Aug 302010
 

Everywhere you look, lightbulbs are coming on.

In Brussels.  In the markets.   In the Financial Times.

Even in the Green Party HQ.

Isn’t it just as well Gormley didn’t manage to completely  rid the country of lightbulbs?

At last it’s beginning to dawn on the party that knows better than everyone else, that it was a monumental disaster to bail out Seán Fitzpatrick’s Anglo scam.  They’re beginning to realise that there’s something wrong with pouring all the EU structural funds Ireland ever received into a failed property bank.  They’re slowly starting to grasp the fact that we could have allowed Anglo to fail, and let the international gamblers get stuffed.  They’re finally getting it clear in their holier-than-thou heads that it was all a lie, and we would not have to stump up €70 billion, despite what Lenihan and Cowen said.

It was all a lie, which Eamon Ryan and John Gormley vigorously defended until it could be defended no more.

We could have allowed Anglo to collapse while still protecting the depositors, and this is where Willie O’Dea’s latest demand to jail the bankers is so misleading.  By all means, fling them in a cell.  I don’t care if they rot in a dungeon, but it was not the banks’ mismanagement that screwed the country.  That honour goes to Lenihan for his insane and unnecessary guarantee.

We committed another €4 billion to a thing that was a bank neither in name nor nature: Irish Nationwide Building Society, and nobody has been able to explain why.

Willie was part of the cabinet that agreed to this lunacy, and if he truly believes what he said about arresting wrongdoers, he should hand himself in to the authorities right now and admit his part in the destruction of his country.

The Greens, meanwhile, might finally have developed some sort of backbone, though that remains to be seen.

Perhaps, in  the certain knowledge that they’ll be annihilated come election time, they’ve decided to do one decent, principled thing and shoot the Anglo monster in the head before it devours us all.

___________

More on Anglo

  97 Responses to “The Anglo Scam — Greens Finally See The Light”

Comments (97)
  1.  

    Sean Fleming FF TD on radio as I write and speaking now of a gradual close down with the help of the European Central Bank. Dermot Ahern on 20 mins ago in a less beligerent tone than previously, also about a gradual close down. Yes, it’s now on the agenda and it’s HQ Brussels who are pushing it, it appears. Good on them! Who ever had ze crazy idea of letting the likes of Cowen, McCreavy and Ahern run an economy in the Euro Zone? Mon Dieu! They have probably also forwarded 86 copies of ” Economics pour Nulles, ” one for each Government TD.

  2.  

    Stable door. Horse.

  3.  

    I’ll remind you Poll that our Biffo, who was caught gasping on a fag in Croker recently, is a top, top political leader. Why didn’t Newsweek list him at number 5 in a world leader chart just two weeks ago. Biffo is our man, going forward – toward the edge of the cliffs of Moher.

  4.  

    Eoin. Excellent analogy as the appointment of Dr Noel Cawley in non executive role to Anglo board totally qualified in such matters !
    This morning on PK interview with WOD, poor deluded mustachieod one, his little legs in tatters from backpeddeling stated ” It is not a question of baling out Anglo Irish, It is about cleaning up the mess made by the former board of Anglo ”
    He went on to claim…..
    ” I’m simply reflecting public anger ”
    As Churchill once said ( roughly ! ) ” This is not the end, not the beginning of the end but it might be the end of the beginning “

  5.  

    Concerted backpeddling now in full flight. Send out the minions first to float the idea and then it becomes embedded “going forward” , so to speak. Before the week is out “wind down” will be on every lip and Cowen, Lenihan and whoever else is on the bridge of this ship of fools will even be taking credit for this innovative strategy and having the courage to undertake it. What’s the Brusselese for Wind Down? Desescaler?

  6.  

    Anglo Irish Results are due out tomorrow.

    They already know the numbers.

    All Willie O’Dea is doing is confirming that he knows he fucked us.

  7.  

    Late one night last week there was a loud banging on my front door and I opened it to find a sharp suited, smiling individual with a cigarette dangling from his lip. He told me that he needed to borrow fifty Euros to pay back another man who was waiting in the car at the end of my drive. I asked this man why I should give him the money, to which he explained that my neighbourhood, as a whole, owes thousands of Euros to this man in the car and he will not loan my neighbourhood any more money if I refused to pay him back the money that, even now, I still fail to remember borrowing from him in the first place. After half an hour of esoteric explanations that only serve to further confuse me about why I needed to give this stranger fifty Euros, and just to get rid of him from my doorstep, I agreed to give him the money on the provision that he revealed the identity of the man in the car. The man at my door explained that the man in the car had a right to secrecy and his identity has to remain unknown. I protest and demand to know his identity before I hand over the money. The man at my door explains that the man in the car has the protection of the court to defend his right to anonymity. As I handed over my hard earned cash with which I had intended to use to buy my children some new clothes, I asked the man on my doorstep if I might at least know his name. “Sure” said the man “I’m Alan Dukes.” As he walked down my path toward the large 10D registered car with blackout windows I asked would I get a receipt for my fifty Euros? “Will you f**k” replied Alan.

    Darren

  8.  

    Again, the lamentable absence of accountability. No election, no bye elections, no Dail in session, rule by edict. And they are getting away with it! If the whole strategy is to be reversed and a wind down is now the new catechism, surely it must be an election issue or at least it might be in societies that even pretend to play the democratic “game”. Was it Karl Marx who described Liberal Democracy as a committee for the management of the affairs of the upper bourgeoise?

  9.  

    @Poll Dorcha. Before you start throwing too much praise at the European Central Bank, don’t forget that Mr Trichet was France’s Brian Lenihan when he helped to screw the Franch people with their very own NAMA after the Credit Lyonnais scandal. In order to get France and that bank out of its hole, a deal was struck which contained the prerequisite that those that caused the collapse were exempt from prosecution. So don’t hold your breath for those jail cells to start filling up with pin-striped inmates.

    Darren

  10.  

    “and he will not loan my neighbourhood any more money if I refused to pay him back the money that, even now, I still fail to remember borrowing from him in the first place”

    Nice story Darren! But I think that line above is the crux of the whole matter. The little guy always pays – that’s a fundamental underpinning of the global economy. If big investors actually had to assume real risk, they’d never invest their money, and then we’d really be screwed.

    I’m probably going to be very unpopular on this site for saying this, but I think that in the long run we’ll be glad what happened did happen, when it happened.

    Disclaimer: I hate our government, and hope they all get the shits for the rest of their lives.This isn’t about defending them, but I think that their crooked policies may actually save us as a viable economy in the long run. Also, I’m not an economist so I could be totally wrong as well ;)

    The global economy goes into melt down. Investors are hurridely trying to recoup their money left right and centre, pulling their financial support out and causing already crumbling enconmies to collapse. But our cute hoors, kill two birds with the one stone. One, they cover their backs and the backs of their own little cabal, and two they open for business as the largest international casino that pays you back your money even if you lose
    Well, if I had a couple of million stuffed down the back of the couch I know where I’d be investing it…We have to pay very high, guaranteed rate of interest on any money we borrow – we’re a dodgy inverstor’s dream right now.

    Yes, a lot of people have lost their jobs, it sucks real bad, and we all know someone who was affected by it.
    But in terms of the overall blow this country took, it was pretty minor compared to some other countries who had fuck all to begin with…

    This isn’t our parent’s recession. Back then, there was simply no money, and there was no money coming into the country via foreign investment. Now, it’s different. The foreign money is still here, thanks to the bank guarantee (and other underhanded dealings our current government has engaged in). And let’s face it, this country is still awash with money. Sure, the government coffers have been bled dry four or five times over, and the money is not being used *right now* to pay for useful stuff, but eventually you’ll see the rate of haemorrage decrease and more money coming back to where it belongs, like our hospitals and schools.

    But it would have been a lot worse if we had done the “right” thing and told all those foreign investors to get stuffed. They’d never invest here again. I know that Uruguay has been cited as an example of a country that basically did that, but the key difference is that they were at the time a relatively underdeveloped country, and would have no problem in getting renewed investment from foreign companies who knew that they’d get preferential rates, dirt cheap labour and very good tax breaks. We’ve already sucked the marrow out of that one for the last 15 years, so I don’t think it would work for us – would we really be willing to go back to square one, working for a couple of euros an hour?

    Feel free to flame away or shoot me down as mentioned earlier I’m just giving an opinion :)

  11.  

    Just wanted to post an addendum; when I said that the little guy always pays, here is an example.

    My dad used to work for a guy whose job it was to arrange the transfer of funds from private individuals who wanted to invest in movie productions. Actually he was like an insurer’s underwriter. Anyway…
    One of his clients wanted to invest about 50 million dollars. Long story short, the transfer of funds was set up to go via a bank in the Caymens which was actually a mafia honey pot. So the money simply disppeared. Cue long investigation, courst cases, death threats, etc, anyway they got the guys who did it but never got a cent of the money back.

    And the investor? Got all of his money back from the underwriters. Who in turn got it back from their underwriters. Who in turn got it back from joe public via, for e.g increased mortgage insurance rates. That’s how it’s always worked.

  12.  

    What was the alternative to the bank guarantee and NAMA?

    I’d be one of those Green voters (though not a party member) who rolled with the story we were told by Lenihan that the guarantee and NAMA was the only show in town. I was quite happy to see the Green Party in government and pursuing their agenda, which remains a vitally important one, in my opinion, in the belief that there was no real alternative on the Anglo question. Now, it seems that the leadership of the Greens are rowing back. Could they have done so two years ago and saved the country many billions? Or would we still be liable for those billions anyway through whatever other solution may have been needed?

  13.  

    Bock,

    I think you’re being too charitable to Gormless and the other Green tinged fully paid up members of Planet Bertie.

    They are merely looking to save their skins, a year late and €24 billion short. As Rich banker says the results are out and they’ve seen them, and more importantly so has the EU who are calling the shots.

    This is choreographed to take attention away from the motor tax fiasco and Gormless snivelling on the radio that it’s not his fault. There’s nothing like Boyle tweeting to appear the hard man. I can’t think whether he is the Greens Willie O’Dea or Mattie McGrath. There is one significant difference though – Boyle couldn’t get elected.

    I look forward to the day when all of them are thrown out on their arses along with FF.

  14.  

    Darren, good point about Trichet but I’m not calling for jail for anybody merely the least drain on the taxpayer in solving this mess. Brussels seems to be pressurising Cowen on the guarantee and that seems logical. Two years have passed and we are still in banking limbo. I don’t think any meaningful lending is really going on. It seems that we still have no big banks that are fit for purpose, but we have had the inserion of huge amounts of capital and lots of structural procrastination. Maybe Trichet’s pragmatism did the trick with Credit Lyonaisse?

  15.  

    Touche, Steve. I’m a fucking realist and I know the world is cruel and mean, but that does not stop me getting fucking pissed off at the unfairness of a stacked system. I like realism. Don’t tell me the lump in me nuts is a cyst is you fucking know I have enough cancer to power a city. I am fucking sick and tired of reading about people like JP McManus and how wonderful they are to Ireland. Wealthy billioniares who choose to live abroad to avoid paying tax to this country they are so patriotic towards. But sure doesn’t JP and Denis and Sir Anto give millions to charity…Yeah, which they claim back in tax credits or rebates. When I give to charity, I don’t expect to get some of the money back through other means. ITS MEANT TO BE FUCKING CHARITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Denis O’Brien hands out free mobile phones to Hiatians after their earthquke and sends his PR machine to go on radio to boast about same. Peolpe are starving and dying in the streets and Denis uses the opportunity to increase his subscribers. Steve, I know the world is a hard place. And I know that, last week, while the worlds charities were attempting to shame us into giving money to Pakistan, there were men in suits, sitting with their tax advisors and lawyers asking “How do I profit from this?” Just listen to Alan Dukes. I always had respect for this man, but he has lost it. I don’t think he is a fool, or even that he is vendictive. I think ‘Mr Tallaght’ has been hypnotised by the shiny shiny and he actually believes what he is saying. Take the murderer or the rapist – or just your good old psycopath – who views his actions as totally normal and essential, even as brain matter splashes his clothes. Dukes has had a long career in public life, but all this generation will remember him for was being the mobile pooper scooper for a bunch of faceless bondholers who have no borders or nationality. The next time I see you sitting outside Cafe Sol on Dawson Street I will pour my hot coffee over your head. Steve; to escape reality for a moment. You know that generic bad guy in the movie who is too cowardly to break somebody up himself, so he gets some goons to do the dirty. Thats Alan’s job. Fine Goon! You have come a long way Alan. “Will your money make you better?” And I don’t mean better than me. Better than you? What you used to be?

    Darren Williams

    Darren

  16.  

    The Greens are trying to distance themselves from FF, else they would have had a private meeting with Cowen / Lenihan and then made a joint statement about the possibility of closing Anglo. They saw the FT article, saw FF back-benchers starting to rattle, had an idea of the figures, knew the EU was twitchy, and decided to jump.

    The priority was public perception, and although in government with FF they decided to pull the rug in favour of standing shoulder to shoulder with the party they were happy to go into power with.

    It’s all politics, and although the idea to close Anglo appears the right one (we could still be looking at a number of years) there’s still a big whiff of cynicism in all this!

  17.  

    Darren, the world isn’t that hard of a place is it?
    Re: “I am fucking sick and tired of reading about people like JP McManus and how wonderful they are to Ireland.” Seriously, not being smart with you but don’t read it.

    “Will your money make you better? And I don’t mean better than me. Better than you? What you used to be?” Would money make you better you think? You realise you’re asking this of yourself.
    You’ll be arrested and rightly so if you throw a cup of hot coffee over anyone.

    True for you Bock. Willie fails to see where responsibility lays. The hypocrite.

  18.  

    Mermoz — The alternative was to guarantee the depositors and let the bondholders go to hell. Their business is gambling and they expect to lose every now and then. AIB and BOI could have been dug out for small money, but Anglo and Irish Nationwide were fake banks and could have been allowed to collapse.

  19.  

    Brace for impact.

    “The Irish redemptions nearly match some of the sector’s future full-year repayment commitments and are a result of the Irish government’s two-year blanket guarantee, provided in the wake of the collapse of Lehman Brothers, which runs out at the end of this month.”

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6d434510-b469-11df-8208-00144feabdc0.html

  20.  

    The only light the Greens see is the one at the end of the tunnel. It is a train coming to smash them into oblivion along with the filth that were the P.D’s . There may be enough arse lickers still left to maintain a rump F.F. until such time as a new Government has returned the country to some semblance of normality and then promising “milk and honey” they will romp back to the throne. The problem with History is we never seem to learn from it.

  21.  

    Bock, The Greens have no backbone, They are strategists , now grasping at straws.
    I stand open to correction on the following………….
    ” The Experts ” by that I mean people who are qualified to anylyse the economy and the coming years based on information and evidence provided, are saying………….
    At the end of ’09 Anglo stated they needed 4.6 billion,
    Experts are saying that figure will very possibly rise to 38 billion.
    AIB was valued at 1 billion on stockmarket today, they claim to have 3 billion in assets, they need 7.4 billion, That could rise to 10 billion.
    Experts say AIB will be state owned 70% by end of 2010
    Bof I need a further 4.5 billion
    Projected total revenue income for 2010 is 31.5 billion.
    Experts speculate on Alan Dukes et al suffering from “Stockholm Syndrome ”
    Information still being drip fed from all sources.
    Experts predict the wind up of Anglo will take 5 to 10 years and will in that time absorb the 38 billion which does not exist.

  22.  

    Now would be a very good time to stiff the bondholders.

  23.  

    Bock if we think about this. If someone backs a horse that trots home the following day who would pay out on the bet? We do! The bondholders bet and lost. They bet because they were told they were onto a sure thing and the odds were great. They lost but we PAY!
    P.S. the day after the race and without a jockey.

  24.  

    Who do we hope will ” stiff ” the bondholders ?
    We don’t know who they are, Are they developers, Politicians, people who have funded FF ?
    I agree, it’s time, it’s hospitals, schools frontline services………..or the bondholders.
    Heres some interesting facts on Anglo.
    http://thestory.ie/2010/04/20/anglo-bondholders/
    hope that link works

  25.  

    Look to Sweden , where on aug 28th 2010, The FSA revoked HQ banks license and applied for liquidation because HQ broke regulation and had overvalued its portfolio resulting in serious trading deficiencies.
    What is our regulator doing ? Why can that not be applied to Anglo ?

  26.  

    ive said it before.Willie O Dea is the political equivilant of fucking Renfield..Yessssss Master…what a cunt.

  27.  

    Jesus wept.

    Farce after farce.

    Willie O’Dea will now be on this week’s Late Late Show lecturing us about bankers.

    Lets tell RTE what we think about this at latelate@rte.ie

    @TubridyTweets

    Insult after insult to voters intelligence.

  28.  

    A Minister for Defence who shot himself in the foot – sure he’ll be a great one to talk about strategy and what’s best for the nation!

  29.  

    Re Comment 6.

    The Greens knew.

    €8,200,000,000 loss for six months.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0831/breaking2.html

  30.  

    The Anglo press release.

    Can’t see any direct reference to a provision on the €2,800,000,000 owed by the Quinn family.

    Do they expect to recover the whole lot?

    http://www.angloirishbank.com/Media-Centre/Press_Releases/Interim_Results_2010_Press_Release.pdf

  31.  

    @FME. Must we always be rational. If I chickened out at the last minute to pour my cup of coffee over Alan Dukes’ head, how many people would be lining up behind me. Maybe it would be a waste of 3.00 Euros and a nice cup of black coffee. But really, FME, don’t you ever feel like just tearing the place up out of anger?

    Darren

  32.  

    Darren,

    Save your coffee! drink it and then use the empty mug, much more effective as it can be hurled from quite a distance :)

    But seriously, I’m not saying that what is happening is right, or even pleasant. It’s not! But I think that the alternative is actually worse.
    (Of course to qualify this, the situation should never have arisen. We should have had a regulatory board with a spine that was doing their job and could stop this whole think from happening. But it has. And rather than just closing the stable door after the horse has bolted, we’re buying another horse and putting it back into the stable so that it’s owner won’t have lost out. By all means, shoot the stable boy whose laziness led to the horse escaping; but don’t punish the blacksmith, or the groom, or the guy who makes the hay for the horse to eat)

    And of course the government (scumabgs) are going to try to sell NAMA etc to us…after all, it’s their own gamble – that the long term financial good name of the STATE is better than the short term economic wellbeing of the PEOPLE. Well, I am not sure that I 100% agree with this, but it is a reasonabe viewpoint, from a certain reference frame.

    Sure, we could be putting the money we’re currently pouring into the “black hole” into our schools and hospitals. It would be great, for a year or two, until we ran out of money. In the meantime, the people who are benefitting from this black hole bail-out are the same people who will give us money in the future. Suppose we did tell all those bondholders to get stuffed. How much tax revenue do you think the state could raise when every foreign company pulled out and the average national wage was chickenfeed again? Where would we get the money to pay for our schools and hospitals then?

    Sure, it’s being born into usury, and a lifetime of what amounts to indentured service. That’s capitalism for you. There are alternatives, but are we really ready for them?

    And if we really, I mean really, as a nation are not happy with it then I say fine, let’s be done with it but we have to be prepared for a seriously radical change in our lifestyles. We’ll be dirt poor again for a long time. Personally, having been born dirt poor, it wouldn’t bother me too much to have nothing again. I can’t speak for everyone else though.

    So darren, I hear you and I feel your anger. But which will make you feel better. Having a few bob now, and seeing all of those banker’s corpses swaying in the breeze blowing over gallows hill, or knowing that your kids will have jobs in 20 years time?
    Or, should we tear the whole system down and go back to farming, fishing, and indigenous industry only for our own benefit (not being smart here; it’s a viable alternative, although the EU might have something to say about it)

  33.  

    I see Alglo Irish have just posted the greatest loss in Irish Corporate history for 6 months results; that is since the last time they posted the greatest loss in Irish Corporate history.
    How can we make these bastards stop? After all Alglo Irish is the Fianna Fail bank – they funded the developers who greased the fuckers in the Galway “tint” who in turn corrupted the planning laws, which ultimately expanded the bubble which burst, spraying the shit everywhere.
    This Fianna Fail vampire bank may well cost €35 billion (I’d believe S & P sooner than those cunts in Government); work that out that’s €7,500 for every man, woman, and child in the country, or a sobering €21,000 for the 1.7M people who still hold a job.
    How many hospitals will that be which won’t be built, infrastructure which will collapse without funds to fix it, crappy schools in prefab buildings – the money was sucked out by the Fianna Vampire bank to fed the bondholders instead.
    Now I see that cunt Aherne (the Minister for “Justice”) not the one who has luck on the horses, is proposing to cut the minimum period for bankruptcy to six years. Surely this is a coincidence – can you think of anyone connected with the Fianna Vampire bank who was made bankrupt recently?
    I have never voted for Fianna Fail, but it scares me that if we ever have another election (It could be a distraction after all), these fuckers will still get about 25% of the vote.
    Fianna Fail have done about as much economic damage to this country as the Nazis did in another guise to Germany.
    The Nazis were made illegal after the war. Is there any chance we could similarly get rid of Fianna Fail for once and for all?

  34.  

    You know, I’ve been asking an English friend of mine lately if she’d be willing to rustle up an army and reinvade.

    Yes, I am I getting to the point where I think foreign rule – from Westminster or from Brussels – would be a better option than the current government. And I am entirely aware of how far I must have fallen into despair to think something as nonsensical as that.

    I’m making plans to become self-employed and leave the country as soon as possible. I’d recommend anyone with the means to do the same. There is no patriotism on earth that can equal the pain we will be put through to pay off this mess, and it’s made all the more vicious when you know that the ones responsible will never be held to account for it – and they will probably even be re-elected by the same bloody-minded tribalism that has kept them in power for far too long.

    I’m begging you – if you can, leave. Take your family and get out, and spend ten or fifteen years elsewhere. Go to the continent, or to Scandinavia. You’ll pick up the language in time. Don’t stay here and let yourself be bled for the crimes of the wealthy elite. The only other option is political reform, and that looks like a distant dream at this stage.

    Perhaps my children will see it, if they return at all. I, personally, have no more hope.

  35.  

    Methinks that Steve here is a secret policy maker for FF/Bankers/Developers and other such robbers. Is that all you can say to us Steve. It could be worse!
    When an election is called here in this lovely country of ours FF et al are going to find out just how worse it can get. I think a lot of the pundits like yourself Steve actually believe you can influence what you think is a downtrodden beaten electorate.
    The population of this state in their own time and in their own way will give you their answer. Get it into your head Steve, we are not going backwards – get out of the fucking way – we are not afraid of the future.

  36.  

    @Claire Ryan, I’m sorry to say I feel the same.

    I’m damned if I’m going to have my children put through what is coming as a result of September 2008 and the idiocy that followed. Public health care here will be non-existent, the education system will be only barely adequate even for those who can afford to pay, crime rates will rocket and, if I am not unemployed, a sizable portion of the taxes I pay will go to fund the historical rescue of FF’s cronies. All the the tune of neo-liberal media hacks and the likes or Michael O’Leary (who’s company pays no, count it, no, direct tax whatsoever) telling us how we need more austerity.

    Stay away for at least a decade, I reckon, and do what you can to fund and promote political change from abroad.

    P.S. @Steve. You are so wrong, that I can only assume you are a FF/Glasraí troll.

  37.  

    There must be an alternative to emigrating, wishing for foreign rule or throwing cups of hot coffee over a Bank chairman. I think change can happen if we demand it. If enough people start screaming, you’re bound to be heard.

    And ignore the type of crap telling us to “await the European Commission’s discussion on what should be done with the bank”.. from the likes of Alan Dukes. We’re not idiots Alan, we can see the writing on the wall, we don’t need the commission to tell us what we already know.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0831/breaking38.html
    “Alan Dukes has said he is uncomfortable with the public debate about the future of the State-owned bank during recent days.” Yeeesh. It’s equivalent to saying, ignore the thieves robbing your house.. you don’t know everything they’ve taken yet. For fucks sake.

    @Darren..
    Yeah, I think we should always try to be rational Darren. If others want to resort to violence, let them be the thugs. I think there’s a certain amount of anger to be felt towards the government that’s appropriate and a certain amount that seems more like transference of one’s own anger when there’s rage involved. I don’t feel like tearing the place up too much Darren. Music helps! Working out too. Screaming in your car.. try that one! Just put the radio up loud. :)

  38.  

    Steve,

    “Sure, we could be putting the money we’re currently pouring into the “black hole” into our schools and hospitals. It would be great, for a year or two, until we ran out of money.”

    I think you are looking at this the wrong way.

    If I may, you might want to consider the distinction between Capital and Current expenditure.

    I’ll stick with Constantin Gurdgiev’s €35bn for Anglo and €6bn for INBS. Let’s call that €40bn.

    If you spent the €40bn over ten years you could build …..

    (using Bockomonics, http://bocktherobber.com/2010/08/developers-mcinerney-and-treasury-holdings-default-irish-taxpayers-pick-up-the-bill)

    [One IR$chool equals roughly €2 million]
    [One IRChildHospital equals 500 IR$chool]

    ……

    You could build two state of the art hospitals every year for ten years (€20bn)
    AND you could build 50 primary schools a year for 10 years (that’s 500 primary schools)
    AND still have €19bn left over.

    It seems to me that you are mistakenly confusing capital expenditure and current expenditure.
    Is there a problem on the current side. Yes there is. But that’s not the issue.

  39.  

    Steve,

    “Sure, it’s being born into usury, and a lifetime of what amounts to indentured service. That’s capitalism for you. There are alternatives, but are we really ready for them?”

    I think you are again wrong.

    It is not Capitalism (which is ill defined). It is Fascism (the merger of State and Corporate power.

    As Mussolini said.

    “Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power.”

  40.  

    Steve,

    “And if we really, I mean really, as a nation are not happy with it then I say fine, let’s be done with it but we have to be prepared for a seriously radical change in our lifestyles.”

    What makes you think that we will not suffer a “seriously radical change in our lifestyles”.

    By the way I’m really, and I mean really, not happy with the Fascist antics of Fianna Fail and the Green Party.

  41.  

    Steve,

    “We’ll be dirt poor again for a long time.”

    I disagree. There would be a painful adjustment but it wouldn’t last forever.

    If we waste €40bn/€50bn of the States capital we will feel the pain for a lot longer.

  42.  

    Just a few comments based on all the comments above and our (Irish) propensity to not react to mis-government. I am trying to put in some comments which I think are very relevant – we need to do more than throw coffee!

    “A popular Government, without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a Prologue to a Farce or a Tragedy; or, perhaps both.” — James Madison

    “The issue today is the same as it has been throughout all history, whether man shall be allowed to govern himself or be ruled by a small elite.” — Thomas Jefferson

    I think the following comment really sums up what we are in danger of becoming, unless we remove (legally) those subsersives – Cowen and Linehan. Some will argue that the potitical opposition have no answers either – however the opposition did not throw away the nation and its future – the economic traitors first should be removed.

    “A people may prefer a free government, but if, from indolence, or carelessness, or cowardice, or want of public spirit, they are unequal to the exertions necessary for preserving it; if they will not fight for it when it is directly attacked; if they can be deluded by the artifices used to cheat them out of it; if by momentary discouragement, or temporary panic, or a fit of enthusiasm for an individual, they can be induced to lay their liberties at the feet even of a great man, or trust him with powers which enable him to subvert their institutions; in all these cases they are more or less unfit for liberty: and though it may be for their good to have had it even for a short time, they are unlikely long to enjoy it.” — John Stuart Mill, Representative Government, 1861

    or from longer back
    “There is one safeguard known generally to the wise, which is an advantage and security to all, but especially to democracies as against despots. What is it? Distrust.” — Demosthenes

    I belive the following comment says it all
    “The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first.”– Thomas Jefferson –

    But we can see Mr Cowen has played fast and loose with our money and our Constitution.

  43.  

    Interesting quotes, Fergal. Quotes from philosophers of government, some of whom are even considered to be founding fathers. It pains me to say that our little State was not founded by philosophers or anything approximating it, but by money-grabbers and ideologues. Is it any wonder we would have no concept of civic responsiblity?

  44.  

    Fergal,

    “we need to do more than throw coffee”

    Excellently brief education in political philosophy.

    I suppose a Tea Party would be no good.

    http://www.writeonnewjersey.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/Boston-Tea-Party.jpg

    That would be only the self interest of people who got fed up paying tax to a distant Monarch.

    For Monarch think Bondholder.

    Some keep asking “Who are the Bondholders”.

    Only a Bonded Slave would ask “Who is my master”

    Is it the one who beats me? Is it the one who gives me food? Is it the one who gives me free third level education?

    Is it the one who creates “money” out of thin air? Just to keep me slave?

    Is it Patrick Honohan the Governor of the Central Bank?

    Your slave Master Patrick Honohan created €11,500,000,000 out of thin air to protect his Masters?

    Why did Patrick Honohan create €11,500,000,000 out of thin air and put it into Anglo Irish Bank?

    Am I missing something?

    I don’t think so.

    Patrick Honohan, the Governor of The Central Bank of Ireland is SCUM.

    Oh, and Fergal, in case I haven’t made myself completely clear.

    When your Slave Master Patrick Hohnahan creates money out of thin air.

    You, your immediate family, your extended family and the generations of all of those must (and I mean MUST) pay the Slave Master Honohan back.

    If you don’t. He gets paid anyway. Just like his predecessor.

    And then the brutality starts.

    How’s that for “Political Philosophy”?

  45.  

    Maybe its because the Irish Central Bank has E12 billion on deposit with Anglo. Likewise the EU Central Bank has a similar amount in the vampires vaults.

  46.  

    To all my detractors; what can I say; opinions are like assholes – everyone has one. Thankfully not everyonne here is one.

    @Rich Banker, I’m not an economist and I’m only giving my opinion. Strangley enough, so are you. Nothing you have said is pure unadulterated fact.

    Also, your “opinion” about the boston tea party and the revolution that followed is an example of just that. The “people” in America weren’t fed up paying taxes to a distant monarch. They were conned into revolution by a group of people who wanted to rule in place of the British. The taxes in question were a matter of principle for the ruling class, and in fact in many places where the revolution gained large support, hadn’t even been collected for years.
    But I suppose that opinion, because it’s different to the romantic one, only makes me an ignorant troll.

    Bock’s figures, if they are right, still don’t address what would happen once you had spent the money. Where do you get the money to pay for staffing and running them? Borrow it like we’ve done for the last 20 years? But from whom? That’s why I said that if we want to stop what’s currently happening, I am fine with it, but we better all be prepared to run out of money, fast. Leaving aside the banking black hole, we do still have obligations to other creditors, don’t we?

    p.s next time you feel like calling me a gobshite, would you please have the decency to apologise *to me* and not to Bock. (post deletion or no, it still arrives in my email).

    I am neither a troll nor a FF or Green apologist. If you had read my posts you would know that I can’t stand them, and that I am all in favour of hanging the lot of them. But what’s done is done and we have to look to the future.

    “I think a lot of the pundits like yourself Steve actually believe you can influence what you think is a downtrodden beaten electorate.
    The population of this state in their own time and in their own way will give you their answer. Get it into your head Steve, we are not going backwards – get out of the fucking way – we are not afraid of the future.”

    Well said, except that I never advocated voting the bastards back in. In fact, for the record, please don’t ever vote FF or Green again.

  47.  

    @FME. I try not to scream and shout while Tom Waits is playing. It tends to ruin something beautiful. In your arguement you say that enough people cry for change, we will get change. Thats called protest. Whatever you might want to call it – protest comes from anger. Everytime somebody in the government or a director of one of the banks comes on and tells me “anger is not the solution”, that is a sure sign that anger is the solution. Even this morning, Brian Cowen telling us that “every discision taken at Anglo is in the interest of the taxpayer.” This is a lie, and I don’t like being treated like a fool.

    Darren

  48.  

    “Best interests of the taxpayer”…. E4 billion,E8 billion,E12 billion,E16 billion,E24 billion and rising.Rpeat after me: best interests of the taxpayer.

  49.  

    You are all individuals. You don’t need to follow anybody.

  50.  

    “You are all individuals”

    I’m not!

  51.  

    I know how you feel Darren. Stevie Wonder or John Denver or Johnny Mathis have the same effect on me. :) You are being lied to but you’re not a fool obviously. I am just not an advocate of violence to solve anything. That is all.

    FME over and out.

  52.  

    No, Bock, your just a very……..

    You know the rest.

    The Life Of Brian. Now there was a much misunderstood piece of social commentary.

    “We should be fighting the common enemy.”

    “The media. Bock the Robber. FME.”

    “No the fucking Romans”

    Trouble is, who are the Romans in this drama?

  53.  

    I’m confused.

    So are the Greens in favour of an orderly wind-down or not?

  54.  

    Rich Banker it depends on whose hand is up their arse at any point in time. Sometimes F.F,. sometimes Bankers , sometimes the “sandal hugging” faction.

  55.  

    Rich Banker. Your comment/question @ 53, Thats why I call the Greens ” Grasping Strategists ” They create focus, get their 5 mins of attention and coverage, Then rehash all the lessons they learnt from their masters FF and all backpedal furiously, All the Greens are in favour of is The Greens, Its obvious, Someone else is calling all the shots here.

    Steve. Not to quote all your paragraph at comment 32, The one beginning with ” Sure we could be putting money……………….” That whole paragraph is contradictory, Do you believe for one moment that at anytime in the future, Those bondholders and/or banks will provide loans to rebuild what is being destroyed ?
    The problem I have with that concept is that the systematic destruction of the fundamental services in this Country will be so crippling that no foreign investor will touch us with a proverbial bargepole.
    If contra your statement, the Government did invest the ” black hole ” money into hospitals, schools, industry, generating jobs, revenue and self reliance, We would then have some hope in attracting foreign investment.
    If the bondholders of Anglo are supported at our expense, all that will be created for them is ” world is your oyster ” leaving us in tatters, Do you really believe they will reinvest here ? Best case scenario they will buy up prestige property for little or nothing and wield a hand so powerful over us that we will revert to near financial enslavement.
    Making this Country a better place to live will always attract investment, Bowing and scraping to ” The Masters ” will only further our exhibition of weakness, Showing confidence in what we have tried to achieve by bolstering it now is the only way of retaining some semblance of a nation.

  56.  

    Investors don’t work on emotion or retribution. They work on the possibility of profit.

    Their Anglo bet went south, but that eventuality was factored into their calculations before they bought. The government bailout of their gamble is a huge, and unexpected, bonus for them.

  57.  

    @norma – You are spot on there – I couldn’t have put it better myself – the whipped cur approach of the government to the almighty markets doesn’t guarantee investment. Quite the reverse. And slash-and-burn austerity makes it even less likely.

    As the Bockerator says, the blanket guarantee must have made these professional gamblers think they had died and gone to heaven.

  58.  

    Bock. It might sound a bit pedantic…..but ! ( hate that !) Investors work on the probability of profit.
    Now wondering if the almighty bondholders, based on law of probability saw this coming.
    Investment in the future is the only way out.

  59.  

    That’s all right Norma. I don’t mind you being pedantic, but I think the possibility of profit is enough for most greedy people. Probablility is a mathematical measure of expectation ranging from zero to 100%, and doesn’t imply any bias towards likelihood. Sorry for being pedantic.

  60.  

    From one pedant to another…………no problem !

  61.  

    It is long since time to put Administrators into all the Irish Banks, BOI and AIB included. Then tell the bondholders that they will will not be paid back. The majority of the Irish citizens are unwilling and unable to bail out crooks, frauds and incompetents. Who in their right minds ever thought that they would or should bail out these people.

    @Rick Banker is absolutely correct on the cost of Anglo and Nationwide. Approx €40 billion. That is €10,000 per head of population. McWilliams thinks its more. Next time Willie comes to your door, ask him to show your signature on the purchase order for that amount.
    Remember its €10,000 per head in every house in the country plus €10,000 per head for those that don’t have houses and sleep in caravans or the streets. And that just for the two Fianna Fail banks.

    I don’t believe that the people who owe money to Anglo, Nationwide or NAMA are being chased for the money. Companies are being folded and the big boys are walking away., Scot Free. Plus villas in Spain, France etc and more personal property than Lord Frank Fahey of Galway.
    Billionaires and drug barons seems to have a lot in common. Juristiction hopping seems to be the latest craze.

  62.  

    Steve, you can`t have it both ways. You spout the policies of the discredited FF/Bankers/Developers, a scaremongering tactic being quoted by all of the above. Then you say you hate the bastards? Methinks the Lady Doth Protest Too Much.

    A wonderful article in todays Irish Times by Brian Lucy shoots so may holes in your FF/Bankers/Developers spin it should sink without a trace. Only paid pundits like yourself continue with all this rubbish talk about how all investers will abandon Ireland to poverty and penury. You Steve are an obsticle to the truth as much to blame for the dithering and lies coming from the above mentioned robbers who pay you to diseminate the blatent lies and distortions you have represented here.

  63.  

    Sodacake — If you have evidence that Steve is paid by FF, I’d like you to produce it now. Otherwise, please retract that accusation.

  64.  

    Sodacake13, you’re missing my point. I never said I wanted it both ways.

    I agree that the situation should ever have gotten to this point. i.e there should have been proper regulation to make sure that the banks were not handing out foreign inverstor’s money like candy. That’s the reason we’re facing this whole mess after all. In that respect, I am quite entitled to fling mud at the people who let it happen, as are we all, hence the bastards moniker. And also the reason why I would never vote for them.

    BUT given that it has already happened, there’s little point crying about spilt milk now. We need to fix the problem, and worry about who gets hung later on. My opinions are 100% my own. I don’t need to refer to articles written by so-called journalists to make my point. Maybe I am wrong, maybe. But then again, maybe I’m right. I don’t know.

    So I fail to see how I am being an obstacle to he truth. It’s all laid out bare for everyone to see, what’s is being argued over here is how to FIX IT. We all know already who caused the problem.

    Funnily enough, I’m not getting paid to comment on this blog, but Brian Lucy is getting paid to have a particuar stance on the subject.
    So I can claim objectiveness to a much higher degree than he can.
    And quite frankly, I find your comment that I am somehow to blame for this situation insulting.
    I never borrowed huge sums of money to fund a lavish lifestyle, or buy a new car or anything like that. Hands up, how many people here have credit cards? Mortages in excess of 1200 euros per month? Have bought new cars / tellies / computers on credit? Well, guess what? If you did, then YOU are part of the problem.

    The fundamental pivot of this particular flaming that I’m getting seems to be that everyone wants to believe that if we tell foreign investors right now to fuck off, take the loss and good luck, that somehow they will magically say “oh, well, win some lose some, here, let’s put some more money into the country”.

    Honestly, that beggars belief. The investment and lending systems scale from the likes of you and me going for an overdraft, the the government borrowing billions. If we have a poor history that makes us a risky proposition, we simply will not get the money we need. Sucks as a system, but like it or not this state (and many others) is running itself on a credit card. Hence my original statement that if you want to make a real change, you have to get rid of that system, which can be done, but is horrendously painful for all involved.

    I never said I wasn’t in favour of it though, in fact if I recall correctly, that is precisely what I DID say in my first post.

    Perhaps fixing our hugely bloated civil service costs might be the start of a solution as it would mean we’d need to borrow less money, but given the severe problems we have had in trimming even the slightest amount of fat from that particular walrus, I couldn’t see it making much of a difference in the long run.

    When the problem has been solved feel free to shoot all those involved. I’ll provide the ammo. But until you can prove that I’m a paid shill, can you please try and make an argument that isn’t based on someone elses’ opinion?

  65.  

    Sodacaker, this might surprise you but it is possibly to appear to hold contradictory opinions at the same time. For instance you may not like the general policies of a political party, you may think they are self serving gombeens, but you may feel they are making the best of a bad situation with one of their particular policies.. go figure. You can agree with one policy and not agree with others. Oh so complicated, isn’t it.
    And guess what you might not necessarily be on the payroll either just because you happen to agree with a policy. I’m not agreeing with any opinions saying this.. merely pointing out that, you Sodacaker are not capable of countering any argument without resorting to mindless drivel.

  66.  

    Well Bock, smoking gun i do not have, he has not denied it at any time, I have deduced it from his posts. As is always the case, i could be wrong or i could be right. who knows. If wrong and Steve feels insulted at being accused of the crime of being a paid agent of the robbers, then of course i apoligise, of course if i am right and Steve takes advantage of the lack of evidence. Where does it leave us Bock.

    All his posts have followed the official line being spouted by the robbers representitives, he is repeating them verbatim. I don`t think he is doing it for free. I again state if i am wrong, Steve i am sorry to have shown you in a bad light. If i am right, where does it leave us?

  67.  

    There’s no iF about it Sodacake. Yo stated categorically that he was on the FF payroll. If you can’t substantiate that accusation, you should do the courteous thing and withdraw it without ifs or buts.

  68.  

    Steve

    “p.s next time you feel like calling me a gobshite, would you please have the decency to apologise *to me* and not to Bock. (post deletion or no, it still arrives in my email).”

    I asked Bock to delete because it breached Comment Policy.

    “People are free to rant and rave here as much as they like, including the use of whatever vulgar and foul language takes their fancy. They can make sweeping generalisations, pass offensive remarks and fling derogatory comments of any kind whatsoever, as long as those derogatory comments are aimed at the content and not at the people themselves.”

    “as long as those derogatory comments are aimed at the content and not at the people themselves”

    http://bocktherobber.com/about/comments-policy

    I hope that clarifies the position.

  69.  

    What’s the position that needs clarifying Rich Banker? That your ethics are determined by Bock’s policy is it? Your accountability stops there and if the policy is breached, it’ll be Bock you apologise to and no one else. I remember you having a spot of bother with morals all right, in particular on the Gerry Ryan thread. You couldn’t understand having compassion for strangers. Maybe one of the days Bock will write up a policy on morals that you can refer to whenever you find yourself unclear on your position.

    Bock, maybe you might see it in your heart to write up a policy on decency and humanity sometime, that we could all refer to. I’m much confused about these things. Much obliged.

  70.  

    @Sodacake13 – ok, for the record, I am not on anyone’s payroll. I have never voted for the current government. Can you stop with the ad hominem approach now?

    Also, I took the time to read Brian Lucy’s article. It’s certainly well written and makes perfect sense EXCEPT that if you read the comments (#4 where one poster questioned the legality of what he proposed, he could only say this:
    “My role, to look at the economic rationale and then as a citizen to comment in an informed manner. If something isnt possible legally then we change the law if we can .”

    So, even he can’t tell you that his plan is even be possible to implement , even if it would work. Isn’t it a bit dangerous to just accept what people write just because they have “Prof.” before their name, just because it conforms to what everyone else is saying, and it sounds like the kind of thing you wan to to hear?

    @Rich Banker, yes, it does clarify something — that you are apparently the kind of person who would spill a guy’s beer, and then apologise only to the bartender .
    I received in my inbox an email from this website wherein you referred to me personally as a gobshite. Yet even though you now know that I am party to what you said (albeit in anger), you can’t man up and apologise.

    Anyway, sticks and stones and all that, let’s leave it, shall we?

    Can we please get back to the subject at hand, to wit:
    Should we tell the bond holders to get stuffed?
    Can anyone name any country that has our level of development and living standards that has recently done something similar and is actually better off because of it? (Not Uruguay, as they were practically 3rd World already when they did it)
    If no such country exists, perhaps because this is a new situation we have on our hands, then therefore no-one can claim to be “right” since all solutions are unproven.In that case, is it therefore not more prudent to pursue a course of action that, whilst shitty and painful, at least will solve the problem, as opposed to trying out something that, whilst it might work, could also fail spectacularily?

    If I am wrong, and the IMF’s historical statistics are right, that for only 2 or 3 years after such a default, we’d be at the bad end of incoming investment, how does anyone here propose that the State would pay for the running of the country during that time?

  71.  

    “how does anyone here propose that the State would pay for the running of the country during that time?” How we’re currently running it ? Borrowing Steve. Except if we told the bond holders to get stuffed, we’d be borrowing less.

  72.  

    Thias claim that Anglo’s collapse would have brought down the entire Irish banking system needs to be nailed. It’s a scare tactic put out by the government.

    Think about it logically. If Anglo had collapsed, leaving all the Irish banks exposed to losses due to its default, what would have happened? THe government would have bailed out those banks, as it has done anyway, but that would have been the extent of the government’s exposure due to Anglo. Now, we’re still saddled with the costs of Anglo’s debts to the Irish banks but thanks to Lenihan’s insane guarantee, we’re also stuck with Seanie’s debts to international investors.

    Remember people, Anglo is still a private company.

    A private company.

  73.  

    Steve

    “@Rich Banker, yes, it does clarify something — that you are apparently the kind of person who would spill a guy’s beer, and then apologise only to the bartender .”

    At least you now understand my intent.

    I was wholly unaware that you were receiving updates via email. Actually I had no idea it was a possibility.

    What makes you think I would frequent the same bar as you?

  74.  

    People, I’m going to close the thread down if this bickering continues.

  75.  

    Steve,

    My view of the causes of the American Revolution is far from romantic.

    There was the victory of the British in the French and Indian War. Britain went into debt and wanted to recoup the costs from the Colonists.

    There was the Proclamation of 1763 prohibiting colonists from settling beyond the Appalachian Mountains.

    There was the Sugar Act of 1764 which increased duty on the import of sugar from the West Indies.

    I could go on (and on) but I won’t.

    It came down to property and the taxation of it.

    Not romantic at all. And I don’t think the people involved were saints or were lacking in self interest.

    Still, if you wish to jump to conclusions about my “romantic” notions feel free.

    I’m not easily offended.

  76.  

    “Rich Banker, you should be shot with the balls of your own shite”. Not my words. A wise fellow by the name of Jamie77 on the Gerry Ryan thread said that. Bock advised at the end of that thread, he was closing the comments and deleting the stupid ones later. That was never deleted though. hmmm.

    Ok, must be good. No more bickering.

    Bock, I agree with your hypothetical assessment on what would have happened on letting Anglo collapse. However I think a partial reason for not allowing it’s collapse is that it would create bad PR for Ireland Inc.

  77.  

    Right. Like we have such a great reputation we don’t want it damaged?

  78.  

    Steve

    “Bock’s figures, if they are right, still don’t address what would happen once you had spent the money. Where do you get the money to pay for staffing and running them? Borrow it like we’ve done for the last 20 years? But from whom?”

    Are you deliberately ignoring the distinction between capital and current spend?

    Did I not say that there was a problem on the current side?

  79.  

    Steve

    “That’s why I said that if we want to stop what’s currently happening, I am fine with it, but we better all be prepared to run out of money, fast. Leaving aside the banking black hole, we do still have obligations to other creditors, don’t we?”

    “be prepared to run out of money”?

    Why? That just Government spin.

    If you want to fall for it fine. I don’t.

  80.  

    FME

    “Rich Banker, you should be shot with the balls of your own shite”. Not my words.

    I thought that was quite funny at the time. Still do.

  81.  

    FME

    “However I think a partial reason for not allowing it’s collapse is that it would create bad PR for Ireland Inc.”

    But the difficulty is the FT editorial and the FT Lex column having “opinion” on the matter the Government PR war is being lost and the truth is beginning to dawn on people outside this sainted isle.

  82.  

    Even funnier, if we could actually see it Rich Banker. Ha.

    Bock, tis all about appearances me thinks. The gombeens are deluded into thinking they are upstanding, intelligent, comprehensible, capable, awe-inspiring managers of our government and financial institutions.. We know they couldn’t manage a piss up in a brewery, but that’s besides the point. Tis the perception on the international stage that counts.

    Agreed Rich Banker. The FT editorial doesn’t help the call not to be discussing these things as said by Alan Dukes recently. By the way, I remember reading back in May in the Irish Times a similar article as proposed by the FT. They’re not saying anything new.

  83.  

    “Are you deliberately ignoring the distinction between capital and current spend?”

    No, just your posts in general :)

    Seriously, no I’m not.
    Perhaps I have gotten the wrong end of the stick here, but although capital expenditure on hospitals, schools, etc, sounds like a find and dandy idea right now, we’d be spending someone else’s money (as usual) to do it. But aren’t the economic benefits of these institutions long term at best?
    The education and health of the nation in one such as ours isn’t what keeps investors away; maybe it’s not the highest standard in the world but it’s not bad compared to a lot of places.
    What keeps them away and drives them out is inflated wage costs. Remember DELL? Remember what happens when they try to make cutbacks in the civil service?

    In the meantime, once you have paid to build them, you then have to pay to run them. Can you explain to me where that current expenditure would come from? More borrowing?
    Surely that’s a diminishing return; you’ve borrowed 100 quid from Johnny to pay Paddy to paint your house; Paddy only makes 50 quid out of it (but gets pulled over on the way back because he picked up the kids in the van on the way back ;), the paint dealer gets another 50, and Johnny gets 110 quid back next friday. That can’t go on forever – can it?

    OK, so maybe you tell Johnny to get stuffed. you’ll borrow the money next time from Mike, except that Johnny and Mike go way back, and Mike is going to want some pretty iron-clad guarantees before he loans you the money, because, in actual fact, he already borrwed it from Johnny. So he has to pay back interest to Johnny, and will make bloody sure that you pay back double the usual to cover his risk.

    Or, perhaps you just say “fuck it” and leave the house unpainted. Which is fine too, as long as you are willing to accept that the neighbours will be laughing at you. Personally, I have no problem with this, but it seems to me that no matter what, we have to be prepared for serious pain in the forseeable future, and I would rather know that there is an end (no matter how far away) than risk that, when I need money off Johnny or Mike for something actually important, they’ll not answer the phone.

    The fact that the people who caused this whole fuckup appear to be getting away with it is really a red herring; that’s par for the course in this world. It needs changing, but right now that’s how it is.

    However, as Bock rightly pointed out; Anglo is a private company and we could perhaps just give it to the bondholders by way of default. I say this would open a serious can of worms, as the people who invested in it would be screaming murder that the situation was brought about by irresponsible investment practice. And it was irresponsible., we know that. They’d have no problem proving it in court.
    Heads would roll, people would be held accountable for what they did, but in the end as a nation we’d end up paying for, and losing, probably one of the most expensive law suits in the history of the state.

  84.  

    The banking policeman was without doubt utterly useless, but that fact doesn’t absolve buyers from the responsibility to beware. The financial regulator was not there to guarantee successful investments, or to relieve investors of the obligation to be prudent.

  85.  

    Steve

    “But aren’t the economic benefits of these institutions long term at best?”

    The health and education benefits are medium term.

    There are short term benefits in the employment (from bricklayers to architects and others).

    I suggested spending the €40/€50bn over ten years. Though all of it on schools and hospitals was a metaphor.

    That would be ten years of steady state employment. Taken at a sustainable pace (and I don’t use that word in a Greenie way) it would also allow for innovation and the acquisition of intellectual property, for the State.

    If half of €50bn over ten years went into employment at an average of €50,000 per head it would “create” 50,000 jobs. And no I’m not shilling for Tom Parland.

    The whole point of this thread, as I understand it, is that putting €50bn into rescuing private institutions has opportunity cost.

    Deposits were guaranteed up to €100,000. It should have been left at that.

    Personally (while I suspect I know some people who have that amount) I think the vast majority (95%) would offer a kidney, an eye and maybe a left testicle (or the equivalent) for that amount of hard cash.

    But what have the scum in Fianna Fail and the Green Party and the Stray Dog Independents decided to do?

    That’s right. Waste €50bn on people and institutions that took risk.

    Brings a whole new meaning to “Waste Management”.

  86.  

    Steve

    “What keeps them away and drives them out is inflated wage costs. Remember DELL? Remember what happens when they try to make cutbacks in the civil service?”

    DELL moved here because of the globalisation of Capital (no I’m not a Communists or a Pinko Liberal). DELL moved from here because of the globalisation of Capital.

    Look at the jobs that have been announced here recently. They are Call Centre jobs (good luck keeping them for more than five years) and Finance jobs (IFSC).

    I have no problem with the notion of having a “World Class” financial services centre. But you must understand this. One, the employment potential is limited. Two, employment will evaporate when India and China move to their next stage in the development of Global Capital, and they will.

    The “civil service”?

    I prefer the broader and more inclusive term “public service”.

    There are about 330,000 in the public service. They are all human beings some with families.

    I think, and yes this is a fact less based opinion, that about 100,000 were jobs “created” by the scum Fianna Fail to buy votes. One job = three votes?????

    Can we as a State afford the cost of the wages and salaries of the Public Servants? No.

  87.  

    Does that make Public Servants inhuman? No.

  88.  

    Steve

    “In the meantime, once you have paid to build them, you then have to pay to run them. Can you explain to me where that current expenditure would come from? More borrowing?”

    No. Not more borrowing. Though most definitely less expenditure on public sector wages and salaries.

    How can that be done?

    Ask yourself why house prices are so high (still)? Who is attempting to reflate the property market? Would that be the same scum that destroyed the country? Why are they doing it?

    Would it not make more sense to let it find its natural level and at the same time recalibrate Public Sector wages, salaries and pensions?

    You do know that there are Public Servants, now retired, who are “earning” more money now than they did at any time during their working lives?

  89.  

    It would be interesting to know which public services people think we should cut.

  90.  

    Steve

    “the situation was brought about by irresponsible investment practice.”

    Yes. That would be their “irresponsible investment practice”.

    Why must this State and its Citizens be condemned to debt slavery for the malinvestment of bondholders? Why are Fianna Fail, the Green Party and the Stray Dogs doing everything they can to make sure that happens?

  91.  

    Steve

    “losing, probably one of the most expensive law suits in the history of the state”

    Only if Fianna Fail and the Greens are in power.

    By the way this is a Constituted Republic.

    The people can be offered a choice.

    However, as Fianna Fail have shown nothing but contempt for the political philosophy of a Republic constituted by the people I won’t hold my breath.

  92.  

    The people won’t be offered a choice. They will be told three things.

    One. You will pay the bondholders.

    Two. These are the services you will no longer have.

    Three. Everybody employed by the State from now on is on contract.

  93.  

    If it were up to me, Failte Ireland (formerly Bord Failte and CERT) could go. They offer a load of mickey mouse courses there for unemployed people up at the former Krups location – LEDP I think its called now.
    In fact, I was told of the manager of said Failte Centre in Limerick doing a PHD course in the UK for €9,000 per year to complete.. plus flights, accomodation expenses, to attend the UK University multiple times a year – all on us. There’s a few of these centres around the Country. I’d like to know how much is pumped into them exactly.
    Coillte could go.
    OPW could go.

  94.  

    FME

    “I was told of the manager of said Failte Centre in Limerick doing a PHD course in the UK for €9,000 per year to complete.. plus flights, accomodation expenses multiple times a year to attend the UK University – all on us”

    It must be nice to have connections with the Fascist scum (and it’s not just Fianna Fail).

  95.  

    I’m going to watch Spartacus now.

    My niece calls TV “Brain Goo”.

    I think she’s right.

  96.  

    Yeah, that’s right RB.. it’s fantastic to have my connections. You need a favour done, let me know.
    Go give your fingers a rest. Enjoy your movie.
    By the way, a man of your calibre could fetch half a mill for a left testicle I’m sure.. you’re selling yourself short at 100K.

  97.  

    “There are about 330,000 in the public service. They are all human beings some with families.

    I think, and yes this is a fact less based opinion, that about 100,000 were jobs “created” by the scum Fianna Fail to buy votes. One job = three votes?????

    Can we as a State afford the cost of the wages and salaries of the Public Servants? No.”
    Some of us public servants aren’t human beings, don’t have families and it was the blueshirts who got us our jobs on total pull!!!

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