Aug 032010
 

According to the Catholic bishops, the Catholic Church in Ireland “does not see itself in the future as the sole or dominant provider of schools”.

Excuse me?

In what sense does the Catholic church provide schools apart from owning the buildings which were in any case, paid for by the State?

They don’t pay the teachers.  They have no qualifications in education.  They have no expertise in management. They don’t pay for the heating, lighting or maintenance.

All they have is a residual power, given to them by the worst prime minister in Irish history, to sack teachers they don’t agree with.

On the downside, they have a history of attempting to obstruct multi-denominational education in this country, and of course, in case we might forget, to hide the activities of child abusers for decades.

There is no reason why these dysfunctional, emotionally-damaged old men should have anything at all to do with our children’s education.  Would you let one of these sad old bastards anywhere near your child?

Why should bishops control education?

It’s outside their competence.  You wouldn’t expect a Catholic bishop to be in charge of road maintenance or dental care because he knows nothing about such things.  And yet, magically, people somehow think that a Catholic bishop is the very man to oversee their children’s education in mathematics and literacy.  He isn’t.  He’s just a sad old bastard who was abducted too young and forced to live through the hell of a seminary when he should have been out getting laid.

This is not the sort of man to put in charge of your child’s education. He has too many personal issues to resolve before he’s allowed near any child or any education policy.

  27 Responses to “Catholic Bishops’ Control Of Irish Primary Schools”

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  1.  

    I can’t see them relinquishing a thing!
    Maybe a few schools where the “faithful” aren’t very failthful with the offerings?
    Otherwise, it will be business as usual.
    “Control” of schools is an exact description of what they currently have.
    A priest on the news said he knows for a fact that parents want the CC to continue to run Catholic schools.
    Do you agree?
    I don’t, but some might to avoid teaching religion to little Johhny themselves, or taking him to Sunday school???
    What do you reckon?

  2.  

    It’s nonsense. These guys won’t give up anything until they’re kicked out.

  3.  

    Sadly we’ll have to wait until they die out. How long will that take? And at that they (the bishops) will see to it that they will have their own still in charge by having “Lay people” (do they ever get laid?) placed in position to ensure the ethics of Rome continues to rule the classroom.

    If there’s no collar then the lead will do.

    Meanwhile not one of our “leaders” , certainly of the present ilk or the immediate blueshirted future, would dare consider giving these cunts the boot and keep them far away from our children, even in the 21st century and despite all the revelations about this evil institution, it’s hard to believe this forelock tugging attitude still applies and our education system is seen as a sacrificial lamb (pun intended) to show our continued devotion to The Vatican City State.

  4.  

    I was made kneel and pray to a bin that I threw over one of the lads for a laugh when I was 12 by one of these cunts, not exactly serious abuse but humiliating at the same time, I think the cunts are nearly gone now from that school, but they still are holding onto the last bit they can, They have no fucking business there

  5.  

    Ireland is the last stronghold for the RC church, its like an abusive relationship the people make excuses for. Schools here in the US leave religion out of it and instead focus on grade inflation to get government funding for good performance.
    It seems that people just cannot do the right thing where children are concerned and give then a good education and preparation for the future.

  6.  

    I cannot fathom the connection between Religion and Education.
    But then neither can I fathom the connection between Health/ Hospitals and Religion, the Religious participation of either is beyond archaic and controlling.
    One of my kids is expecting a baby soon and one of their neighbours advised them to have their baby christened in the Catholic Church so as to gain entry to nearest school.
    I don’t even have the words to express my anger at this, None of my kids were baptised, communionised or confirmed, They did not attend any Religious classes and all of this was years ago.
    To now have to hear this bullshit and pressure is just aarrrgggghhhhh !
    Religion is a personal choice of individuals, or at least it should be, I too had the pressure of ” sacraments ” and my kids feeling ” left out ” I did not want either to impose my own views too strongly so I bought books and did my best to answer questions in as educational a way as possible while insuring there was no ” left out ” factor impinging on them.
    They are all grown up now and thankful they did not have to endure the indoctrination of their peers.
    However a friend of my kids who is Cof I was refused entry to the nearest school, His family have lived in the area for over 200 yrs but this fairly new Headmistress will not accept Cof I pupils, This Father took it to Government level and was still refused, He is now looking at a legal route.
    All schools are going to have to be Multi Denominational as in encommpassing all Religious persuasion and those with none, Whereas the criteria for Non Demoninational is only encompassing of all those of ” Christian ” faith.
    Personally I see no place for the teaching of Religion in schools or of the placement of these ” men ” of extreme religious persuasion on the Board of Management of every primary school in the country.
    They have conducted research into a handful of schools as to their handing over to Lay people, They say that parents want them to remain, Maybe thats true, So where are the parents who want them to go ?

  7.  

    “Sexually dysfunctional old men retain control of Irish children with government approval”

    Just me being picky again.

    I think it is more correct that ….

    “Sexually dysfunctional old men retain control of the Irish government”

    Sorry. I know.

    Picky Picky Picky.

  8.  

    Bock asks why are Bishops running Education?

    Em let’s see …..

    Because …………..

    “Sexually dysfunctional young men retain control of the politics.ie”?

    Picky or what?

  9.  

    the church and dept of ed are currently re-concreting catholic domination of education into the these new vec schools, and don’t expect labour to help read the shockingly woolly thinking of joanna tuffy td who seems to operate by sentiment rather then judgement http://www.anseo.net/2010/06/why-dont-vec-primary-schools-have-web-sites/

  10.  

    Thanks for the link Steve.
    Looking at most comments on P.ie it’s no mystery as to why no change occurs here, Better to bitch or offer up cynical commentry rather than attempt to execute positive change.
    Why don’t parents who want Religious education take on board the responsibility for same at home ? Its the same ol same ol ” better the devil you know ” attitude.

  11.  

    @Hoof

    Why should we have to wait till they die out?

    Any political party with the balls to put the seizure of primary schools from the Catholic Church on it’s manifesto would be on to a winner. Ten years ago it would have been a sure-fire looser. But not now. Or do I misjudge the electoral flock?

    Just expropriate them, and do it ASAP.

  12.  

    Bishops dont actually ‘ run’ schools to the extent that you are making out. The Dept of Education sets the curriculum, provides the Inspectors who oversee the education standards and set and correct exams. For example the Bishops have nothing to do with the ‘ dumbing down ‘ of standards that have recently been the source of much debate. In reality the teaching unions have more power to influence matters on a day to day basis. Also true the average Bishop actually wants as little to do with the running of schools as possible – the same actaully goes for parish priests as well. At the end of the day it is up to Dail Eirenann to decide what happens in our schools and they dont actually seen too intersted in getting invloved either.

  13.  

    Bishops and priests don’t run the schools. They control them. They hire and fire the teachers, who have no remedy under employment equality law.

    I’m looking forward to the teachers’ reply to what you have stated as fact.

  14.  

    The teaching unions have ultimate control of what catholic Bishops can and cannot do – anybody who does not understand that is incredibly naive. Our political representatives – yes ours – have the legislative powers to change the law to reflect whatever changes they think the electorate want. We tacled the sensitive subjectives of dropping the special position of the Catholic Church from the consttiution.
    It is no good blaming the Bishops – Bishops dont have seats at the Cabinet table !

  15.  

    From speaking to people recently it is my understanding that to get into a local Catholic primary school you need to write ‘Catholic’ on the form. Atheist or other isn’t going to get you in. I was told today that the same is true for getting school transport.

    My kids went to Limerick School Project which welcomes diversity and embraces multi culturalism, so we never had to deal with church people when enrolling.

    It is also my understanding that while the Government pays for the Catholic school buildings and maintenance of them they are atually owned by the church. This is one reason the Govt. is interested in having an ‘Eductae Together’ type management structure where the parents serve on the Board of management and run the school and the school remains the peoperty of the Government.

  16.  

    Joyce — You seem to think the primary schools are State-owned. They are not. 98% of Irish primary schools are privately owned, even though the taxpayer pays all costs. Furthermore, the management of these religious schools are specifically exempted from the employment equality law that governs other employers. The State pays the teachers but is not the employer. Furthermore, there is no non-denominational teacher training college in the Republic.

  17.  

    Joyce. Can you please explain then. Why does a priest have the power to prevent a child from availing of school transport ?
    Why does a parent have to fill out a form indicating religion of child looking for entry to a primary school ?
    Bishops may not ” have a seat at the cabinet table ” But as we have all seen, That does not dilute their power there.

  18.  

    Well Bock and Norma, I presume you and your friends have votes and if so what have you been doing with them ? I have written more letters criticising the Catholic Church than I can remember, but guess what my two kids are going to a Catholic secondary school ! And no i am not a good Irish Catholic, in fact I don’t go to church at all anymore.
    So why are my kids going to a Catholic school ? Easy, it is convenient, it is a good school and as you pointed out, my taxes are going to pay the salaries of the school.
    Am I worried about discrimination some teachers – you are joking me , aren’t you ?
    As far as i am concerned the entire public sector is discriminating against ordinary private sector people like me. I cant afford a pension fund because I have to fund the bloated salaries and defined pensions of the public sector. If some Cathoic religious group has provided the school;buildings and grounds and a good environment for the school which has increased my choice between a religious school and a state school, then i am all for it. What I don’t understand is why so many state schools cant achieve the same high standards as some of the religious ( and they can be catholic or protestant ) schools. Maybe you can answer that for me ?
    Here’s something else for you to think about – I know several gay people quite happily working in catholic schools !

  19.  

    I can answer that easily enough. The State pays for all primary schools.

    You seem to have overlooked Norma’s questions.

  20.  

    Joyce. Not only did you not answer my questions but you allude to ” Gay people ” working happily in Catholic schools as if that is something special or adventurous ? Why should’nt Gay people work wherever they want to ? What does that have to do with anything ?
    When you ask about the lack of ” high standards ” in state schools, What are you referring to ? Is it exam results ?
    Because if it is, I have a different view on ” high standards “.
    There are many people in the public sector, who work well outside their designated hours to provide responsible education and frontline services, Being divisive about working sectors is not productive or relevant.

  21.  

    Bock are you suggesting that the state has built and paid for 100% all Primary Schools and extensions in this Country ?

    Now Norma I sure don’t remember filling out any question like that for my kids, but if it is done, then i assume it is related to teaching of religion. Maybe I am wrong on that score – When i was in school, the protestant/s simple did other work during religion so it wasn’t a big deal. I do know for a fact that Non catholic schools, paid for by the State like Catholic ones, re allowed to limit the number of non- protestant pupils and I cant recall any ‘Bishop Bashers’ complaining about that !
    As for Normas question about Priest and buses – I have no idea what she is talking about ! I went to a catholic primary school – priests almost never went into the school – has so0something changed – do priests now do school administration ? I do remember priest being involved in fundraising for school extensions though – maybe they didnt know that the State was going to pay for all that ?
    My comment regarding gay people was related to schools not being subject to equality laws – maybe I got that wrong and these comments about equality laws were related to women not being allowed to be priests – is that it ?

    Just what does your definition of high standards encapsulate ?
    Norma i had to collect my kids on six separate days last academic year for parent teacher meetings which is one day more than the previous year. Another change from last year was that three of these ‘Half days’ began at 11.00 am. Norma its over – we are no longer interested in the guff we have been fed for years about the dedicated hard working teachers who contributed so much – its bull. Even the exam results that the teaching profession have been so proud of have been benefiting from grade inflation, So even the aspect of teaching that we thought could be assessed reasonably objectively is not all that we thought it is meant to be. Heck we cant even totally sure that teachers will give out the right exam papers !
    Another thing Norma we are not going to fall that ‘ don’t be divisive about working sectors either’. Want to know why we are not all out on the streets protesting ? It is because we ordinary Joe soaps know that the public sector just wants to use us – This country is divided into the private sector and the public sector.
    How many Ministers of the Government which has brought us to the brink of ruin are from the teaching sector ? Six is it ? If you have problems about Bishops and schools ask Batt O Keffe, Michael Martin, Hannafin etc, etc about. Even Enda Kenny is a teacher ! God what a choice one set of teachers or another set of teachers !

  22.  

    Two things Joyce. This isn’t about the teaching profession, so maybe you could park that for another day. Secondly, if you’re talking about ownership of the buildings, then let’s treat the church as landlords where they’ve provided the buildings, and pay them a reasonable rent. The State provides the teachers and the teachers deliver education, not priests or bishops.

  23.  

    Bock you have dodged the question I asked about who financed the building of schools and extensions to schools ? Well, about all the money parishioners donated towards the cost of providing the these schools ? It wasn’t the State who provided these donations, it was ordinary people. And whats more, there were occasions when non – catholics generously gave substantial donations. And lets be realistic, in a country that was 90/95% Catholic and fairly impoverished, it isn’t that suprising that the Church was in control of so much of the educational infrastructure – it is a historical fact so less of the outrage. I dont notice any protests about the members of the Islamic religion setting up thier own schools – its what happens in a reasonably free democracy. And another fact is that the church is reducing its influence and control of the education system. . And when you say the State provides the teachers, it doesn’t really – most of them come/came from the very same catholic church dominated system you are so disparaging of. Most are or traditionally were catholics and these very same teachers were as important in ensuring that the catholic church held its influence over the population – you could have said that the primary teachers of Ireland were the Pope’s Elite Storm troopers. No priest or bishop ever physically hit me but by God, I have been belted by Primary Teachers a plenty. See where I am coming from here – the only control the church really had over us was the control we allowed.
    I see you and Norma avoided the point I was making as regards the power of the teaching unions. I f the teaching unions seriously objected to the opt out clause on equality, they could bring the catholic school system to a halt by simply withdrawing their labour – I’d say one or two token days strike would do it, don’t you agree ? So answer me, why don’t they ?

  24.  

    Joyce — It would be yet another example of poor governance if we had to rely on a union to determine national educational policy. I would far prefer to see the government actually governing and recognising that the clergy have no competence to provide education. I’m not a teacher, so I can’t speak for them, but it would be good to see them standing up like adults. They didn’t do it when Eileen Flynn was sacked for living with a man, and not much seems to have changed.

    Your point about the training colleges is a circular argument because in a country with 98% religious-controlled primary schools, it’s inevitable that the training system would be like that. As regards your point about teachers being Catholic, all is not as it seems. Rather than repeating what has been said in previous posts on this site, I recommend reading Mairéad’s writing on the reality of being a primary teacher in Ireland. It seems that many primary teachers are living a lie for fear of being sacked.

    Going back to the buildings issue. I have not avoided the point. As I already said, it seems fair to pay the church a rent for whatever buildings or land they actually provided, but I’m not aware of any other enterprise where the landlord is automatically the manager but doesn’t pay the wages. Are you? This issue has a much deeper history than the clergy simply having an altruistic desire to educate the people. It’s about power, not charity. When the primary schools were originally set up by the British government, they were multi-denominational and that remains the case in law, though widely disregarded. No primary school is legally designated Catholic: the religious character comes from the patronage, and the bishops have jealously guarded that patronage. The Catholic bishop in this town worked tirelessly to prevent the establishment of a multi-denominational school independent of the churches, and put every possible obstacle in its way.

  25.  

    Post on the way :-)

  26.  

    Joyce posts so much misinformation that the response deserves an entire post, here.

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