    This is why Nama has to be stopped, and why public opinion has to make itself felt. If Nama goes ahead without the largest public demonstrations ever seen in the State, we deserve what we get. Our kids deserve better.”

  43. Put simply guys, the Banks have to be put back on their feet, otherwise the Country sinks and the IMF move in. NAMA is the only show in town. Get used to it.

  44. Here’s what I think happened.
    Banks, speculators, builders, developers, land owners, and buy-to-rent investers conspired to create a new currency: property.
    The value of this new currency was hugely over-inflated by lending instutions competing against each other to lend euros to those buying this new currency.
    This inflation pushed rents and mortgage costs through the roof and made Ireland grossly uncompetitive.
    The government in the person of housing minister Noel Ahern (brother to the Taoiseach) entirely abdicated its resposibility to regulate the housing market and to provide low-cost public housing since this would have interfered with the over-valuation of the new currency.
    Now, rather than accept that property is a failed currency, the government is attempting to shore it up with undertakings to banks (and therefore also to speculators, builders, developers, land owners, and buy-to-rent investers).
    We were told for years that the market is self-regulating, and that supply and demand determine price. We now know that this is patently untrue, why otherwise would the government have to shore up the banking system and take on its bad debts?
    Why are local authorities offering to take on groups of un-sold houses from developers for long term rent, rather than buying them at cost?
    I suppose it’s unfashionable to remark that someone once said, “Property is theft.”
    Nationalise the property, take it into a state-owned land bank. Restore competitivenes to the country by making public housing affordable for the lowest paid, at least to the extent that rent-allowance payments no longer have to be made by the HSE.

  45. ACC were being given preferential treatment by the Courts.

    Why do you say this?
    Is it not reasonable to ask for a loan to be repaid?
    How were they treated preferably and what would be the motive?

    I understand the Irish banks motive in not pressing for ANY property to be sold at reduced price, for purely selfish reasons so that their losses won’t be revealed until NAMA is forced through.

    I just hope the greens have the balls to stop this, and it won’t be because of their leaders, but because of their democracy.

  46. The reason why ACC which is owned by Rabo the Dutch bank are scuppering Mr. Carroll’s companies are that they have been told to play hard ball with Irish developers. Creditors have already been paid off by Mr. Carroll banks who gave him access to credit, even though they knew the figures already spelt insolvency. The Dutch are ruining the game, and the game is, that all developers are to be taken into NAMA where their fields and half empty sheds are to be assimilated by the Irish tax payer at “Notional Values.”. In short, your house is only worth 200,000 now but I will give you 600,000 for it based on belief that it will be worth that in the future. There are a lot of private citizens that would love to go for that right now.

    This is not ACC versus Mr. Carroll. This is ACC attempting to show the Irish people that their court system is rotten to the core. Which they have already done! If ACC win this case they will save the Irish tax payer from having to pay billions for agricultural land which they could buy for Euro 10,000 an acre.

    Money pumped into NAMA is money that will never be available to the Irish economy again and it does not come cheap. Watch our debt payments spiral to 21% of government receipts by 2013 or 1 Euro in every 5 raised. If the greens continue with this NAMA plan they will be seen as the party that made the Irish tax payer remove the nuclear toxic fuel rods with their bare hands. The Greens should know better than anyone what will happen. The skin will come off, radio active poisoning will ensue and death of the economy will be painfully slow. Then I wonder will anyone think NAMA was such a good idea?

  47. As I said previously NAMA is the only show in town right now. Nationalisation of the Banks is the worst of all possible options. As resuts from the USA are proving Banks which are relieved of the bad loans are incredibly profitable entities and will be able to repay the State within a very short time. Recovery is beginning to happen worlwide. We must be ready for that and get credit flowing again. Nationalisation of anything is bad news. Its a tired old left wing philosopy which hiders growth and drives out potential investors. Robert Browne talks about ACC being told to play ball with Developers. What bullshit. They were quite happy to play ball when they thought they were on to a good thing. Now that the going is a bit rougher they suddenly have a rethink and they want the Irish Courts to support their revised management strategy. Well tough, it doesnt operate like that. Each country has to look after its own survival and the Supreme Court as the judicial arm of the State have a responsibility to ensure that ACC are not allowed to dictate to the majority of creditors in the Carroll Group and to derail the State’s recovery. And Bock the IMF and EU have been supportive of the NAMA plans as currently constituted.

  48. Mark thank you for the link he puts my ideas much better than I can. Esterelle I admire your optimism however as my Grandfather used to say “wish in one hand and piss in the other and see which is full first”
    NAMA may work there again it may result in poverty for Ireland for generations.

    I bought our current home in 1995 for 86,000 punts one sold a few months ago for €900,000. It is a good house but not worth that. The “shoebox King” made his way in the World by selling kips to the gullible and now Rabo want ( like Shylock) there pound of flesh .

    NAMA will be rammed through . When rape is inevitable the best thing to do is lie back and enjoy it.

  49. Esterelle — I believe you’ve repeated the phrase “only show in town” four times now. Could you please come up with a new cliché?

    As mentioned above, 46 Irish economists have today published an article explaining why, in their opinion, Nama as currently proposed, is not the only option.

    Now, let’s see which of your favourite words you’ll apply to them.

    Are they talking crap, shite or bullshit? Perhaps they’ve written meaningless rantings, or displayed obvious prejudice. Maybe they’re talking through their arses?

    These are all things you’ve said about other people’s opinions. Though you deny being a Fianna Fáil stooge, your dismissive attitude certainly gives a good impression of one.

    I think you have a hidden agenda.

  50. If you want to see George Lee’s take on NAMA i.e. that we are being bullied and harried into NAMA check out this link. http://www.herald.ie/opinion/why-i-believe-were-being-rushed-bullied–and-intimidated–into-making-a–big-mistake-in-allowing–nama-go-ahead-1868623.html

    Is there any economist who isn’t a government stooge who will come out publicly and defend NAMA? I’m specifically excluding Ahearne as he is a government adviser and so is only going to trot out the party line.

  51. He’s right. Everything the government is doing now flows directly from their panicked decisions last September when they extended a blanket guarantee to high-risk-high-return gamblers. The only government in the world to do so.

    Who would guarantee a gambler? It’s a contradiction in terms.

  52. You lot are unbelievable in your naivity but the fact remains that NAMA is now on the table and nobody (economist or politician) has proposed anything better. By and large every economist has a different opinion about everything concerning financial matters. Every now and then one of them is right which is simply a matter of luck for them. I said it previously and I will say it again. Banks have the potential to generate huge profits and pay back to the State the supports they are given in the short term. I like the way you guys dodged around that. Its also not reasonable to expect our Supreme Court to support different management starategies put forward by ACC Bank or Rabo Bank. You gave that a swerve too I notice.
    There is no hidden agenda with me, I call it as I see it. But I have no desire to see expensive nationalisation of Banks and other institutions which will leave us with a Cuba like state. Stagnant and stale.

  53. Esterelle, your mantra “Banks have the potential to generate huge profits” exposes exactly the logic that got us into this mess. Profit before prudence has us where we are.
    Banks’ huge profits may be great for their shareholders, they may be great for director and executive remuneration and bonuses, and they may be great for their balance sheets, but they are a proven receipe for social and economic disaster, both in Ireland and elsewhere.
    The systematic eradication of mutually-based financial services is an unacknowledged contributor to the over-heating and subsequent collapse of the Irish lending sector.

  54. Estrelle
    Banks have the “potential” of making profit but for whom? I suspect for the very financial experts you seem to regard as Gods . On this site everyone is out of step but you.

  55. Gary, in the words of Bock himself, I couldnt give a flying fuck whether or not I am out of step with you guys. And Conan you might just read some recently released results from the States and other places. Banks which were almost gone out of business at the height of a crisis will be able to pay back the supports they received in a couple of years.

    Additionaly it is vital that private pension funds whose money is tied up in Bank shareholdings are facilitated in returning to something close to their original levels. Otherwise the state will really have an insurmountable problem on its hands in the relatively near future.

  56. Recently-released results. International experts. Potential to generate profits. Only game in town.

    It’s waffle.

    Overbearing, condescending waffle admittedly, but waffle nonetheless. Strong on intimidation, short on specifics.

    Looks like the spin machine ran out of oil.

  57. The present profitability of the banks is exaggerated – it is off the back of massive cost-cutting and redundancies, not the trading environment. Financial ‘products’ are not what they used to be, thank goodness.

    The pension fund issue is simple. They gambled, and they lost. I don’t have a problem with that. Why should the share value of banks be underwritten by those who didn’t gamble their money? What is it all the ads say, “The value of investments may rise or fall”?

    The static noise I hear in the background is the petulant whine of greed and a self-righteous sense of entitlement. It sounds exactly the same as the simple-minded gambler who says, “But it was a sure thing!” after putting his shirt on a slow horse.

  58. In a recent post I wrote:
    “This reason why ACC bank which is owned by Rabo the Dutch bank are scuppering Mr. Carroll’s companies are that they have been told to play hard ball with Irish developers.

    Imagine my utter astonishment when the above sentence is turned into the following sentence by one Esterelle…..”Robert Browne talks about ACC being told to play ball with developers, What bullshit.” Play ball, and play hard ball, have diametrically opposite meanings, If you must quote me, please quote me!

    As regards the now infamous 20 economists and today’s 46 economists who have made radically different proposals about NAMA, proposals that would, safeguard the publics investment rather than the banks, shareholders and bondholders . it seems, these people do not exist! Oh and don’t forget to read the indefatigable Constantin Gurdgiev a lecturer in Trinity who has a blog called “True Economics” and who has put forward a brilliant alternative to NAMA.

    What exactly do they have to do, to get through to people like our friend Estrelle? Go on violent protests or hunger strikes about NAMA? Or maybe, they should take Bertie’s advice for David McWilliams, that is, if they do not like NAMA “just go and commit suicide!” A great tried and trusted FF solution instead of legitimate debate.

    As regards the 2 trillion dollars the US banks have pumped into their economy. How on God’s earth would the surviving and chosen few not be profitable? After printing it they don’t just throw the money out the doors of helicopters. It is distributed by banks in various forms of government backed securities. The US banks still have to deal with the flop in commercial property (like ourselves) which will be bigger than the residential sub prime debacle. Also, mounting redit card debt not to neglect unemployment which in any event is a lagging indicator which continues to rise. These banks do not make money from lending to businesses anymore they make money from distributing government backed securities raising and selling corporate bonds and financing governments global fiscal debts.

    Despite the media blitz this crisis is far from over . Things will not revert to “normal” or the status quo. We are witnessing a seismic shift in the world economic landscape. 3 out of 5 people on this planet are Asian, the Chinese stimulus package was financed from their own reserves of cash, they did not borrow a cent. Compare that, with the US and it is easy to see where the fault lines in the US “recovery” are.

    As for Ireland, our sub prime government has to go and not be replaced with the other sub prime parties. We need 3 things and we need them fast . A new constitution A new political system. Finally, a road map for the country to show us how we are going to get from being bankrupt to becoming, for the first time in our history a prosperous country that produces products other than apartments and houses and which does not overpay our public servants 40 million Euro every single day. Otherwise, it is business as usual for FF and a journey without maps for the rest of us, which is exactly what NAMA is.

  59. Conan get real. When recovery starts there will be unlimited potential for well run financial institutions to kick start business. And remember we will only have home grown Banks this time around. The ACC’s of this world will not be returning for quite a while. To deny that there is massive scope for successful Banking enterprises is to admit that this Country is totally dead economically. If you are trying to make some sort of socialist point that profit is bad and unethical, well then thats something else. As for Bock, it looks like he’s getting a little hot under the collar. Another socialist perhaps raging at the prospect of somebody being rewarded for hard work.
    The facts speak for themselves. And as for the tactics of some contributors to this site who would rather intimidate any dissenter from “the majority point of view”, let me say this I am not in the business of being intimidated by anybody, bully or otherwise. I am perfectly entitled to have my say and thats what I will do and this machine shows no sign of running out of oil.

  60. Robert: Hardball, softball it all amounts to the same. ACC were in like Flynn after the big bucks which they thought they could extract from this country. Things go a little awry and there is a quick policy shift at Rabo HQ
    Suddenly the Irish Superior Courts are expected to facilitate their decision regardless of the consequences for this country. No thank you.

  61. Robert — Of course Esterelle misquoted you. He’ll twist your words every time if it suits him, because honesty is not what this person cares about.

    He’s the voice of greed and desperation on behalf of the gamblers who bought into the financial institutions in the hope of a fast buck. These people will never rest and you will never change their minds.

    Incidentally, I’ve just noticed Esterelle saying he’s perfectly entitled to have his say and that’s what he’ll do.


    His comments go up here at my discretion.

    Such presumption will get a person blocked from almost any site, but I have slightly more patience than that. Not a lot, but a little. However, I won’t be told what I must publish on this site.

    Esterelle has the right to say what he wants on his own site should he choose to set one up, but if he thinks he has an absolute right to his say on this site, he should think again. He doesn’t have that right in the lowliest of free hand-out newspapers, or spamming websites and he won’t get it here either if he doesn’t show more respect to his fellow contributors.

    I don’t provide a free platform for people like Esterelle to patronise other commenters, twist their words or direct ad hominem digs at them. He can do that on his own time – not on mine.

    In internet terms, Esterelle is what’s known as a troll : somebody who sets out to disrupt a discussion and cause a quarrel.

    For now, I’ll put him on hold while we have a vote.

    Who thinks Esterelle is a serious contributor and who thinks he’s a troll?

  62. Bock, feel free to ban me if you wish. I want to engage in serious debate but if you only want people with a particular point of view on your site then thats fine by me. As for the ad hominem digs, I think most of those have been directed at me but I expect that you wouldn’t be including those.

  63. “Two legs good four legs bad.” ” Two legs good four legs better” Yes, it seems Esterelle just makes it up as he goes along and any old gibberish will do. He is being disingenuous. if that makes him a Troll then I guess he is a troll.

  64. Robert — No. That doesn’t make him a troll. People send all sorts of nonsense here and most of it stays up. Disagreeing with others is ok as well and most people disagree with me.

    What I will not put up with, however, is being dictated to, and nobody is going to tell me what comments I have to publish.

    Esterelle — On this site, people ban themselves by failing to respect other commenters or by taking me for an idiot. You are free to disagree with me, but I don’t like you advising others to get real or to get used to it. I don’t like you calling their opinions shit and crap as a substitute for rational debate. I don’t like your cracked-record repetition of the “only game in town” and I don’t like the fact that you choose to ignore direct questions from other people when they don’t suit you.

    All that adds up to a very bombastic dinner guest. The sort who kills conversation and sends everyone home early.

  65. Esterelle, the ownership of banks is a moveable feast. One day they’re Irish, the next day they’re Australian, or Dutch or Scottish or the nationality of whatever mega-bank wants a slice of us and can see a healthy margin in the lack of competiton in the over-priced financial services sector in Ireland.

    Your exhortation to me to “get real” is in fact a code for “get selfish”, or “get greedy”. It speaks of a desire for a return to the values, ethics and thinking which landed our society in this mess. You speak of a desire to debate but you do not debate.

    We may, as you say, need banks, but the kind of banking/lending system we put in place should be one that can not repeat the mistakes of the last decade. To my mind prudence is a greater consideration than profit. Profitmaking can be ethical, and any socialist will agree that a person should profit from their labour. However, publicly quoted banks and financial institutions are businesses and should either be allowed to go to the wall if they fail, or be permitted to operate only within strictly sanctioned legislation if they wish to be bonded, in effect, by the public purse.

    We are witnessing a massive failure of un-restrained capitalism, with terrible social consequences. Those of us who disagree with the government’s response believe the government should be acting in the public interest, not in the interests of the individuals, banks and businesses that have failed because of their collective dysfunctional greed.

    NAMA is the government putting a bandage on the failed thinking of the last decade, and allowing the perpetrators off the hook. It’s called socialising the losses. When I see Liam Carroll, Sean FitzPatrick, and all the other speculators, developers, senior bank directors and execs begging on O’Connell Bridge then I think it’ll be time enough to ask the citizens of Ireland to give the banks a dig out.

  66. And remember we will only have home grown Banks this time around. The ACC’s of this world will not be returning for quite a while.

    And you think these are good things?

    ACC were in like Flynn after the big bucks which they thought they could extract from this country.

    You make it sound like they’re trying to syphon money from the state, rather than recoup, at a loss, some money from a failed private commericial enterprise.

  67. Bock

    nevermind Esterelle’s attempts at finagling the debate. It all comes down to questions and facts instead of bluster.

    Questions I would like answered:

    1. Are any of the judges (or close family membersof same) of the High & Supreme Courts likely to benefit financially from NAMA going through in it’s current FF / Green form?
    2. If so have they voted / judged on cases regarding NAMA, and how have they voted / judged?
    3. Are any TDs / Senators (or close family membersof same) likely to benefit financially from NAMA going through in it’s current FF / Green form?
    4. If so have they voted / judged on cases regarding NAMA, and how they have voted / judged or intend to at this moment in time?

    Personally I think it’s good that Dan Boyle, among others is getting crap from long serving Green Party Members about NAMA.. http://www.independent.ie/national-news/greens-urge-party-tds-to-reject-nama-1869138.html

    I’m not holding my breath at the moment seeing as they have managed to ditch every principle that they previously held in order to get their hands on power in Planet Bertie!

  68. This post isn’t about the court case. It’s about why the Irish banks are undermining the ACC application.

    The court case is irrelevant.

  69. Bock may I respectfully suggest to you that I have taken considerable flak from several contributors here and I note that others who hold my viewpoint have also been pilloried. So if I and people like me decide to fight back when our viewpoints are rubbished by you and others, does that mean we must be banned. I particularly draw your attention to your response to Abe Pearce at point 32. I am a serious contributor here, not a troll. But I want my point of view acknowledged for what it is. If you do not want to hear it then I have no problem with being banned.

  70. Your point of view is welcome here as long as you’re willing to engage in debate instead of simply lecturing.

    My reply to Abe Pearce did not refer to his argument. It referred to his statement that he didn’t like what I was saying. I have no interest in that and as I told him, I don’t give a flying fuck what he likes. That’s a simple statement of fact and isn’t the same thing as saying that his opinion is shit. I still respect his opinion even if I disagree with it.

    This site is about robust debate, but I don’t like commenters disparaging or dismissing other commenters. It’s much better when people put away the fingers and start to engage with each other with a view to producing a synthesis.

  71. Just thought i’d mention there’s a “No to NAMA” facebook group with about seven and a half thousand members if anyone uses it , which gives details of green party email address which might be part of the reason for why “GREEN Party TDs and councillors are wading through a deluge of emails” from Marks link above.

  72. The Green Party will not be pulling the plug on NAMA regardless of any campaign by anyone. They know the realities of doing that and the consequences for Ireland, internationally. Beside there would be a General Election and then there would be a Green free Dail, not something the leadership of the party could contemplate. Good to see that ACC (Rabo Bank) have been decent enough to announce their strategic decision to pull out of Ireland, ahead of the Court case.

  73. Beside there would be a General Election and then there would be a Green free Dail, not something the leadership of the party could contemplate.

    I would imagine that if they did pull the plug they would get a lot more respect and consequently more votes. but who knows…

  74. But could they take the chance, probably not. They are almost Councillor free as it stands after the Locals.
    Politics is a funny old game and people in power who have big decisions to make rarely get any respect whereas the opposition parties invariably do, until they get in themselves. The chattering classes who frequent pubs and bookie offices daily have a right to vote too, you know, and they dont vote for people who reduce their dole.

  75. Mark — As you remarked at comment 7, Also if anyone is stupid enough to think that ACC will win their case as they should, well they deserve everything they get.

    I’m sure that the supreme court judges are working feverishly to come up with a form of words to undermine the high court ruling to ensure that the gravy train keeps on running (over us that is).

    As it turns out, ACC won their case.

    Have you anything to add?

  76. The reason why ACC won their case was as much to do with the court system preserving itself. It knew that people in Ireland, never mind people abroad, with any modicum of intelligence would have laughed their head off at the insanity of giving Carroll a life line of examinership. Where else in the world would you get banks lining up to defend an insolvent company that owes them over a billion and even offering to lend more to Zoe. The revenue commissioners were even in on the act by refusing to demand the millions in taxes and VAT owed. It took a Dutch bank to do the right thing and now Lenihan is bleeting that they have done us all a favor. He certainly was not saying that two weeks ago as he was keeping his fingers crossed for Zoe.

    Yes, the court made the right decision, finally, second time round, but it should never have got to the stage where the courts were being assailed at 9.30 at night leading later to arguments being made that saving the “shoe box king” was “in the national interest.” These are people who equate their own self interest with the national interest. In other words, if it is good for them it is good for all of us.

    Carroll accumulated his money by condemning many, many people to live in what are essentially modern slums. He gambled the money he made and he lost. Full stop. It is only right and fitting that at last the courts finally summoned up the courage to tell him he is insolvent. At least, they have drawn a line under one developers folly and greed. I for one wish they continued with this work and cleaned the system of all insolvent developers one by one so that the country did not have to sell its soul to NAMA.

    Finally, I hope the Greens this weekend stand up to Gormley, Boyle and Ryan and remind them that they are not in power to borrow vast sums of money from the ECB to hand over to NAMA, when the dogs in the street know, that these borrowings should be used instead as an economic stimulus package to both create and sustain jobs in Ireland. The Greens have been drawn foolishly into trying to modify NAMA when they should have being busy burying it. All we can hope for is that the ordinary Green party member ignores Mr. Gormley, Mr. Garrett FitzGerald, Mr. Alan Dukes and FF. Lets hope they bring their shovels with them this weekend and get rid of NAMA. If they do, they can have my vote in a General election. If they don’t they can start to carve NAMA on their collective headstone.

  77. If I could play you a fanfare, i would, but I can’t.

    So therefore, instead, I’ll simply say Hear Hear.

    That sums it up precisely.

    Tell them to shove Nama.

  78. Interesting though isnt that if Carroll and Co. won their case NAMA would be seriously undermined. Strange too that virtually all the posters here have an anti NAMA agenda whilst also having a serious anti Carroll agenda. Cant have it both ways guys although I know you would like to. Still good to see that the anti NAMA march in Dublin on Saturday turned out to be a damp squib with a few hundred attending. There were predictions on Saturday morning of a 50,000 turnout. And good to see that Carroll and Co. are appealing the High Court decision to the Supreme Court. Perhaps their day has arrived.

  79. Anti-NAMA is anti-Carroll? Now I know you’re taking the piss.

    As an individual, Carroll isn’t significant enough to take seriously.

    I’ll tell you what my agenda is though: it’s for the future of my children. Don’t even think of casting a slur on that.

  80. Speaking of dodging issues Esterelle, about 45 posts ago I asked you if could tell me why the government seem determined to pay more than the actual value of the NAMA assets. You never replied.

  81. Wrinkley, there is a very specific formula for the calculation of the value of the assets you refer to. It is not a matter of the Government being determined to pay more or less than their true worth. If the correct balance is not struck one way or the other NAMA will not achieve its optimum potential. Of course at the end of the day the Government must approve the valuation. The sooner the better.

  82. Would you care to quote that formula?

    Even if you don’t understand it yourself, you can copy and paste it.

    We’ll be able to figure it out.

    Alternatively, please post a link to where it can be found.

  83. I read in my “Herald” that just 13% of the 150 Green Party activists from around the country back NAMA. I take it that co-designer Eamon Ryan, John Gormley and Dan Boyle are all pro NAMA and included in that figure of 13%.

    It was great to see Gormley looking so ashen faced when he realised that the grass roots are refusing to plough 60 billion of tax payer debt into NAMA. I was wondering if the real Greens were going to let their party go down the tubes, seems not! Now they have my vote! Next step, bring in new Canadian and Chinese banks now. Let’s start renovating some new premises for them! After all we have their Chinese take away’s all over the place. Im sure small businesses would not mind a few “takeaways!”

  84. Bock, its a little too complicated for you guys too follow. Its based on common sense. Now work that out.
    But you will soon know whether it has been done correctly. If the Bank shares rocket in value on the day of the announcement, you will know that a mistake has been made in the valuation and old Wrinkley will have been proven right. And Robert, these activists you refer to, they would include all those Green Councillors who got chucked out in the Local Elections. They are obviously well qualified and suitably mandated to decide on such a vital issue. Give us a break.

  85. Bock,

    I’ve been away for the last week so haven’t been around to comment. I didn’t even know that Carroll lost until last night. As to your question about me having anthing to add. Well, I was wrong on that. I have no problem about admitting when I’m wrong, but then again I don’t have an agenda other than seeing this blatant attempt to loot the nations coffers and make everyone else pay for it for the next 20 plus years. Like many on here.

    To my cynical eyes I see the whole thing as a process which is being drawn out purely to get Carroll over the NAMA line. Win a case, and get examinership, lose one and appeal. Lose that, resubmit and appeal if you lost that one. All the while stopping Carrolls “assets” being sold at market prices before NAMA is in place. Of course I could be wrong about that too. I’d love to be proven wrong and to know that official Ireland is working for all our benefits instead of it’s own self interest.

    Robert put it better than I could. But to me it’s a an extension of the shit that we’ve had go on for years It’s the kind of shit that has been going on for years. Bank regulator, can’t regulate? Don’t worry here’s €600k pension. Fas chairman caught out on expenses, don’t worry here’s an extra €1.4 million for your pension. NAMA is just an extension of this crap (albeit one on steroids). Get caught out and head off into the sunset with even more money. Its the FF way. The banks know that for them NAMA is the only game in town so of course they’re going to line up to support Carroll as his failing is a direct threat to NAMA.

    Robert, good to hear that only 13% of the green activists support NAMA. Like I said I’ve been away. I know that a lot of real greens as you call them got dispirited with the whole thing and resigned from the party. If the majority of them were still members, you could be sure that NAMA wouldn’t go through. But that might be a topic for another thread. I’m sure Bock will enlighten us!

  86. Esterelle — You stated as follows: “there is a very specific formula for the calculation of the value of the assets”.

    Quote it.

  87. And Mark dont believe that Receivers and Liquidators sell at “Market Value” They sell at knock down rates and there is normally very little advertising or market forming. Any why would Liam Carroll want to have anything to do with NAMA? From a Developers perspective its devil or deep blue sea. Perhaps total liquidation might even be preferable. There will be no future for Developers anyway even those who were well advised and retained very few property assets and used sub-contractors for all jobs.

  88. Esterelle — You made an assertion, pretending to answer Wrinkley Joe’s question, but you didn’t back it up with facts.

    Stand over what you said or stand exposed as a waffler.

  89. If you can’t back it up, don’t quote it. You were trying to blind him with waffle, in the great old blustering tradition.

    That doesn’t work here.

    There’s no substance to you.

  90. Your opinion Bock. You are entitled to believe that if you wish but I never stated I would detail it. Please do not pretend or imply that I did.

  91. Apart from saying that the formula will give a different percentage for different institutions, further I will not go.
    Bluffer me bollix.

  92. Let’s revisit the conversation.

    Wrinkley Joe said “the problem is what percentage of value will the government pay the banks for these loans”, and asked you to elaborate.

    Your reply was “there is a very specific formula for the calculation of the value of the assets”

    I asked “Would you care to quote that formula?”

    You answered “its a little too complicated for you guys too (sic) follow”

    When pressed, you continued with

    “I am not at liberty to unveil it as you well know.”

    and most recently

    “Apart from saying that the formula will give a different percentage for different institutions, further I will not go.”

    Why don’t you just say “I don’t know”?

    You’d look a lot better if you just admitted you were making it up to try and win an argument. As matters stand, you’re looking sillier and sillier.

  93. The problem with the percentage estimated prior to it’s revelation was that all the predictions made by financial experts were perfectly accurate, same experts spoke out against NAMA and put several realistic proposals forward, they were not consulted, they were ignored.
    To state that NAMA is the ” only show in town ” is like going to a restaurant where you know, only porridge and caviar are on the menu.
    Big point you are ignoring Esterelle, firstly, no bank has commited to a productive restart of the lending process with the introduction of NAMA.
    It’s a bit rich of Esterelle also to refuse to supply detail while requesting Bock to ” step up to the plate ”
    What plate specifically ?

  94. It is pointless engaging with the likes of esterlle it has a mind set in stone. For it NAMA is the answer to life the universe and everything. Carroll is a God above the law. The fact that the court has found his financial projections “fanciful” is of no consequence . The Lord Carroll is above all that. I am of the opinion that esterlle like Carroll is in denial. “When” the economy picks up what about “IF” ? I do hope for its sake that esterlle has no children because they shall be paying for this crap for the rest of their lives.

    As far as I am concerned the entity calling itself esterlle can bladder away. Its opinions are pointless and the dieing wasp this Government is will sting it through whatever we think.

  95. It doesn’t matter if the economy picks up. That won’t increase the price of property.

    The thing that inflated house prices over the last ten years was an uncontrolled flood of credit, which meant there was no limit on the amount people would bid for residential property. If the price went up, they just went back to the bank and got some more money, plus an extra 5% to buy a car.

    Those days won’t come back for a long, long time, and certainly not within the horizon contemplated by the government for Nama to recoup its losses.

    Look what they have advising them about future property values for Christ’s sake. An estate agent!!

    One of the people who got it completely wrong.

    It’s insanity combined with magical thinking and a lot of corruption.

  96. I thought you weren’t visiting again Abe. You’re abusing my hospitality posting under different names.

    Do you take me for an idiot?

    You and Roisin are both barred. Now fuck off.

  97. The farce, goes on, and on, and on. This Justice and that Chief Justice and his Lordship and the right most honorable Justice will give their most expert and considered judgement as to whether Vantive holdings are to be permitted, once again, to bring their case to the Supreme Court, to be heard, once again, by our most honorable and most wise and most learned judges who will once again rule…. Say a prayer for us all, as I fear we are all doomed!

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