Israel Attacks Aid Convoy

Deaths reported as convoy boarded

Israeli marines boarded a ship, MV Mavi Marmara, in international waters and killed 9 of the passengers.  No marines were killed, though some were injured in the fight.

It doesn’t matter that the ship was outside Israeli territorial waters, or that armed military personnel forcibly boarded it.  The Israelis in this case were still the victims as they always are.

Israel says the passengers on the ship attacked its marines with sharpened objects, steel bars and with guns taken from them.  It seems that the passengers reacted in a highly aggressive way to the appearance of masked armed men in the middle of the night, and in a highly terrorist way, fought back with any weapon that came to hand including the masked men’s own guns.

Any fool knows that you can’t be hitting armed masked men with iron bars if they happen to be Israeli soldiers.  That would make you a terrorist.

Another ship in the very same waters, 63 years ago was boarded by military personnel and the passengers also fought back.  But Israel would never accuse those passengers of attacking the soldiers, because those passengers were Jews fleeing Europe aboard the SS Exodus 1947, and the soldiers were British.

So there you have it.  When is self-defence not self-defence?

Everyone who resists Israel is a terrorist, you see.  Remember that and you can’t go wrong.



Autopsy results

Cengiz Alquyz, 42

Four gunshot wounds: back of head, right side of face, back, left leg

Ibrahim Bilgen, 60

Four gunshot wounds: right chest, back, right hip, right temple

Cegdet Kiliclar, 38

One gunshot wound: middle of forehead

Furkan Dogan, 19

Five gunshot wounds: nose, back, back of head, left leg, left ankle

Sahri Yaldiz

Four gunshot wounds: left chest, left leg, right leg twice

Aliheyder Bengi, 39

Six gunshot wounds: left chest, belly, right arm, right leg, left hand twice

Cetin Topcuoglu, 54

Three gunshot wounds: back of head, left side, right belly

Cengiz Songur, 47

One gunshot wound: front of neck

Necdet Yildirim, 32

Two gunshot wounds: right shoulder, left back

235 thoughts on “Israel Attacks Aid Convoy

  1. Is there any protest planned or possible ,in Limerick,,,,regarding what happened this morning

  2. I hear one is being organised in Dublin alright. They’re “gods people” Bock, of course you can’t touch them!

  3. It doesn’t matter if you walk the streets with placards in Ireland or anywhere. The State of Israel won’t listen, they are not interested. I suggest we create a campaign with small self-adhesive stickers with “skull and bones” overlaid on an Israeli flag, that we can all help to place on every product from Israel. As I haven’t bought (unless incorrectly labelled) any fruit or veg from Israel for the last 10 years or so, I’d be delighted to assist in labelling the produce in Irish supermarkets and shops properly with the Mark of the Killer Pirate State.

  4. Those soldiers at the end of the video don’t seem to have a clue what they are doing, must get very confusing when there are no civilizations around to shoot.

    *waits for Israel to get the ol’ slap on the wrist*

  5. This is shocking horrendous a cold blooded massacre of humanitarians on the high seas.What is just as sickening now is Israels proxy army of mealy mouthed apologists are swinging into action trying to justify it.Israel is a scumbag a fucking total absolute stinking scumbag nation and its apologists are scumbags.Israel thinks that not only can it terrorise Palestinians but that it can terrorise the entire world.The world has to isolate and impose a total embargo on this leper colony.We are told that Iran is the evil guy in the middle east but Iran would never in a million years do anything like this.Israel you are pure fucking evil.

  6. Israel is not the only country beyond criticism. Britain for Thatcher and Blair, Belgrano and Iraq. USA, countless, Bush for Iraq. France for the Rainbow Warrior. Chile for Pinochet. As long as Washington panders to the Jewish vote and its wealth you will always have injustice in the middle east.

  7. A half-decent government would respond to an attack on it’s unarmed citizens in international waters with the following minimal actions:

    a) The expulsion of the Israeli ambassador
    b) Lobbying for the suspension on the EU-Israeli Association Agreement by which we subsidise the Israeli militarised economy, the repression of the Palestinians and international crimes.

    But this government isn’t even a 16th decent. If the US/Israeli lobby won’t like it, they won’t do it.

    I believe the Irish Army has a tender out for a million rounds from an Israeli source. The main export of Israel is, unsurprisingly, instruments of death and repression and technological spin-offs from these activities.

    @God May

    Good idea on the stickers – I know for a fact that Lidl often sells new potatoes and avocados from Israel.

  8. Israeli military are imposing a complete clampdown on information while they fabricate evidence.

    We are going to be asked to be believe stuff like the following:

    A military statement said two activists were later found with pistols they had taken from Israeli commandos. The activists, the military said, had apparently opened fire “as evident by the empty pistol magazines.”

    Either Israeli commandos are shite or this is a classic “empty the magazine then put it in the other fellas hand” routine.

    From the New York Times. Predictably.

  9. Gather to express your disgust:

    Cork: Daunt Square at 1pm.

    Dublin: March to the Israeli Embassy. Leaves from The Spire, 6pm.

    Derry: Guildhall Square at 5pm.

    Belfast: City Hall at 4pm.

    Waterford: Waterford Bridge at 4pm.

    Sligo 6.00 p.m. GPO

    I don’t have Limerick details.

  10. it is probably a good idea to make sure to disseminate photos and videos of the actual event to as many servers as possible, as the Israeli government also has some pretty nasty hackers that might want to take stuff off-line.

  11. Even if it does nothing obvious I think protest is always worth it – otherwise its assumed that you don’t care and then in turn people think it doesnt matter and start to believe the propaganda bullshit. Its amazing how much people will accept after a bit of time and spin. We cannot accept this shit – Irish citizens have been attacked and other people taking in aid have been murdered. As if that wasn’t enough, we are still friends with the murderers and apparently this is OK too. Don’t worry, just keep buying Avocados and wait for Corrie to start. the top stories right now – these things are way more important than murder by a foreign power apparently.
    1. 50 cent looses a load of weight for new film role
    2. A good few people have complained to the Gardai
    3. New Corrie Storyline

  12. Yep, the propaganda is beginning to flow already:

    Peace-loving Israeli commandos were overpowered by Al Qaeda operatives posing as European peaceniks. Said operatives then started firing at each other resulting in considerable loss of life and injury. Some Israeli soldiers were unfortunately caught in the cross-fire.

  13. as far as I have heard, there’s be a gathering this evening at the Absolute Hotel in Limerick at 18:00
    If we’re lucky, there’ll be self-adhesive stickers available.

  14. It’s beyond disgusting what this shower of fuckers are allowed to get away with. Maybe the aid workers had capers of mass destruction.

  15. That ship, the Mavi Marmara, was singled out for searching because it was sponsored by IHH, an Islamist charity with extremely dodgy ties. In fact, IHH who were on the ship, and responsible for this fiasco, has been identified by Turkish authorities as in contact with Al Qaida, and involved in sending Jihadi fighters to Afghanistan and Chechnya.

    Israel offered the boats the chance to go to Ashdod, be checked, and then the supplies would go to Gaza. They wouldn’t do it. The supplies have been taken there now anyway.

    It was Israel’s duty to board that vessel. This was not the kind of protest seen on the streets of European capitals, except on water, said my good friend Tom Carew this morning on RTE. Wearing a Hamas T-Shirt would not allow you to bypass modern airport security, and that is the level of security needed regarding Gaza, where entry is operated by BOTH Egypt and Israel. This is the Gaza where Hamas is only one of 6 major Islamist elements, including Al Qaida , and Hamas itself had stormed an Al Qaida-occupied Mosque in South Gaza with major loss of life.

  16. Slow off the mark there @TSW. No bonus for you this month.

    You see – it was Al Qaida beating themselves up, Sarge. I know for a fact (because Haaretz reported intelligence sources in Azherbaijan who said it was so) that all the Irish activists who were on board, including the injured and missing, were members of the Ballyragget cell of Al Qaida.

  17. I was tackling the cultural jihad elsewhere I’m afraid, Mr. Pope.

    As I said in my article on this site before, labels like ‘human rights activists’ or ‘peace activists’ are often used as a gloss for groups with questionable causes and ties.

  18. thesystemworks: There were, amongst others, a couple of members of the German parliament on board, as well as the Swedish writer Henning Mankell. Do you think that these people are connected or backed by “groups with questionable causes and ties”?
    And if so, so what? They most certainly are not disguised terrorists!

    By the way, they were attacked by Israel in international waters which is against any law. They confiscated the goods and will decide which one goes to Gaza and they will supervise the distribution. Go figure what that means.
    Israel behaves as if they own the world. It’s truly a terrorist state. Full stop.

    The idea with the stickers is brilliant! If anyone has an idea where to get loads of them, I’d like to know. Otherwise I’m going to create them by copying some Israeli flag and the pirate symbol from the internet and print them on address stickers. I’m looking forward to my next shopping trip…

  19. stickers will be available this evening at the Absolute Hotel in Limerick at 18:00

  20. T.S.W. the usual “poor little Israel” crap. Israeli commandos apparently were disarmed by activists, says a lot for the commandos ,or perhaps for the Israeli spin doctors. People like you will not wriggle out of this one. The current Government of Israel and the I.D.F. have shown themselves for the filth that they are. Hopefully no more innocent people will die as a result.

  21. There may have been naive leftists on board, but that is part and parcel of the cultural jihad. It doesn’t change the fact most of the crowd were Turkish affiliates of Al-Qaeda linked IHH.

    The reason for the Flotilla 13 members being disarmed was probably because they only sent in a couple of them initially, not expecting such a violent assault. The commandos themselves were at the beginning armed with non-lethal weapons, paintball guns apparently, which proved ineffective against such a large mob.

    A man who was present said of the initial boarding of the ship:

    ”However, to their misfortune, they were only equipped with paintball rifles used to disperse minor protests, such as the ones held in Bilin. The paintballs obviously made no impression on the activists, who kept on beating the troops up and even attempted to wrest away their weapons.

    One soldier who came to the aid of a comrade was captured by the rioters and sustained severe blows. The commandoes were equipped with handguns but were told they should only use them in the face of life-threatening situations. When they came down from the chopper, they kept on shouting to each other “don’t shoot, don’t shoot,” even though they sustained numerous blows.”

    It seems one of our boys was thrown off the deck to a lower one, likely giving him serious and permanent brain damage. Why couldn’t they have just gone to Ashdod?

  22. @ thesystemworks If Pirates raid a ship in international waters, the passengers on the ship have the right to fight them off. Israel should not have raided the ship, End of.

  23. They were attempting to enter an off-limits zone. They were asked to go to Ashdod and have the aid distributed from there. 15,000 tons of aid travels by land crossings into Gaza every day.

    Peace activists?

    Israel is at war with Hamas which has attacked civilians within Israel, and one one of the ways Hamas get weapons is the sea. Maritime blockade is a legitimate tool under international law, in accordance with certain rules, when this happens. One of the requirements is the grant of ‘due notice’. Israel has granted due notice and publicized by the professional maritime channels the exact co-ordinates of the blockade. The activists declared their intent to break this blockade after many warnings. This is a regular, recognised maritime procedure, acceptable under the naval handbooks of many states such as the US and UK.

  24. Busy day for you and your buddies today ehh system.Actually I would not insult myself by reading your posts or followng your links.I know what they contain.The usual slandering of israels victims.

  25. Wow tsw, that’s almost word for word what you can find on any political forum which addresses the subject. If the Hasbara accusations start you can hardly be surprised.

    Doubtless there were less than humanitarian reasons for being there in the case of some, and sure as shit falls downward Hamas will use this for publicity but as Bock points out in the post, even at it’s most cynical it is but a repeat of the SS Exodus incident which was a Zionist instigated publicity coup. And a very well planned and sucessful one at that. Was it wrong for the British to do what they didi to the Jews who sailed from Sete in the south of France to Haifa?

    You also deftly avoid the fact that international waters cannot be considered an “off limmits zone”. Had Israel waited until the ship had entered Gazas territorial waters thanteh blockade issue might have som weight. As it is they went in under cover of darknes because they did not want to wait for daylight and extra publicity.
    What they did cannot be considered piracy as the IDF are not a private actors (as in privateers) but state sponsored piracy is generaly considered an act of war.

    You mention 15, 000 tons of aid per day by Israel. Actually it is by NGOs not Israel and it’s strange that a place that Isrrael repeatedly denies has a hulanitarian crisis should need that. And even then the UN reckons that’s not even a quarter of what is needed.

  26. system if you dont mind me asking.What are the pay rates like in that job,do you get paid a flat rate or so much per post on websites similar to the fifty cent posters the Chinese goverment employs.Just curious to know how. the system works.Ahm no pun intended.


    This thread is NOT going to be derailed by TSW.

    He has adopted this site as his own personal mission to disrupt posts about Israel, and if he tries to do what he did on previous posts, he will be blocked. I don’t give a rat’s arse who complains about censorship. I’m as mad as hell about this thing, and the Israeli propaganda squads can go fuck themselves as far as I’m concerned. I’m not giving TSW any more platform than he has already had here.

  28. So you finally admit it, alternative points of view are verbotten? Presenting my views is now ‘disrupting’ the flow of opinions you want to hear more of?

    You’re getting scared.

  29. No they are not. But you have attempted to sabotage every thread about Israel by introducing irrelevancies and by repeating dishonest mantras in the hope of wearing down the opposition. It won’t happen this time. You have disrespected discussion on this site over and over again, and now it’s time to show you the same disrespect.

    I’d remind you that you were given a thread of your very own here. How’s that for alternative points of view being forbidden?

    Why do you use the German word instead of the English?

  30. ‘Why do you use the German word instead of the English?’

    I wanted to get back at you for all the Nazi analogies.

  31. What Nazi analogies?

    If you’re talking about my description of Gaza as a concentration camp, you’ll have to look back long before the Nazis. It is a concentration camp, but that is not a Nazi analogy. It’s simply a fact.

    So drop the self pity.

    Where exactly did you see me comparing the Israelis to Nazis? Be specific.

  32. You have said things like Israelis regard Palestinians as ‘Untermenschen’. Several times, I believe. I wanted to hit you back with it.

    I think the comparison was particularly perverse. It is only in Arab countries where those kind of Nazi theories have a mass following. In fact, while Moshe Dayan and Rabin fought Nazism (Dayan lost his eye in WWII) Haj Amin al-Husseini, the leader of the Palestinians, formed a Muslim SS division in the Balkans and murdered tens of thousands of Jews and Christians. Among Palestinians, he is still a hero. So who regards whom as untermensch?

  33. That’s self-evident. The way you and your fellow apologists spoke about the thousands of deaths in Gaza during your last attack on it made it perfectly plain that you have no respect for the life of a Palestinian.

    Here’s the exact quote, despairing that your people have learned nothing despite your experience of oppression:

    While Israel was assaulting Gaza and murdering civilians, I was beset by their apologists trying to shout me down, but when they bombed the UN compound the propagandists went abruptly silent.

    I don’t know about you, but I find their cynicism depressing. Clearly they regard the Palestinians as sub-human, untermenschen, just as another extremist ideology once regarded the Jews.

    It isn’t an analogy. It’s plain that the State of Israel cares nothing for the lives of Palestinians, any more than the Germans cared for the lives of Jews or Hamas, for that matter, cares for the lives of anyone.

    You have learned nothing from oppression. The abused goes on to become the abuser.

  34. TSW.

    You are defending the indefensible, and you are failing.

    The State of Israel excelled itself today. Tactics that are sadly all too familiar to the Palestinian population have been visited on the citizens of a friendly nation, and in international waters at that.

    This whole episode was totally unnecessary. Israel has the naval capabilities to physically block these ships from entering its coastal waters should it so choose, no violence required.

    The rhetoric and propoganda from Jerusalem is, predictably, the same old same old.

    I believe that something changed today. Israeli propoganda will now be recognised for what it is, hollow and self-serving. The state of Israel lost all credibility today.

    What a spectacular own goal. I can hear the Champagne corks popping in Hamas HQ from here.

  35. Someone who really believed in untermenschen, Palestine’s ‘Honorary Aryan’, the founder of Palestinian nationalism:

    Someone who fought Nazism, along with tens of thousands of Jews in Eretz Israel;


    ”That only applies to the untermenschen. The under-people, like Palestinians, designated by the Israelis as people deserving of oppression and murder, much like the Jews were treated in the Thirties and Forties.”

    ”Isn’t it appalling to think that Israel, of all countries, would define an Untermensch, the citizen of Gaza. Someone beneath contempt. Someone who can be killed and maimed without fear of condemnation?”

    ”Why don’t you go ahead and kill them all, Michael? Exterminate the untermenschen and let that be the final solution to your Palestininan problem.You know that’s what you want to do, and after all, they are sub-human, aren’t they?”

    ”Paulo — I stand over my use of the term Untermenschen. That is exactly how Israel views the Palestinians and how it treats them.”

    ”Clearly they regard the Palestinians as sub-human, untermenschen, just as another extremist ideology once regarded the Jews.”

    ”For all we know, the UN might well be a terrorist organisation too, and anyway, the food was only going to feed the Palestinian untermenschen, not humans.”

  36. Bold Pilot — Non-alcoholic champagne, obviously.

    There comes a time when even the most fervent cadre must question the morality of what they’ve been sent to defend.

    TSW — Did you notice where I said, ‘Isn’t it appalling to think that Israel, of all countries, would define an Untermensch” ?

    I think Israel ought to be better than that.

    Now get back on topic.

  37. Hamas know they already have the support of the ‘Free Gaza’ movement, even if its members don’t admit it and release occasional mealy-mouthed condemnations of Islamic fundamentalism. The ‘Free Gaza’ movement doesn’t wish to free Gaza from Islamic tyranny.

    Hamas knows the people in Ireland and Britain will swallow the propaganda of Al Guardian, the Brutish Broadcasting Corporation, RTE and the Irish Times, who represent the interests of Hamas, Iran and Venezuela, not the Irish or British people. Certainly not the Jewish people. They are mostly white. Arabs are brown. Ergo, the Jews are in the wrong. Thats what we were taught at university.

  38. A day of peace? Sometimes fighting anger and violence with anger and violence only begets more of it

  39. Ah, so it’s all a media-led conspiracy, made possible by the ignorant BogPaddies and the SunReaderBrits.

    I’ve got it now.

  40. “Hamas knows the people in Ireland and Britain will swallow the propaganda of Al Guardian, the Brutish Broadcasting Corporation, RTE and the Irish Times, who represent the interests of Hamas, Iran and Venezuela, not the Irish or British people. ” Does RTE really represent the interests of Hamas?! Jeez everyone is against the poor Jews.

  41. TSW
    Here’s a question for you.

    In your own opinion, regardless of the motives of the flottilla, did the Israeli government act is the best possible interest of the Israeli people by okaying this ‘intervention’?
    Is the outcome what the Israeli people want in a general sense, I’m mean, If you were top man in Jerusalem is this how you would have handled it or do you think a greater degree of subtlty could have been used?

    I’m sorry you went to a really shit university by the way.

  42. There was a large turnout at the march in Dublin. Incredible in fact given hours notice.

  43. Wow…. Such outrage…. Whilst my sympathies lie with anyone injured or dead on any side, of any conflict, anywhere. I don’t see people marching to the Dail because Lenihan announced pouring another 2 billion, and another possible 10 billion, into Anglo today, thereby fucking your grandchildren even further, and destroying our country completely. Oh, let`s not forget the social welfare recipients being fucked again, in the next budget. That will have far reaching effects on our society and crime rates, which we should be concentrating on.

    Leave International conflicts to those who wish to indulge in them. Channel your rage into rectifying our own fucked up system and country. Leave Israel and Palestine to those most qualified to comment on them, the people who live there.

    I don`t see any mention of the 10 000 missiles that were sent into Israel over a year and a half. Before any of the self righteous start throwing a little tantrum….. How much money have you sent to Gaza and the people there? Why don’t you get on a boat sending aid to Gaza or go and carry shit pots around a hospital there? It is always easy to pontificate and comment from a distance and indulge your self righteousness from a distance.

    Let`s get our own country right first before you poke your noses into others affairs.

  44. Did you hear the Israeli ambassador stand in on the last word today who said the commandos were bombarded with grenades, when under scrutiny she backed down and said “well, I thought initially they were, I read it on the internet”…. bla bla bla, you thick unprepared twat who showed up the “poor us” propaganda horseshit for what it is.

  45. Stay on topic ?

    Ok. What are house wife`s with their kids in prams going on little marches in Dublin and Limerick, and bumper stickers on some guy`s car in Ballynowhere going to change, what centuries of Egyptians, Romans, Crusaders and other Muslim forces could not? You can rage and rant all year long here about Israel and Palestine, and you won`t accomplish anything that the greatest armies in the world could not.
    Sure, it gives the self righteous a platform to vent without actually doing something, as usual.

    My question still remains and that is staying “on topic”. How many of the self righteous are going to Gaza to carry shit pots in hospitals or clean up vomit and blood off their hospital corridors. Hey, let`s step it down one, because that might be just a bit too much to take, and take you way too far out of your comfort zone behind your pc`s.
    How many have donated substantial amounts of their net wealth to ease the suffering of those poor innocents in Gaza?

    If you are all going to spout out utterances about something you do not know anything about, and are merely having a knee jerk reaction to some news report, or YouTube video, then put your money where your mouths are.

    Forget about stupid marches, gathering in pubs to show “solidarity”, bumper stickers, and everything else to make yourselves feel good about “doing something”. Donate money, collect money, collect food, collect clothes, collect medicines etc… or shut the fuck up.

    Fucking marches, day of mourning, and bumper stickers. Grow up…….

  46. Down and out,,,,,some of your countrymen were involved , wouldnt it be nice to think they could expect not to be attacked in international waters by a countries soldiers, who sometimes use the same passports,
    Protesting will likely have little effect, whether about our problems or their problems.but not protesting, implies you are not bothered.
    I have a right to be bothered by this, as I have a right to be bothered by local problems.

  47. Down and out — None of that rant has anything to do with the attack on the ship. Stop shouting at people and stay on topic.

  48. and what should we do with all the collected clothes food and medicines,?????????????????????

  49. I reckon there’s gaggles of people waiting around all day in warehouses, contracted to go on marches. When something beastly happens in the World. something beastly that tickles the erogenous zone of the left only please, an electronic one or two word signal is send to the warehouse from selective moral condemnation central and they pour forth onto the street, bug eyed with indignation. The words Israel” George Bush – they still go on anti Bush marches just for old times sake – Sarah Palin, Thierry Henry etc etc are clear favourites. On the street, they listen to a few speeches and punch the air before they get bussed back to the warehouse. I think they get paid a fiver an hour on weekdays and time and a half at the weekend. You get a bonus if you manage to get the words Binyamin Netanyahu to rhymn with something. How about:

    Your a Jew
    Down with You,
    And er, boo hoo hoo

    Meantime, the London Times reports today that three Israeli nuclear subs are in the Persian Gulf. One will remain there permanently. According to the report, its weapons are trained on Iran in general and Teheran in particular. Its commander has the authority to unleash hell.Last week Obama sanctioned reconnaissance flights over Iran. Some reckon this paves the way for Teheran to get wacked, the Big Bang as Willie Casey might put it.

  50. It seems that Tel Aviv have similar warehouses, SO.

    Notice how they are staffed by, amongst others, such left-wing anarchist groups as Peace Now. What an affrontery to decent civilised non-leftists. Also, note the mention of a counter-protest by “Kahanists”. Those would be disciples of Meir Kahane. You may remember that our buddy TSW dismissed the influence of Kahane (and his ilk) as a figment of my fevered imagination on an earlier thread.

  51. Everyone has a warehouse these days BP – maybe we’d be all be better off in Dolan’s Warehouse.

  52. @ Bock 52- Battling to work that one out……

    @Inco 53- Work it out….. Aint that difficult if you are really interested in helping anyone. Go to their embassy and hand over your pay packet if it`s too difficult to arrange other aid.

    Like the marches did so much against the Yanks using Shannon as an air base? Do you really think marches and bumper stickers are going to accomplish anything? The rest of the world could not give a rat shit about what we do here.
    If you are going to do something at least try to make it count, as per my previous suggestions. Again,,,, anyone going to donate any real portion of their net wealth to the poor innocents of that conflict?
    Or actually do something real instead of shiteing on about it, or paying lip service, by going to “march” for 30 minutes…

    Oh, and Bock, that is the topic. Helping the innocents, not serving the self righteous in their indignation, which will only last about ooooooooh, saaaaaaay, 48hrs..

  53. Down and out – Please don’t tell me what the topics are on this site.

    The topic is the Israeli attack on the flotilla, not the motivations of people who condemn it.


  54. BoldPilot: That article says they managed to get 20 Kahanists together for the rally. The man won a single seat in the Knesset around thirty years ago, and Israel’s enemies still scream and shout about him: ‘look at Kahane! You have extremists too!’

    C’est: I wont fully know what I would have done until all the facts come out. Some things are for certain. The IDF made the error in thinking the passengers were indeed genuine political or ‘human rights’ activists seeking to make a political statement, but would shirk at violence. I’ve gotten to know the kinds of people who make up these organisations due to the depressing fact I live in the Diaspora, and have lived in Al Quds on the Liffey (Dublin). Heck, these people were not even the Trotskyites of the SWP or the IAWM. These were people from an organisation their own country say is linked with Al Qaeda. This was the ‘Green’ side of the ‘Red-Green’ Alliance. More people were hurt and killed than should have been, tragically many among our own boys.

    The logistical problems were mainly thus:

    1. Too few troops got on the boat, with weapons unsuitable (paintball guns!) for the crowd they were dealing with.

    2. Also, much of the mob was on the top deck, who had a vantage in attacking the soldiers getting aboard. Tear gas, smoke bombs or both should have been used to get the soldiers on and surrounded by a screen.

    3. Dropping down one man at a time was ridiculous. The single guys dropped were easily overpowered by a mob of, what, thirty people. The mob could take their sidearms, which the soldiers were told not to use, before they could even put their feet on deck. Leaving the men in question with freaking paintball guns and non-lethal weapons. With pistols in the crowd.

    The problem is evident on this video:

    A soldier gets dropped down, beaten up, passed along to be thrown over the deck, while there are people ready for the next soldier.

  55. D&O

    I have read with interest your contributions to various threads on BTR. You have often raised a thought provoking viewpoint, and I find your negativity on this one somewhat incongruous.

    I have a few questions for you, if you don’t mind.

    Do you have a particular insight to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?
    Are you intimating that we (conrtibutors to BTR) are unqualified to offer opinion on that conflict?
    In what way do our domestic difficulties disbar us from holding opinions on world affiairs, in your wiew?

  56. TSW — None of this is verified by independent information. Are you a spokesman for the IDF? If not, before you’re finally cut off, state exactly where this information comes from.

  57. Well, it’s a fact that the IHH ship was singled out. And it’s a fact that IHH are designated terrorist supporters by France and Denmark among others. And it’s a fact that Egypt offered to offload and transfer the aid via its port so as to assuage the feelings ( strong) of the people on board the IHH ship. So why 9(?) people had to die I don’t know.

  58. TSW

    I’m tiring of arguing with you, I really am.

    For the benefit of other BTR readers, I’d just like to point out one section of your post above (#60) where you make an implied slight on Dublin “and have lived in Al Quds on the Liffey (Dublin)”, even though I am a Limerick man, and have no particular grá for Dublin.

    Al Qaeda
    Al Hussein
    Al Jazeera
    Al Quds

    All of the above have, by default, become buzzwords associated with Islamic extremism, due in no small part to the infantile mentality of the likes of Fox news et al.

    If you, who claim to have such a deep insight into the politics of the Middle East had even a rudimentary understanding of the Arabic langauge, you would know that Al Quds (phonetically) means the city of Jerusalem.

    No more, and no less.

    I will not argue with a fool.

    You qualify.

  59. The veteran Israeli journalist Ron Ben Yishai recounts problems 1. and 2. here:,7340,L-3896796,00.html

    Looking at several videos of the incident, from all angles, it just struck me as something I would never have done if I were in charge. A guy sliding down on a rope could be grabbed and beaten before he gets his hands off the wire in that kind of crowd. Especially dangerous when you have a lethal sidearm. Look at the videos like the one I showed yourself. It strikes me as common sense, and my military experience is pretty limited. It tells me they simply weren’t prepared, and didn’t know what to expect on the boat. Amateur. Someone should be fired over that. They were trying to play gentle with scum.

  60. Where did you get the information that the soldiers were armed with paintball guns? Where did you get the information that one of your boys was thrown off the deck?

    Name your source.

    It isn’t the passengers or crew, so who does that leave?

  61. BoldPilot: Of course I know what Al Quds means. I love Yerushalayim. Its the most special place in the world to me.

    I don’t think it was Fox that made Al Qaeda synonymous with Islamic fundamentalism.

    I was pointing out the strong anti-Israel sentiment in Dublin. The Israelis were not prepared for the likes of these groups.

  62. What are your sources for the things you say happened on the ship? To prevent your previous abuses of this site, all your future comments will be held in moderation until you answer this question.

  63. D and O,,,,I don’t have a pay packet.
    Now could you answer the question as to how to get the collected clothes food medicines, etc., to where its needed, or maybe you should be the one to, “shut the fuck up”.

  64. Always threatening to cut people off who don’t kow-tow to your particular line. Yes it’s your ball and you’ll take it home if we don’t play by your rules, but do you not realise what a one trick pony you’ve become?

  65. Paulo — I’ll run this site in the best way I can to keep a meaningful dialogue going. I won’t have it taken over by propagandists, and if you don’t like that you can stick with your original threat and not come back. Isn’t that what you said you’d do?

    I’m not too interested in bullshit, so either get involved in the discussion or not, but don’t try to make this about me. I’m not interested in indulging you.

    This thread is about the atttack on the Gaza convoy. Do you have something to say about that subject or do you not?

  66. lapesdmethodist: Israel also offered to bring the aid over land if the ships docked in Ashdod, many times:

    Nobody had to die or get hurt here. The boats were intent on arrogantly giving the finger to Israel by refusing to respect the blockade, the coordinates of which were known by the crew. Now several people are dead.

    Bock: You obviously aren’t looking at the article or the video I posted. I’ve gotten in touch with a friend of mine in the IDF and another in the Jerusalem mayor’s office. The latter knows nothing, as I expected. I’m waiting to get put in touch with someone from the navy.

  67. You stated certain things as fact. Where did those claims originate? It was either the IDF or the ship’s passengers, and since there’s an embargo on them, it must be the IDF.

    That makes you a spokesman for the IDF, unless there’s a third source.

    Is there a third source or are you an IDF spokesman?

  68. Bock it seems that Israel are not content with killing innocents. They now wish to take control of your site and dictate what may or may not be written. Typical of their arrogance and impertinence. “four legs good two legs bad” . Even your big buddy America risks what is left of their reputation by backing Israel. Your “boys” fucked up , as a result you are seen as the pariah state you are.

  69. I did indeed but you keep dragging me back with your mindless onesided attacks on Israel. In the current affair I haven’t read one substantiated account of what happened but you apparently have. Sources please.

  70. The arrogance of power and anger at that arrogance – that’s what the article and many comments on the article have been about. Everything off topic has been pillowfighting in the darkness of a boys’ dormitory.

  71. Paulo — On the contrary, I’m referring only to what is in the public domain. A ship was boarded by commandos in international waters and people were killed. If you point out the statements in my post that were inaccurate I’ll be happy to correct them.

    You might be confusing me with the people here who seem to have first-hand accounts of what happened on board. Unfortunately, I still haven’t been able to establish their sources.

    And incidentally, in this case, all the attacking seems to have been done by Israel.

  72. I don’t know if IHH is illegal in France or Denmark. European countries rarely declare organisations to be illegal but their intelligence assesments are usually fairly accurate. And lead to organisations being monitored usually.

  73. Here are two quotes from Ariel Sharon which give an insight into the Israeli mentality….A lie should be tried in a place where it will attract the attention of the world …..Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the state of Israel on trial.

  74. I ask the question because you said it’s a fact that IHH are designated terrorist supporters by France and Denmark.

    The criticism you quote is from a report by a 26-year-old American researcher in a paper he wrote for a Danish think-tank. I don’t believe the Institute for International Studies speaks on behalf of the Danish government and I haven’t seen any reference to France’s declaration that the IHH is a terrorist supporter. In fact, I haven’t seen a coherent definition of a terrorist.

    Where is it recorded that the French and Danish governments accused the IHH of supporting terrorism?

  75. tsw tells us “I wont fully know what I would have done until all the facts come out. Some things are for certain. The IDF made the error in thinking the passengers were indeed genuine political or ‘human rights’ activists seeking to make a political statement, but would shirk at violence” On The Frontline we had Israel’s deputy Ambassador to Ireland telling us that it was clear from messages intercepted from the ship that the people onboard had another, more violent, agenda. The whole thing is an insult to the intelligence of a goat but you’d think they’d even try to co-ordinate their propoganda.

  76. The woman from the Israeli embassy, to quote her precisely, told us that the passengers had sophisticated weapons, like knives.

  77. The object of terrorism is to terrorise. M. Collins. And if you think that the IHH is some kind of cuddly thing your moral compass is swinging around wildly. My point was that five ships weren’t boarded or attacked. And that the killing wasn’t premeditated or it would have been more, shall we say, efficient.

  78. They could have disabled the ship and towed it to port.


    They are the IDF.


    They have that capability.


    They choose to kill 20 people.


    The IDF don’t give a shit.


    You’re next.


  79. Lapsedmethodist — None of us are cuddly. Can you please substantiate what you stated as fact and produce the reference to where France and Denmark said IHH supports terrorism? Thanks.

    Your opinion is not in accord with the Israeli position. They state that their military personnel expected little trouble when boarding the ship.

  80. Bock…re. knives = sophisticated weapons…hilarious. Funnier again when she threw a hissy because Kenny and the audience laughed

  81. I meant their intel organisations. And if the paper is correct, and it gives examples of IHH behaviour, then they-IHH- are credited with terrorist links.
    What is it with the Irish and iffy organisations in the Middle East ? Is there something I don’t get ?

  82. Isreal becomes the enemy of the world. No?

    Isreal nukes Iran. No?

    America is not responsible. No?

    America rides in on a white horse. No?

    Isreal makes peace and joins NATO. No?

    GAZA becomes the property of Isreal. No?

  83. Lapsed Methodist — That paper was written by an individual just out of college with an agenda largely to do with establishing himself as an authority on terrorism. I don’t want to make this discussion about him, and therefore I’ll refrain from going into more detail here. However, his paper is only a thing written for a think-tank. It does not represent official Danish policy.

    As regards quoting shadowy intelligence groups, well, anyone can throw that kind of mud because none of it is atttributable. I can accuse you of as much nonsense as you can pin on me as long as we both refer to unspecified “intel”.

    It’s shit.

    Since we’re talking about verifiable deaths here, let’s quote verifiable facts or none at all. I don’t like this nod-and-wink stuff.

  84. Members of the UN Security Council condemns Israel’s attack on ships convoy with humanitarian aid to Palestinians in Gaza. They also urge Israel to end its blockade of the Gaza Strip.
    A resolution is being drafted.

    Source: UN Security Council.

  85. The UN Security Council are obviously naive dupes of the international Islamic conspiracy to do generally bad stuff, and shit.

  86. Convoluted Israeli justification for what seems to be an indefensible act. Doesn’t matter who was on the ship, or their political leanings, they hadn’t committed an offence and were in International waters.

    If someone breaks into my house i am allowed to use reasonable force to protect myself. Israeli forces were the tresspassers here and they killed people in the process.

    In any other jurisdiction it would be clear who committed the crime. Why some people try and defend what’s happened in this case is beyond me.

  87. I didn’t nod or wink anything. The Israelis obviously believe that anyone they deem to have terrorist links – in this case IHH – worthy of special treatment. Whether you or I would believe the IHH to be hooked up with terrorists isn’t the point. We’re not the players here.

  88. Sorry now, but I wasn’t the one quoting “intel” organisations. That would have been you.

    If you have no attributable sources for claiming that IHH has terrorist connections then you have no sources at all.

    By the way, when TSW addresses the question I put to him at 74, his next comment will go up. This is an unfortunate situation forced on me by his habit of ignoring inconvenient issues in previous discussions. I presume it’s a standard technique to disrupt discussion of Israeli matters but after a year and a half of this nonsense, I’m not having any more of it.

  89. Bock (95) you have a point there. Not even good old GWB trusted the UN Security Council.

  90. Your attitude towards me is funny, Bock.

    I mean, Pope blurted out that the allegation people on board stole sidearms is ‘a classic “empty the magazine then put it in the other fellas hand” routine’.

    What are the specific things you want to know about the ship and my claims?

  91. re TSW, in number 73, he suggested that those nice, people in Israel (the same lovely people who were blockading Gaza), could actually deliver the cargo for the nasty humanitarians over land from Ashdod,,, but the nasty Humanitarians were waving loaded upright fingers around and caused everyone to get shot.
    Bock, it is late, I would think TSW is back in Dreamland

  92. Lapsed Methodist — Iffy, you say.

    As in faking Irish passports and assassinating people in other countries?

    As iffy as that?

    As iffy as dropping white phosphorus on civilians?

    As iffy as blockading starving people in a ghetto?

    Surely not.

  93. TSW — My question to you is very simple. You stated as fact that certain things happened on board the ship. What is the source for the events that you state as fact? It’s either the IDF or the ship’s company.

    Which is it?

  94. Some of my information came from Ehud Barak’s interviews, and Eli Marom, the Chinese-Israeli commander of the navy. Some came from Ron Ben Yishai. The rest came from my viewing of a couple of videos of the incident.

  95. I see. Some of your information came from the boss of the people who did the killing, and some came from a journalist who wasn’t there.

    Hard to argue with any of that.

  96. He’s a journalist with a boatload of contacts within the military and intelligence service, and happens to be a defense expert, but OK we’ll dismiss him just like the intelligence agencies of several EU states.

  97. Very well. It’s up to you.

    If you insist, we’ll take it that all your information came from the people who did the killing.

  98. Those who wish to explore the political and cultural background that made murder, piracy and kidnapping in international waters seem necessary and normal to the Israeli government (and indeed a majority of Jewish Israeli citizens) could do worse than read this New York Review of Books article on the dramatic shift towards rightwing anti-Arab racism within Israel and the US groups supporting the Zionist project.

    It’s long but illuminating, and details how liberal democracy in Israel is dying out. I can’t resist repeating a quotation from one of the members of the first Knesset in 1948, Pinchas Lavon, who declared “and we shall be called upon to provide an example and prove how Jews live with a minority.” Things have come a long way for the worse since this vision of secular inclusiveness.

    It will also help some readers in understanding the mind-set of our friend TSW, and why that differs so dramatically from majority opinion in Europe on these matters.

    But then the NYRB is well known as a home to antisemites and self-hating Jews.

  99. Whataboutery ! I said that someone – a French judge – a French anti-terrorist judge – had designated the IHH as having links to terrorism. Hence the IHH being designated a terrorist grouping by Israel and their ship, among all the ships, being singled out for boarding/attack. To estrapolate from that that I support dropping white phosphorous on children is a hell of a stretch. I believe the IHH statements about being solely concerned with the walfare of Gazans in the same way as I regard statements from the Orange Order that they believe in civil and religious liberty for all, that is to say with a very large pinch of salt. Mentioning Israel doesn’t bring out the best in people… I ‘ve just responded to a poster on another site who was blathering about white flashes over Jerusalem ! Even Mairead Corrigan who in her Belfast days was scrupulous in avoiding the blame game was ranting on Pat Kenny today. These two Middle East groupings are locked in a danse macabre and why should I be providing the music?

  100. Ah Bock, me auld ship mate. Do ye see the way yer letten the pro israel puppets move the story off its central issue, which is “the murder of unarmed people on a non military ship in international waters”
    Dat there would be an auld pirate trick Bock. Muddy the auld waters and bring in a lot of smoke and mirrors. Helped many a pirate off the hook in the past!

    Well shiver me timbers me auld harty TSW. did ye find much bounty on dat der ship???

  101. That has always been TSW’s technique, but at least he now admits that he’s nothing more than a mouthpiece for the IDF, and is therefore without credibility.

  102. People here complain that because I present Israel’s case. Which means I am without credibility, just like every judge, terrorism expert and intelligence report that disagrees with Bock and his favorite journalist, Robert Fisk, who has been praised as an ‘objective source’ – by Osama bin Laden. Allow me to offer a counter-complaint: most of the other commenters here are unapologetic Communists and mouthpieces for Israel and America’s enemies, and have about as much credibility as Lord Haw H… I mean, Robert Fisk.

    Bock, if you don’t like me defending Israel, just ban me now.

  103. If you make statements about things that happened on the ship, claiming them as fact, and these statements turn out to be based solely on the word of the Israeli military, you are by definition nothing more than a mouthpiece.

  104. System does not give a rats fart what happened on the ship.He is only following his work manual and earning his shekels.If the Israelis raped all the women on board System would be here claiming they were all nympho manics who begged for it !!.And seduced the poor soldiers

  105. @tsw post 60. Diaspora, isnt that some Italian scooter, Mary Robinson always raved on and on about her’s. And Bock, you can drop white prostitutes on me anytime……….Now where did I leave my reading glasses……..

  106. No. 8: ‘As long as Washington panders to the Jewish vote and its wealth you will always have injustice in the middle east.’

    Pope: ‘It will also help some readers in understanding the mind-set of our friend TSW, and why that differs so dramatically from majority opinion in Europe on these matters.’

    You guys must be glad Europe killed all its kikes. Doesn’t have to deal with any Jewish opinions.

  107. Don’t even think of going down the tired old Holocaust road. It doesn’t work here. Fair warning now: that sort of bullshit accusation will be removed.

  108. Just informing them both why they enjoy the benefits of a continent that doesn’t have a large ‘Jewish vote’.

  109. You’re not informing anyone. You’re smearing the integrity of people who disagree with you.

    That line of discussion is now finished.

  110. @ TSW post 17:

    I agree with you TSW on your previous comments. Perhaps if all the knee jerk reactions would stop and think about the global geopolitical situation, there would be a more measured approach. They know nothing about Palestine or Israel. Neither do I, but at least I confine my comments to something I do know about, namely insane government spending, which pertains to us here at home.

    What? No one looked at this you tube clip?? TSW is providing legitimate evidence that the ships were requested to dock safely, and the humanitarian aid would be delivered, as per the Israeli spokesman on RTE, guaranteeing safe passage on RTE, I can`t recall his name… Thin blond spokesman.

    Who here has sent 10% of their wealth to Gaza? I think only those who have, should comment further, or shut it.

    I did. I sent 10% of my net wealth to ease the suffering of the innocents, which is not much, so I feel able to comment. Until you do the same, keep quite, as per my previous comments…

  111. Two things.

    1. Israel had no authority to stop or board the ships.

    2. It is not your place to tell other commenters to be quiet.

  112. I’ll add one, Bock, if I may

    “They know nothing about Palestine or Israel.”

    3. You have no idea what commenters here know about Israel or Palestine. To assume otherwise displays extreme arrogance on your part.

    I note that you haven’t answered my questions in post # 61

    You don’t have to answer, of course.

  113. Not my place Bock?
    Bit reminiscent of the Brit occupation I`d say old chap. What, what? Say what old boy?
    Oh, so those who pontificate without doing anything whatsoever, can do so without question? But those who do can`t?
    Yeah, right Bock. I`d say when you donate 10% of your net wealth you will be in a position to say who can and can`t say what, say what old boy?

  114. When you set up your own site, you can run it any way you like, but you will not tell other commenters here what to talk about. Show some respect.

  115. @ boldpilot + 61
    If someone could display one objective opinion backed up by fact, I might take your comment seriously.

  116. If you refer to your comment about marches on the Dáil, it’s irrelevant and it’s not going up. Stick to the subject.

  117. By the way Bock. It is not me telling people what to do, but rather a challenge, in short form, in case you did not recognise it. Donate 10% of your wealth to Palestine or don`t have a self righteous opinion on something you are not prepared to put your money, where your mouth is.

  118. If I was devoting my money to any cause, I wouldn’t be shouting about it, nor would I expect to be questioned about it.

    This discussion, in case you missed it, is about the facts of what happened, not about people’s qualifications to hold opinions.

  119. Of course marching on the Dail is relevant. People here spend all their time on political situations they know nothing about but at home we are dying. How is that not relevant?

  120. If we found the facts that would be very, very good. I`m not shouting about anything. Merely asking those who are, with big mouths, and big opinions, to put their money for once, where those mouths are, instead of shiteing on with no commitment, as usual.

  121. Bock: ‘Israel had no authority to stop or board the ships.’

    A country does have certain rights to interfere with a vessel on the high seas. It may be that the Israelis felt it was justified because the ship declared its intent to enter the blockaded zone, and they decided to preempt and prevent an illegal action.

  122. Feeling justified isn’t enough. That’s what children do.

    They had no right to behave as they did.

    Don’t ask me though. Ask such Lefties as the UN security council, Kofi Annan, Desmond Tutu, Nelson Mandela, Martti Ahtisaari or Mary Robinson.

  123. D and O,,,you conveniently ignored number 70 above
    And you coveniently assume that 10 % is the appropriate figure to donate to allow you to pontificate to every one else.
    You are one stingy fucker,,,why not 25%,,,,or even 50,,,,,
    You have one of the biggest mouths here and it does spout some atrocious shite

    Apologies Bock if this reignites that moronic argument, delete if needs be, but I find his twisted viewpoint extremely hard to ignore

  124. Chemist: Maritime blockade is a legitimate tool under international law, in accordance with certain regulations.

  125. TSW — What regulations are they?

    Inco — Well, D&O can probably expect that sort of response. After all he did say this:

    collect food, collect clothes, collect medicines etc… or shut the fuck up.

    You are correct in saying that he didn’t explain how these items were to be delivered and he also seems to have overlooked the information you gave regarding your income.

  126. Still, in my opinion the underlying issue which was to blame for all the logistical problems of the ship’s seizure was that the IDF did not realise people like these would match words with action:

    Very good coverage of the whole affair on Newsnight this evening. You can probably see it on BBC iPlayer or something, its worth a watch.

  127. You didn’t answer my question. What regulations?

    If armed pirates stormed my ship, I’d bash them with a club or try to stab them as well. So would you, and so did the Jewish passengers on the Exodus in 1947.

    I’m surprised the gunmen didn’t expect violence considering your earlier comment linking the ship with al Qaida.:

    That ship, the Mavi Marmara, was singled out for searching because it was sponsored by IHH, an Islamist charity with extremely dodgy ties. In fact, IHH who were on the ship, and responsible for this fiasco, has been identified by Turkish authorities as in contact with Al Qaida, and involved in sending Jihadi fighters to Afghanistan and Chechnya.

    al Qaida, you say?

  128. Updates on the soldiers:

    The boy thrown off the deck is a First Sergeant and seriously fractured his skull. Doctors have called his speedy recovery a near miracle, and they believe he will be able to go home soon.

    Another First Sergeant was hit by a bullet in the abdomen. The bullet went right through his stomach.

    A Lieutenant claims he was shot the moment he landed, and several men then proceeded to beat him with metal rods. Another man attacked him with a knife before he lost consciousness and woke up in treatment.

  129. Bock: I don’t know all the requirements. I mentioned the grant of ‘due notice’, which Israel has fulfilled. The armed forces of many countries actually have procedures laid out in writing for this sort of thing. What is for certain is that under international maritime law, when a maritime blockade is in effect, no vessels can enter the blockaded area. That includes civilian and enemy vessels. Any ships that violate OR ATTEMPT to violate the maritime blockade may be captured or even attacked.

    Whats the situation with the two Koreas? I imagine South Korea and the USA have some sort of blockade going?

  130. If you don’t know the requirements, don’t state them as fact. Internal Israeli regulations are as relevant to the international community as Canon Law or the rules of a golf club.

  131. Are you going to allow my post on the condition of some of the soldiers?

  132. Yes I am, since you got around to answering the question.

    What is your source for the information?

  133. Regarding maritime blockades, you are distorting reality when you say as follows:

    under international maritime law, when a maritime blockade is in effect, no vessels can enter the blockaded area. That includes civilian and enemy vessels. Any ships that violate OR ATTEMPT to violate the maritime blockade may be captured or even attacked.

    In fact, maritime law forbids blockades if

    the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade.

    I think starving the people of Gaza counts as excessive. Note the phrase “direct and concrete military advantage” and in particular the word “military”.

    Israel’s actions are clearly illegal and Israel knows it. Hence all the huffing and puffing.

  134. TSW, you’ve not expressed one iota of remorse for the loss of lives of those humanitarians on board the ship.
    All you care about is your beliefs and you’re putting those above that of innocent lives.
    The facts are the Israels had no authority to board that ship. The way they did so was ridiculous and unprofessional to say the least.
    The blockade of Gaza is illegal and it is inhumane of Israel authorities blocking aid from getting through.
    Your Country will be the cause of world war 3 and you are contributing to it in your own little way. Stop putting beliefs/religion/ideas above human life.

  135. Bock: Regarding maritime blockades, we’ll have to wait until you and I can argue before a judge, I guess.

    Though I agree, the blockade on consumer goods should end.

  136. That didn’t stop you stating it as fact here, did it? If you keep stating things as fact, you can expect to be challenged on those statements.

    Tomorrow, the IDF will probably attack the Rachel Corrie, which is carrying nothing but relief supplies.

    What is the reason for banning fishing nets, irrigation systems and agricultural spare parts except to increase hardship on the local population?

  137. The thing is, Israel wasn’t actually blocking the aid from entering, only the manner in which it was being brought in.

    Maybe D & O and others like him donated supplies to those boats. Maybe he and others just wanted to see the goods enter Gaza, and would have been happy to obey the local laws and bring them through a land crossing, rather than jeopardize the whole thing by making a political statement.

  138. That isn’t the thing.

    The thing is that the economic blockade is illegal and Israel had no right to use armed force.

    It’s designed to get at Hamas by terrorising and demoralising the civilian population.

  139. However, lets just hypothetically say that Israel does get the blockade totally in line with international law, and the ICJ or some other body endorses its approach, whether it has to change significantly from what it does now or not.

    Ships coming into the area would still most definitely have to be searched, and their contents probably brought over land after being checked by Israel, right?

  140. Bock: ”That isn’t the thing.”

    I was replying to FME when she said Israel wasn’t letting the aid through. I corrected her by saying the aid was allowed to get through, but by land and not sea.

  141. The economic blockade is at the heart of this. There would be no flotillas if Israel permitted basic essential supplies to reach the people of Gaza in adequate quantities.

    What Israel has achieved by all of this is a further erosion in its support base internationally.

    Did you know that international law forbids the forcible boarding of a ship in international waters? It is a crime to seize a vessel on the high seas, as happened in this instance. It’s also a crime to injure or kill anyone while doing so. This law was introduced after an American Jew was murdered by Palestinians who boarded the Achille Lauro in 1985.

  142. Leon Klinghoffer, shot and thrown from his wheelchair.

    On the law, as I said, we will have to see. Every law is open to contention. Israel may be compelled by the ICJ to alter the conditions of the blockade, but I can’t imagine a flotilla full of people like IHH members being let in unchecked whatever the circumstances.

  143. TSW.. what about remorse for the loss of lives of those humanitarians on board the ship. You didn’t respond to that part?
    Where you say “lets just hypothetically say that Israel does get the blockade totally in line with international law”.. that’s not going to happen.. unless of course you think baggering people into viewing all Palestinians the way you do will work.

    Or unless you become a judge for the ICJ..

  144. TSW, AFAIK Israel does not recognise the ICJ, so it’s a non-runner.

    I’ve just been watching firsthand accounts from the Swedes that were onboard, as well as official photos of the “weapons” that Israel claims were used against their murdering commandos.
    According to the Swedes (1 MP, 1 very well respected author), there were no weapons used by people on the flotilla. The Israelis started shooting already before descending on the ship. The Israeli soldier with a gunshot wound was, as far as they could tell, hit by “friendly fire” from Israeli guns.

    Regarding official photos of the weapons on the flotilla ship, it looked like most kitchen drawers in Ireland.

  145. Be assured I regret the loss of life, which is why I have been going over what went wrong with the mission for some time, offering constructive criticism and recommending Eli Marom (known to frequent the Tel Aviv strip clubs, btw) be held accountable for making this a police-style action and not a military one. I may not like those people on the boats, but our boys should do whatever it takes to avoid casualties. Despite Peter Beinart’s scare-mongering about Orthodox Jews, we do have the principle of pikuach nefesh.

    The ICJ itself is a joke, though. Politics matters more there than the law. Judges side with their home countries over 90% of the time in deciding cases. Judges from wealthy nations rule in favour of wealthy nations, and those from developing countries do the opposite. Its pretty blatant.

  146. TSW also ignores the last part of FMEs 150 post.
    It would be one way of getting Ireland over its current troubles.
    Nothing like a good old WW3, to focus the minds

  147. Israel claims to have ammassed solid evidence that the occupants of the Mavi Marmara were in possession of weapons and other effects destined to promote Hamas in Gaza.
    Why then for the first time in Israeli history, have they released all of the occupants of the Ship ? Israel is not known for releasing people from custody , people who are a “threat ” to the safety of the Israeli people….
    The blockade at sea, whereas illegal falls around the stools of ” Belligerant Blockade ” Further indication of the usual manipulation etc etc.
    Very very little foreign aid has reached Gaza since the cessation of Cast Lead, It is in plain sight on the Israeli side of the border crossings, Since the settlers were forced to leave in 2005, The stranglehold on basic need for Palestinians has tightened daily.
    The only hope for aid to reach Gaza is through direct access via Sea, The flotilla was fully anticipating a search by the IDF which was why they did not attempt entry into Israeli waters during darkness, What they had not anticipated though was a savage massacre under cover of darkness in International waters, 48 miles plus outside Israeli waters, Where no blockade, belligerant, illegal or other was in effect.
    This massacre will never be forgotton or overlooked , FME has rightly pointed out, this could well be a tipping point.

  148. Bock
    How’s about a Gig for Gaza! We as ordinary people need to keep this issue top of the agenda.
    Would do it in a flash if requested. Found something very interesting and quite refreshing on the net last night. A demonstration in New York which included a big presence of Orthodox Jews chanting and carrying “Palestine National Flags” and “Free Gaza “Posters. Apparently one opinion in Orthodox Judaism is that the policies of the State of Israel are causing great division between Arab and Jew, who for thousands of years (according to this group) had been living side by side as good neighbours. Interesting point of view, I thought.

  149. LJS: That movement of Haredi Judaism is an extremist fringe sect known as Naturei Karta. They have about 5,000 members around the world, and about a hundred or so guys who actively campaign against the State of Israel in America and Britain. They gained notoriety for showing up to Ahmadinijad’s Holocaust-denial conference (see Bill Maher’s film ‘Religlous’). They traditionally associate with a larger group of anti-Zionist Hasidim known as Satmar, the most isolated of all Hasidic dynasties (even from other Jews), whose deceased Rebbe Joel Teitelbaum started the anti-Zionist movement within the Haredi sector. However, Satmar has grown more wary of NK for befriending folks like the Ayatollah and they have been forbidden from using their synagogues and facilities in some places. Many Jewish authorities have considered issuing a form of excommunication for Naturei Karta, which would be the first of its kind in a very long time.

    I don’t usually call myself a Zionist. Recently, I’ve come to the conclusion that the central tenets of Zionism were already to be found within Judaism, and a separate movement, especially a secular one detached from Judaism, is unnecessary (although to be fair it was people like Ben Gurion who brought the re-establishment of Jewish sovereignty about, who took action and rejected a prevailing ‘wait and see’ attitude in the Jewish community).

    I visited the Samaritan synagogue near Holon in 2008. Their beliefs and practice offer a great insight into what pre-Exilic Judaism looked like. They hold, for instance, that a Samaritan loses their Israelite identity if he or she leaves the historic land of Israel. It might seem today like the most ideologically pure form of Zionism, but to them, thats just what their Torah obligates, the way its always been. Fascinatingly, there was once over a million Samaritans in Eretz Israel, around the year 500 CE, before a failed uprising against the Byzantine Christians resulted in the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of them. The Muslims forbade the open practice of their religion until 1820.

    I’ve considered the various Talmudic claims of Naturei Karta and Rebbe Teitelbaum and I don’t believe them to be correct (as do most of the Orthodox world). Obviously, this isn’t the kind of site to go over those things extensively, but I can point you to the sources and arguments concerned.

    Be very careful looking at Naturei Karta historical material, some of it borders on conspiracy theory, and the rest actually is. There was a great discussion about this matter not long ago on the blog of an English Rabbi now living in Beit Shemesh.

  150. It’s the kind of site to consider such things but it isn’t the right post for long, didactic essays in the comments.

  151. I think its very important to qualify any seemingly positive mention of Naturei Karta with the facts I just gave. These are the people who supported the Mumbai massacre in the Chabad House, as Chabad’s style of Chassidus is too open and tolerant for NK. I’m serious. NK are tiny, but generate a lot of attention, partly as they are given copious amounts of airtime on Arab and Iranian television (many Muslims are led to believe they are the only true Torah Jews left in the world). They are often used as a kind of Jewish fig leaf for groups like Hamas and the Respect Party. Israel-bashing groups always display them like prize heifers at events, and its always the same 10 or so led by R. Yisroel Dovid Weiss. Then again, the Palestinian Solidarity Campaigns seem to award their members with a free car if they can find a Jew who agrees with their opinions. Despite the fact only 3% of Jews in the UK do so.

  152. Please do not ignore post 176, Bock. What NK did after Mumbai was despicable and a major Chillul HaShem. They should not be praised for their views, or called ‘refreshing’ by anyone except the Ayatollah.

  153. Fine, but he should know their views are not ‘progressive’, but Medieval. As can be seen from their statements after Mumbai and their praise for sharia states. This isn’t refreshing, its a blast from the third century.

  154. Forgive me if I’m wrong about this, but I thought you said your belief in Zionism was contained within the tenets of Judaism. Before I go any further, can you tell me if, by Judaism, you mean a religious teaching?

  155. I believe most of the central ideas the secular Zionists had, like the benefits of dwelling in the land of Israel, or the request for sovereignty and independence already have a basis in the Jewish religion, yes.

    Many early Zionists, but not all, took long held cultural and religious values and obligations from their tradition and declared the religious component unnecessary. They are within their rights to stop practicing Judaism, but not force everyone else to do so (as many wanted and tried).

    However, there is also a Jewish people or nation, and not all members observe Torah Judaism. Rav Soloveitchik zt’l said being Jewish involved two covenants: one of faith and the other of fate, or destiny, and perhaps this is a good analogy. The Jewish nation, religious or otherwise, is intimately connected with the land of Israel and has never fully abandoned it. It is the birthright of every Jew and most certainly not a consolation for the Holocaust. The Jewish People have national ambitions. Many who take their Judaism as a matter solely of ‘ethnicity’ agree, though I argue that identity will last three or four generations at most. And of course, there are secular Jews who intensely study Talmud!!!

    Sorry if that is long-winded, but the argument over ‘Who is a Jew’ rages on and on and there are no easy answers if I am going to address the opinions of others and not just my own.

  156. @ thesystemworks. What a load of bollox….For a seemingly inteligent person, to my mind you have a few screws loose. You talk about “progressive” and “medieval”. Well all religion is medieval, or maybe that should be evil. All religion is man made. Fundamentalist religions are particularly sick. Anyone living their life according to some ancient book needs their heads examined, wether its the bible or the koran. This is 2010, get real. Who gives a flying fuck if your toilet faces Mecca.
    The proof that you religious nuts are sicko’s is the fact that you kill in the name of god. your god, my god, his god, what bollox. If there is a god, there can by definition only be one. and who says he has to be worshiped. If he is so fucking wonderful, he knows if you are thankful, or in my case, pissed off by all the sicko’s that claim to represent him.
    I think we should have a special public holiday set aside for holding down ALL fundamentalists and shaving their fucking beards off. And they should all be made to conform to proper dress code. Well done the French on that one.
    All lack of capital letters done deliberately.

  157. Bock perhaps when Israel sinks the M.V. Rachel Corrie with the loss of all hands, we may loose T.S.W and friends. The lectures on internecine Jewish disputes are becoming tiresome.

  158. I hope it won’t come to that, despite what the robot ambassador, Ruth Zack, says.

    The Rachel Corrie is not carrying any sort of military supplies, and I doubt that even TSW would condone sinking this ship.

    If Israel sinks the Rachel Corrie or kills any of the crew, it will be an act of terrorism equivalent to anything done by al Qaida or Hamas, but as I said, I hope it won’t come to that.

  159. Sorry Bock you do not get it. A torpedo mid ship and rake any survivors with heavy machine gun fire.
    Then claim they committed suicide have you not read the Prince by Machiavelli?
    I doubt that T.S.W or friends would have a problem.

  160. Bock: I suppose the answer is yes, but I agree with those who say no. It was a most definite ‘no’ for me before I became religiously observant.

  161. If your Zionism is based on religion, do you see any contradiction in accusing others of holding medieval beliefs?

  162. There is a gulf between saying one is religious and wanting to whip a woman a couple of hundred times for complaining about being raped. Or even supporting the killing of Orthodox Jews who work with drug addicts.

    If there is a Jewish nation without God, so be it. But it will not be sustained any longer than the existence of the Ten Lost Tribes.

  163. Gary @182….I think they already done something like that before.Only problem for them was the goddam ship would not sink.That was the American USS Liberty,they were hoping to get Egypt blamed for sinking it.

  164. T.S.W. given that Bock has tolerated you going as far off topic as possible. Perhaps he may allow me a question. Ten lost tribes? I thought there was only one and you had found them in Ethiopia a few years ago, and repatriated them to the “homeland” . Much to the revulsion of the European Jew’s as the Ethiopians are black.

  165. I’ve tolerated you and William’s complete ignorance on matters Israel up until now, no reason to stop now.

    Under Shlomo HaMelekh’s son Rehoboam, the Kingdom of Israel split into two, Israel and Judah. The Ten Tribes populated the Northern Kingdom of Israel. They were defeated, scattered and exiled by the Assyrian Empire and lost. Before this they had been lapsing into idolatry and the ways of their non-Jewish neighbours.

    Many groups are suspected of descending from them, such as the Bnei Menashe in India, who are now mostly set to come to Israel en masse.

    The Beta Israel, or Ethiopian Jewish community do not claim to be descended from the Northern tribes, but from an earlier period.

    You’re perception that there is ‘much revulsion’ against them in Israel tells me the European media has gotten to you. Most Israelis regard the rescue of the Ethiopian Jews as the proudest moment in the country’s history. There may be racism, as there is anywhere, but it is mostly confined to Russian olim who see them as competing for jobs, noticeably with much traditional Russian chauvinism.

    One Friday evening I was at the Western Wall plaza after davening, when some very happy soldiers came along, clearly a secular bunch of guys. Some Hasidim came up towards the plaza from the Kotel itself. Because of my expertise in Hasidic garb I knew their town of origin in Russia by the unique shape of their fedoras. The Hasidim were in an ecstatic spiritual state, and immediately grabbed the soldiers to dance a hora (a traditional Jewish circle dance popular in Israel). A couple of guys were hoisted on the shoulders of the others, a Hasid and a black Ethiopian soldier. The Hasid exchanged hats with his new friend. It was an ‘only in Israel’ moment, but if only it wasn’t Shabbos and I had a camera!

    A racist state? This is a melting pot, as good as New York or London!

  166. Marvellous. The Bnei Menashe are going to Israel because some preacher learned in a dream that they used to be Jews. When they left Israel they miraculously became Indian-Chinese headhunting animists before converting to Christianity.

    Who will you evict to house them?

  167. Bock I’m getting very tired of all this yidderish. Why don’t you change the name of the site to TSW the Robber.
    10 lost tribes? Did you hire a private investigator, or maybe you realy are like the rest of us and dont give a shit, after all it was so long ago.
    So tsw, you have “tolerated” others “complete ignorance” on matters Israeli. Well aren’t you fucking wonderful. Do you not realise that we do Irish history in school here, and I for one always hated it. So why should we be experts on the history of the jews. We couldn’t give a dawm. Like I said already, move on. Religion is an illness. Anyone that fills their head with such useless crap as you do is very sick. and the same goes for our moslem friends. What really annoys me is the fact that many unfortunates have been massacred, slaughtered, murdered in the name of religion. Is that what your fucking god wanted.
    Now fuck off to your synogogue.

  168. Peter A — I’ve asked TSW to show respect to other commenters and I’ll ask you to do the same.

  169. T.S.W. sorry to have upset you with my ignorance of the various sects of Judaism. Perhaps ( Bock allowing ) you could give us a list of the various sects and a brief explanation of their beliefs? Failing that please check what an utter screw up your “boys” made of the act of piracy and kidnap on the high seas. Try reading this thread from the start and check how many agree with your opinion.

  170. Peter: ‘So why should we be experts on the history of the jews’

    Well, here’s my problem. People generally avoid commenting on things of which they are largely ignorant. This rule of thumb virtually never applies when it comes to Israel. Those least qualified have the biggest mouths.

    I studied Irish history in school also by the way.

  171. Yes. I feel just as angry about the Arab Muslim colonisation of the land of Israel as I am about the British doing it in Ireland. I’ve always believed Judaism to be an anti-Imperialist religion. I am glad that the Zionist movement has created the first independent state, that is not part of an empire, in the land of Israel since it was last under Jewish sovereignty thousands of years ago. All others have been illegitimate occupiers. Which is why I find the slogan ‘Free Palestine’ ironic. Saying that would have meant you were a Zionist back in the forties (see groupslike the American League for a Free Palestine). The Arabs never sought an independent state in the historic land of Israel until very recently. Palestinian Arabs pretty much wanted anything but that in the thirties. Look at the Peel Commission Report.

  172. It seems that the “state” of Israel will not tolerate or accept an International enquiry into their acts of piracy ,kidnap and murder . As they are “God’s chosen” and as such can do no wrong. I am not surprised. If we had a government in this blighted land , we would have recalled our Ambassador and expelled the Israeli delegation . How true People get the Government they deserve.

  173. Jewish sovereignty means Jews are free to decide their own destiny within national boundaries, not subject to the rule and whims of others.

    Two thousand years ago, the Jewish kingdom was similar to the kingdoms of other peoples. There was a Jewish king, Jewish laws and state Jewish religious system.

    Today the Jewish state is similar to the democratic republics of other states. There is no privileged group from which the head of state must be drawn, as there is in the UK and other countries. It is a Jewish state as the majority of voters there are Jews. The language is Jewish, and the calendar is Jewish. It is the only country that can speak for Jewish interests on the world stage, as Ireland can do for the Irish, and Kurdistan can do for the… well, as Ireland can do it for the Irish.

    The only independent state that has existed where Israel is now did so thousands of years ago, and it was also Jewish. No other peoples or governments had a right to be there or rule there. The Byzantine Christians, the Arabs, the British and Turks were all illegitimate imperialist impostors. No other people but the Jews sought independence or possessed a national identity.

  174. Guns make everything easy.

    The occupants of the Rachel Corrie were very wise not to resist armed men ordering them to alter course. If you “invited” me to go to Ashdod, I’d accept your request too, unless I wanted to end up dead like the crew of the Mavi Marmara.

  175. To be clear about this discussion, I don’t dispute the right of a Jewish state to exist. However, in common with many Jews, I have great concerns about the amount of injustice that has attended and continues to attend the establishment of that state.

    In particular, I am very disturbed by the mindset that regards the Palestinians as interlopers of some sort, as if they had no right to occupy this land you have designated as Israel. It reminds me very much of the Serbian attitude to the Bosnians.

    I’m fascinated to discover that the Jews had a nation-state two thousand years before anyone else. It must have been difficult to be the only nation-state in the entire world.

  176. It wasn’t called a ‘nation-state’ but it was a similar model. This was a time when the Ancient Sumerians and Greeks still had the competing ‘city-state’ model of governance, usually with one dominating the others before being overshadowed by another city. The only older example of Ancient Israel’s mode of governance would probably be the Kingdoms of Egypt.

  177. I see, rule and whims of others. Well if all of Israel has the same attidude as you do, there will never be peace in the middle east…

  178. TSW’s sneering comment about it being easy sounded like something a cheap Mafia goon would say. It diminished him in my eyes, but his comments stand for anyone to see.

  179. The nation state, or lack thereof historically, doesn’t stop irridentist claims to all the
    territory of Ireland by nationalists. The same people who advocate a One Nation
    solution to the Palestine question. Amuses me how people who advocate a one nation theory do so in the sure and certain knowledge that they’re going to end up in the majority ! But not to worry, they, unlike the former lot will rule on a strictly rational and fair basis. While some Israelis discussed this One nation option in the Cannanite group, it never got any traction. Not hard to see why.

  180. It’s extraordinary that you should say such a thing. I would have thought the Israeli model would encourage the Irish to expel anyone whose family didn’t live on this island for more than a thousand years. That seems to be what TSW is suggesting.

  181. Thats rubbish and I don’t see how I’m suggesting that.

    Plus, Ireland did lose a lot of its Protestant population from 1912 to the Civil War.

  182. Did you not say you felt angry about the Arab-Muslim colonisation of the land of Israel?

    Where did you notice me mentioning Protestants?

  183. Yes I did say that. But that doesn’t mean the descendants of the colonizers and even those still loyal to outside powers should be sent away. Arabs who decide to stay and behave are fine.

    You didn’t mention Protestants. Most people in Ireland don’t. Its an uncomfortable truth. There are bodies of murdered Protestant civilians and families around Cork, where I used to live. Everyone knows where the bodies of the Hornibrook family are. Why have they not been excavated?

  184. You mean in the 1947-48 period?

    There were lots of reasons for that exodus. Only a minority who left ever saw an Israeli soldier. The vast majority fled before the Declaration of Independence in May.

    The Arabs back then made a terrible choice. They chose to make war against the new state. Their attitude was summed up by one commander who said: ‘I do not mind [the] destruction of Jaffa if we secure [the] destruction of Tel Aviv’. That was a bad bed to make for themselves. Their problems were largely self-inflicted, with Palestine’s Arabs especially betrayed by their own leadership.

  185. Of course many towns and villages were wrecked in the course of the war. Hundreds of Arab settlements had to be captured from hostiles.

    800 Palestinians died in direct massacres, along with hundreds of Jews. Though while the Jewish forces captured 400 Arab settlements, Arab forces only managed to capture a dozen Jewish ones, most of them abandoned already. The ones that were still occupied led to no refugee problem, as the Arabs merely killed them all. In the rest, they razed everything.

  186. They said they didn’t mind the destruction of their homes if they secured the death of all the Jews. They failed in their rotten aim. A stinking refugee camp is a just reward.

  187. While I recoil at the venom of your words, I allow it to go out on the site anyway so that people will see what we are dealing with.

    This is not something I will argue about. I feel soiled by your hatred and I will no longer engage with you.

    Your platform is withdrawn.

  188. ‘This is not something I will argue about’

    What, you don’t want to hear another narrative? Tough. I’ve read nearly everything about the Palestinian exodus, from Benny Morris and even to the Israeli Communist Ilan Pappe. I am planning to read Efraim Karsh’s new book ‘Palestine Betrayed’ but I haven’t gotten around to it yet. I’d wager I know more about the topic than anyone else here.

    ‘I feel soiled by your hatred’

    Cut your schmaltz. Typical Church of Palestinian Victimhood fare.

    To answer your question: most fled because they heard of Jewish military successes and overblown accounts of atrocities from the Arab and Irgun media. According to an Institute of Palestine Studies survey, 68% of those who fled never saw a Jewish soldier. There were other phases of the flight. 100,000 left almost immediately when the British withdrew. These were largely professional and upper middle class Arabs who feared a Mufti-controlled Palestine more than a Jewish one. Many of these were actually on good terms with the Jews. 5% of the refugees were forced out by the Arab armies for safety, mainly in 6 settlements between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Residents of Jaffa fled long before the city was taken. The residents were subject to abuse by Arab forces, and had their homes sequestered by fighters.

  189. Are you forbidding me from discussing all topics or just Israel-related ones?

    Either way, if I am banned from talking about any subject, I will not be commenting on or visiting this site again.

    Enjoy giving media fellatio to Palestinians in future to a chorus of agreement.

  190. Having slept on it overnight, I decided there was nothing to be gained by hiding TSW’s attitudes from the light.

    As you can see from his final comment, the mask has slipped.

  191. In fairness Bock he didn’t have much of a mask on to begin with. His vitriol for all things Palestinian shone through. I found it funny him saying he didn’t like the people on the Mavi Marmara.. how can that be when he doesn’t even know them. That’s just pure bias for you.

    164 “… I have been going over what went wrong with the mission for some time, offering constructive criticism and recommending Eli Marom (known to frequent the Tel Aviv strip clubs, btw) be held accountable for making this a police-style action and not a military one. I may not like those people on the boats, but *our boys* should do whatever it takes to avoid casualties.”

    He didn’t like the people on the boats and he thought there should have been a military style action to seize the boat.. says it all really. “Our boys” won’t like being criticized saying one of them frequents a strip club.. I just can’t believe an Israeli would even do that. How obscene. tsk tsk..

  192. It wasn’t the Israeli model I meant, but the advocacy of a one nation solution as a way of solving the ME problem.
    Presumably expelling is the last thing on the minds of those who advocate everyone living together. I’m, however , cynical about majorities in partitioned states being asked to cough up their status. Perhaps in todays world with the glare of the meeja on them they might survive.

  193. I must agree with FME. Since T.S.W. began his rant (in my opinion bordering on the psychotic) there has been no mask. I do admire his ability to ignore facts and deflect all posts from the topic. The I.D.F. have a clear case to answer ,of piracy, kidnap and murder . The British and French Governments are demanding an International enquiry. Our lickspittle incompetent shower of filth are staying silent.

  194. America expects to get tough sanctions imposed today at the UN security council on…ahmm…Iran!!….If aliens landed here this week they could be forgiven for thinking Iran had just attacked and massacred an aid convoy.

  195. To the best of my knowledge, Iran hasn’t attacked anyone in 200 years but perhaps TSW has information to the contrary.

  196. Bock, great to be back on your blogg and learning, my head allways feels lighter by your enlightenment. I was in the army musuem in Stockholm recently and in a storage area noticed a bus, a white bus with a red cross sign on the sides and roof. It was an old Scania model with fitted strechers along the inside walls. I asked questions which I am prone to do and the storeman told me it had made ca 60 trips to Auswitch beginning april 1945. The Germans allowed in a convoy of ca 30-40 white buses from the Red Cross to the concentration camps to take home Scandinavien Jews and other displaced Polish Jews. The storeman allowed me to climb onboard and I sent my empathy out to the nameless who were saved. It was a humbling moment for me. A convoy of white buses to Gaza came to mind.

  197. Needless to say I took pictures of the bus before it was stored away.

  198. Of course Bock and you are more than wellcome. As I recall I owe you pictures of my primus and now the Red cross bus. There are 4 or 5 buses left in europe and I know there is one in Copenhagen at the Resistence Musuem so they are a piece of our history and of the Jewish People. A son of one of these surviviors fetched out of Auswhich works with me. Our lives are more interesting than we know. The pictures are coming Bock And it is great to be back from the mountains.

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