I don't know what sort of man Pat Burke was.
For all I know, he was the violent, abusive, bullying thug his wife says he was.
For all I know, he deserved to be killed. Maybe so. Maybe he deserved to have his brains beaten out with a hammer by his wife.
I know this, though. It's one thing to talk about a woman's motivation in killing a man. You can do that, and you can speculate on what sort of monster the dead man might have been, or not, since he isn't around to defend his good name. But on no account may you speculate on the process by which a man came to be the killer of a woman.
Such thoughts are verboten.
Why is this?
It was explained to the court how Anne Burke arrived at the point where she killed her husband. That mental process was explored in detail, but you know, I didn't hear any of the right-on liberal feel-good brigade complaining, even though the intention of that argument was to justify the killing.
Of course I'm referring to the posse of self-righteous hypocrites who lost their reason when I asked the same question about David Bourke who murdered his wife: What was the mental process that brought him to the point where he murdered his partner?
I asked this question in an entirely dispassionate way, out of curiosity. What stages did David Bourke pass through on his way to becoming a murderer?, and I discovered that you don't have to scratch very deep before a troop of kindergarten bullies emerge to shout you down.
I realised then that there is little or no difference between these people's mindset and that of the despicable clergy who have kept our country in ignorance for so long.
You see, freedom of inquiry is fine, as long as it's the approved version.
It will always be such with the libs. Like, Voltaire they'll disagree with what you say but fight to the death for your right to say it – as long as it is their version of what should be said.
Well, it's strange you should say that. I'd consider myself liberal, but the people I refer to here are absolutely authoritarian and rigid. The opposite of liberal.
Should have said some libs
Like you, I'd be interested to compare the comments on this one to the Bourke thread. Somehow I think you'll get less patriarchy comments, even ones from those who believe her and use it as a justification for her (probable) "he was abusing me so much I had to kill him instead of leave him and go to a shelter" argument.
But apart from all that, it's another tragedy.
Very interesting set of posts (I've just read both). I can understand your point perfectly – and I agree that if motivation is a factor, then it should be allowed in all cases. Part of the reaction you encounter may be simply because of the fraught nature of intimate relationships. I don't know anything about either case outside of your posts, but I see no reason, per se, to suppose that Mr Bourke could not have been motivated by years of mental and physical abuse, as Ms Burke claims to be. On the other hand, I see no reason why a woman might not be just as much motivated by pure possessive jealousy as Mr Bourke was claimed to be. This, to me, is not necessarily a gender issue. For example, if you consider a pairing of two men or two women and find that:
1) at the end of a long history of abuse of A by B that A kills B – there is bound to be some sympathy for A's argument of "self-defense" although everyone would much prefer that help to end the relationship had been sought instead – acres of print have examined the difficulties individuals encounter in doing so.
2) at the point of realising that, for whatever reason, A is about to leave B for another partner, B kills A – there is a lot less sympathy for B who hated being abandoned – in modern times we believe that individuals are not possessions, and that they should be autonomous, and capable of surviving independently of others, even those who reject our love and our need, and that no threat or power should constrain an individual who wishes to leave their current partner, whatever vows they have sworn.
These are the two (broad strokes) dramas that are compared here, and it is notable that in some countries yet, and that at many times in the past, public sympathy might have rested firmly with the partner responding to being abandoned more than with the partner putting up with ongoing abuse. Both end up being crimes of passion, born in the transformative heat of failed intimacy.
Sure, Bock, no one could talk of these things without hitting some emotional triggers. And, with regard to these dramas, I imagine most of us identify, somewhat at least, with the partner sharing our own gender. And my feeling about what may motivate at least some of the comments in the Bourke thread is this. It can be very scary for a woman to discover the depth of a man's need of her – and to discover that his need of her may lead to her death should she ever reject him. (Obviously not every man and every woman – but in the case of domestic murder, this often appears to be a large part of the dynamic). We need to think that such men would take a more rational approach to such a situation… and perhaps, have not yet found the effective way to lobby that it should be so. Perhaps we could usefully apply ourselves to thinking more in terms of helping men who have been left by their partners to find comfort and dignity in that situation.
The locality of Ballybrittas knew what a terror Pat Burke was to his wife and family. When the locality became aware of his death on August 19th, sympathy for him was not the first thing to come to the people’s minds.
he probably deserved it women only kill when pushed to their limits of abuse, she will probably recieve a longer jail term than a man would for a similar crime because its deemed so horrific for a woman to kill a man look at the mulhall sisters dat man was an animal
Msrainman, maybe he did deserve it but then maybe Rachel O'Reilly and Siobhán Kearney deserved to as well, but I doubt it. Very few people deserve to be murdered (I excuse drug dealers) even less deserve to have there skulls smashed by a hammer when sleeping. And to say that women only kill when pushed to their limits of abuse is typical of the femininst bullshit that has gathered pace over the last number of years. Women murder for the same reason as men, some of them are violent cunts.
Laoisvoice:
. And this brings up another aspect of these stories – if the "locality" knew – why did no one offer help? Does that make the "locality" eligible for a measure of the blame for Mr Burke's death?
laoisvoice and Msrainman- Let me get this clear. Are you saying he deserved to be murdered?
She was found guilty but not of sound mind at time of murder and there was a history of Mental illness, She is unlikely to serve her sentence in a prison but in a Psychiatric facility.
I find it deeply disturbing though , That Laoisevoice commented that " The locality of Ballybrittas knew…………." Did anyone ever intervene ? Offer help and assistance ?
Apparantly she had a Safety Order imposed on him at some point, Were they as a family failed by State ?
There is no justification for Murder, Not even the continued systematic violence and abuse suffered by both men and women and most especially children,
There is little doubt that people who commit murder under extreme domestic circumstances have visited a place that few can identify with.
It is difficult to compare this to the David Bourke circumstances, for no gender reason but because he was found to be of sound mind, but was he really ?.
Are there too many reasons as to why people in violent, abusive and distressing home situations don't leave the environment where such misery resides ?
If there was a safety order imposed on Pat Burke, Why was he not ordered to attend a programme to deal with his behaviour ? What kind of a system do we have here to protect families from domestic abuse ? And if the Health service were aware of her mental health, Why was she not under the monitering of the local mental health nurse, or was she ?
Scotlyn; Very insightful comment, Only one question though, Do you not think that both Men and Women need help in finding comfort and dignity when faced with abandonment ?
Equally the "depth of need " toward a partner, whichever gender displays that extreme need can be very frightening, Which brings me to the importance of personal and individual growth within a relationship, because a relationship does not have a life or direction of it's own, It is entirly dependent on the two people conducting it, together and alone.
When was the last time a man was found to be "not sound of mind" rather than quilty of murdering his spouse?
no. 8 the Rachel O Rielly and Sibhaun Kearney cases are totally different there was no domestic violence involved in these cases as far as im aware those men killed for monetary gain and so joe couild start a new life wit dat dog nikki. i totally agree very few people deserve to be murdered (peadophiles being the exception) but if someone has been mentally abused, bullied and used as a punchbag for fuck knows how long id have little or no sympathy for the man who was then killed by his long suffering victim.
Whether or not you have sympathy for him is irrelevant. The question is if it's acceptable to murder him.
He was a man not to be messed with. If anyone tried to intervene, he would have been liable to do anything, so people kept to themselves out of fear of him.
I understnd he was a thoroughly detestable individual. The question is whether you think anyone had the right to kill him.
Definitly no sympathy,did he show is wife any when he was kicking seven shades out of her BUT no its not acceptable to kill anyone.she was more than likely at her wits end a broken woman with nowhere or no one to turn to and its very sad.
I don't have any sympathy for him myself, having heard what his daughter said about him. However, this post is about the broader issue of double standards.
If it's permissible to speculate about the state of mind of a woman who kills a man, then it should also be possible to do the same in relation to a man who kills his wife.
Unfortunately, however, there are some people who think otherwise.
the majority of men who kill women do so for sexual kicks, out of jelousy, through drugs/alcohol or are simply materially motivated, women kill out of self defence or mental illness, but each case is totally different so ill leave it at that for now, keep up the great work bock.
Men are brutes, you seem to be saying. I don't think I'd get away with such a generalisation about women.
Bock, it comes under the Sisterhoods generalisation rule No. 1:- "All Men are Bastards".
Basic criminology
Basic mind-reading.
"Women kill out of self defence and mental illness " What a crazy statement.
It certainly brings into question are men and women treated differently by the courts ? I was certain the jury would struggle between murder and manslaughter in the case of David Bourke but they did'nt.
I'm sure there were many factors which brought the jury to their conclusion but the overview is curious.
Anne Burke claimed she started drinking when she got married to cope with her husbands abuse, She also claimed she started drinking at 10 oc the morning of the manslaughter,, Surely the alcohol abuse was a contribitory factor in her severe depression, So if both parents were abusing alcohol for 32 years what was life like for the children in that house and who was protecting them during all that time. Maybe there was little she could have done about her husbands violence, But 32 years of alcohol abuse could have been addressed by herself.
Pat Burke sounds like a thoroughly dispicable character, There was systematic physical mental and emotional abuse, but Anne Burke, admittedly drinking for several hours prior to the manslaughter still waited until he was asleep before bashing his head in 23 times.
Was it manslaughter because she suffered such abuse and was severly depressed ? If so , then is it not entirly possible that the emotional abuse David Bourke suffered also caused him to temporarily lose sanity, A man with no history of violence, No justification for murdering his wife but the latitudes shown by the Courts do seem to lean toward women, The jury in the Anne Burke trial were made up of 8 men and 4 women.
Erin Pizzey founder of the first modern “refuge” for abused Women in 1971 got into hot water. Because she formed the opinion that most domestic violence is reciprocal and that the majority of Women in these situations are as capable of violence as the Men. Only a ”real” Man would resort to using his fist. All others are wimps and faggots. I am of the opinion that anyone irrespective of Sex who can kill their partner is not of sound mind. Whether this should be accepted as an excuse or not is another question.
It strikes me that part of the difficulty in these discussions is that we assume that if an aggressor is BAD that that automatically makes the victim GOOD. A tempting assumption, all the more tempting for people who decide to make a life career out of victimhood, but it doesn't wash. There is no special virtue in being a victim, it doesn't mean you're an especially good person. It just means that in that place at that time, someone else exercised power over you, and for whatever reason, they were able to.
Bock, if you are objecting to that strand of feminism that appears to glory in victimhood and to presume that victimhood = righteousness, then I couldn't agree with you more. That is not an attitude becoming to adults of any sex.
And I can sympathise with the reasons why you feel that certain types of discussions get unfairly curtailed. Personally I would be in favour of more of this sort of discussion rather than less, so long as we are all trying, in genuine ways, to make room for discussions that are still so necessary about how we experience living in our different genders and the effect that has on how we perceive, for example, a murder.
For me, murder is never acceptable. Rape is never acceptable. Using a person either as a punching bag or as a psychological experiment in humiliation is never acceptable. Treating any human being as if they exist to fulfil your own wishes is never acceptable. Gender matters not.
But these things do not happen in a vacuum – here is this "locality" where everything is known, nothing is acknowledged, no help is offered. Here are two parents, both with alcohol problems, both with unstable personalities, their children left to make the best of it. The murder (or manslaughter, if we are speaking judicially) of Mr Burke is clearly the tail end of a long complicated story.
It is only natural, Bock, that wonderings about his side of the story should echo through your mind, as a person of male gender, while wonderings about her side of the story are more likely to echo through the minds of those of us of a female gender. That's natural. But it's also why we need more, rather than less, talk, why I, for example, need to hear more rather than less, of what goes on in the minds and hearts of men like yourself. There is no excuse for anyone trying to shut down this kind of conversation, that makes no sense.
I couldn't agree with you more. But you can read as well as anyone else, and you saw the demented, irrational ranting that went on when I wrote about David Bourke. And not just from women, but also from men, for reasons best known to themselves.
msrainman – the majority of men who kill women do so for sexual kicks, out of jelousy, through drugs/alcohol or are simply materially motivated, women kill out of self defence or mental illness, but each case is totally different so ill leave it at that for now, keep up the great work bock.
Bock – Men are brutes, you seem to be saying. I don’t think I’d get away with such a generalisation about women.
unbelievable
Were you making a point?
Gary Ireland; It's a great reference you made, Erin Pizzy who selflessly founded the womens refuge in Chiswick, Her drive and determination to seek a real solution to the problems of domestic abuse made her a hate figure by the womens movement, most especially "The angry brigade" a very violant extreme movement at the time.
Erin stated that not every woman involved in domestic abuse was a victim, she convincingly showed the importance of distinguishing between the "emotional terrorist addicted to pain and provoking violence and the those truly seeking escape from violence " These views were very controversial back then and still are to-day because we cannot get beyond the point where perpetrator = bad and victim = good.
As the womans movement proceeded to take over the refuge intent on banning all men, Her withdrawel became inevitable.
An amazing woman who devoted her life to a cause and ended up penniless. living on income supplement still trying to write on the subject , I wish her all the best and hope she never compromises on the truth.
Does anyone remember the case of John and Lorena Bobbitt? In 1993 John returned home after a night drinking and went to bed (presumably very drunk). Lorena claimed he raped her , so she cut his penis off. It seems they were married in 1989 and did not divorce until 1995, John Bobbitt was later charged with a list of charges of abuse against his next wives . Lorena was later charged with assaulting her mother. I am of the opinion that in this case there was a pair of them in it. Abuse by women of men in relationships does happen. It is very seldom reported.
Gary, Another interesting one ! any woman i ever heard referring to the Bobbit case did so with a large dose of humour, yet had it been the other way round that would not be the reaction.
There are many theories as to why men/women torture and provoke each other and invite humiliation and all manner of abuse into their lives, One theory is that the lack of mature , considered and loving intimacy is replaced by abuse, It being manifested as a form of focus and attention and power play.
It is not only possible but very real that people both men and women will feed negative and dangerous habit's to the same degree that good and positive habit's will be fed.
A very wise lady said to me a long time ago " It takes one person to destroy a relationship, It takes two people to make it work " I have found this to be true.
5 years suspended sentence, Thank God, Anne Burke got justice at last, that poor woman and her children lived in fear all her married life.
I pray she can now moved forward with hope, love and peace in her heart.
Please don't make nasty and negative comments about this very tragic sad case, let this family live in peace and harmony, they deserve that much.
I heard that Bobbit got it sewn back on and made a fortune in blue movies. The Bobbit Uncut one was his finest hour
re Christina / 34.. i am in full agreement with you, what little i know about the case will make me carefull not to comment without consideration of the facts, however, having watched my sister live through an abusive marrage in which the brutality ,physical and mental was tempered with frequent appologies, and promises of reform by her husband which came to nothing. eventually resulting in her running away with her two children, the husband continued to persue her untill "HE" found someone else.. my sister put up with the marital abuse for around 4 years and the following stalking for a further year… i cant begin to imagine what hell Mrs Burke and her family endured in what i believe was over 30 years with Pat Burke… i hope Mrs Burke and her children can find peace and some kind of closure…
Christina — Where are the nasty comments about Anne Burke?