Heil Housing Director

Limerick City Council destroying local communities through stupidity and arrogance

Yesterday I had the surreal experience of attending a meeting in council chambers at city hall. It was for the purpose of being present while councilor Tom Shortt brought up our issue relating to saving the green space of Vize’s Field.

For the past two months, since the site notice to build was wrapped around a skinny lamp-post (contrary to regulations), my neighbours and I have been campaigning tirelessy to get the council to listen to us and leave this one green space. It’s not so big, a half acre site. Right now it’s trees, majestic and fine sycamore and beech are in full leaf and their sight and sound swaying in the breeze provides a welcome oasis from the city grime and frowns. We are asking the council for nothing, no funding, no regeneration money, just to take their carefully laid plans and build this towering monstrosity on an alternative site.


On the weekend we held a picnic on the green. We hung up bunting and baloons, and people came to share the fun and get to know their neighbours. They came from the city, from Prospect, Weston and Moyross too. We had a magic day. Local councillors turned up, some of them turned up their noses and left. Some stayed.


We have collected almost 200 signatures from the area and 18 independent objections were lodged. We want to keep this green space as an amenity to the community. There is a thing called due process, it suggests that the public opinion matters and that we have a say.
I have a question, maybe you can help me with this, Why?
Why do the council give the public the impression that we have a say when clearly it’s a lie?
Why put us through this fiasco? Is this not an abuse of power?
Tom Shortt, who is not in our ward, but feels the city is the city, stood up and spoke for us in the council meeting. He went out on a limb. We held up giant photos of the field taken from above, showing the trees and the grass and the beautiful, well kept old houses in the area. Our elected respresentatives could have said something, they could have backed him up.
Nobody.  Nothing.


You could have heard a pin drop. I felt for him. We cringed in the public gallery where we sat speechless, you see the public are entitled to their say. But this is a dictatorship, plain and simple.
This begs many questions, the first being why have we elected these representatives? Now coming into their second year of office what have they done in this area? These are the same people who fought like cats and dogs over the bus lane. Why? Because the nice folk of O’Connell Avenue are doctors, solicitors, people of influence. Not arty types, not people who create a vibrant community that contributes to the city. Our voices are unimportant, unwanted.
These are the same people who will fight tooth and nail to have car clamping done away with. They will shout and roar, and get personal, it’s like a créche but less mature.
Our votes are the same as everyone else’s. There are 474 registered electorate in this ward of Limerick.  Almost 200 of them signed an objection to building on Vize’s Field. That’s nearly half. We are all being ignored. Why did we vote for these people who tell us that that if we choose to live in Limerick city centre we can’t expect much.? That we don’t deserve anything.
The building that’s earmarked for this site is a part 8 development. The heads that be; builders etc will no doubt enlighten us on the ins and outs of this. Basically it’s the council building on council land. So they are applying to themselves for permission. Make any sense?
It hurt to sit there and hear about €300,000,000 being allocated for the regeneration of Limerick. We don’t get a penny. We aren’t looking for a penny, just to have our green site to look after it, to sit at a bench and let the dog run around. We want to see our elderly neighbours get out of their high-rise flats that are already there. What good will it do to squeeze in more flats? High density, inappropriate building, it goes against all the urban design guidelines. They are contradicting themselves. But I guess you can do that when you’re the law can’t you.


People worry about anti-social behaviour. So do I. I worry that, when Irish citizen are so brutally ignored, abused by their local authorities, what sense of civic pride does that instill?
The director of housing complains that the inhabitants of the Watergate flats burn their rubbish up against the walls of their flats. That’s a four storey building of social housing right? Maybe they do that because they can. They probably don’t care. How much will we care about our city when we have no say.
Council members applauded the work of festival organisers and plan to spend huge amounts of money on fireworks and parades, in an attempt to improve Limerick’s image on a national scale. They are papering over the cracks. What kind of a city garden we could create with the money wasted on any one of those events?
The director of housing said it would be impossible to build this building somewhere else. Impossible. He said that the people’s park is just around the corner and if it was good enough for him in the 70’s it can be good enough for us.


How hard can it be to look at some other sites in the area, more suitable sites like Hyde Road, Carey’s Road, the acreage behind the old factory on Lord Edward Street.
He said that they grassed over the site in goodwill to the residents and now we were being mean and taking advantage and wouldn’t want to give it back. Nobody said a word. Nobody supportedus in this. Do none of our local, elected members of council care about the feelings of their electorate? Clearly not.
The residents of Bowman Street, St. Joseph’s Street and the surrounding streets keep their homes in picture postcard condition. We are a mixed and vibrant community. We contribute to Limerick, we like it, we choose to stay here, we like it, for now.
Today this issue is being discussed at a closed meeting of ward councillors and the director of housing. We don’t have a say. Why would we? We just live here.  These councillors are out of touch with reality. They are not interested in how we feel. If they do not want our votes, fine, they won’t get them.

86 thoughts on “Heil Housing Director

  1. Well written Val.
    I don’t have the Limerick City Development to hand but having read it in the past I am sure this type of community, grassroots initiative is encouraged.
    Local people of all ages, beliefs, nationalities, income brackets, education met at Vizes field and happily chatted with their new found friends. Kids played together. It was a nice day. Many of us had other places to go to but chose to meet here. Why? What could have been people’s motivation other than to develop not only this green space but the community. If this is nt what Limerick is crying out for then I don’t know what is.

    A little more of this community initiative, fostered and encouraged by the council, might do a lot more good than huge re-building (regenertion) projects throughout the City.

  2. Jesus that’s a build cost of €345,000 per apartment! I’ve heard of the HSE spending €200K on turning a bungalow into a health centre but a build cost, build cost, of €345K per unit is ludicrous.

    I’d appeal to the highest court in the land… Live Line.

  3. The big question would be: WHY? Surely the council have more than enough buildings, and even if they didn’t there is enough empty office space in the city (the DELL facility must have plenty of usable space). Why would they want to build on a green field, when open space is always at such a premium in any city. You would think in today’s age where environment is so much to the fore, add in the ‘Smart Economy’ and logic would say do not build when you can reuse, or at the very least rebuild on a brownfield site.

    Good luck to you all, I trust the council will come to its senses and decide to retain an open space in a city which is lacking in public amenities.

  4. It illustrates something I keep saying. Councillors have no power. They’re all trying to get little favours for their constituents and they’re afraid toi annoy the city officials by opposing something like this. They’re all spineless.

    Time for a personal caampaign highlighting the contradictions between their public utterances and their actual behaviour.

    Take Joe Leddin, for example. A spineless jellyfish, whose only concern is representing his neighbours and friends. This man is a Labour councillor, for God’s sake. Labour! What kind of socialist is on the side of privilege and power? This kind: Joe Leddin. Write to him. Call him a hypocrite. Expose him.

    Pat Kennedy. A useless time-server who shouldn’t be elected to the committee of a golf club, never mind the city council.

    The list goes on. Name and shame.

  5. Link to Limerick City Draft Development Plan.

    http://www.limerickcorp.ie/Planning/LimerickCityDraftDevelopmentPlan2010-2016MaterialAmendmentstoDraftPlanSecondDisplay/

    One of the City Council’s stated policies;

    Policy LBR.1
    It is the policy of Limerick City Council to ensure that Limerick’s landscape, biodiversity and recreational facilities are preserved and enhanced, and that the overall combined potential and value of the network of open spaces and related assets within the City is recognized, retained and enhanced.

    It’s worth reading most sections of the Development plan to find areas where the retention of community green areas and trees is encouraged. It is my understanding that a development cannot go against the Development plan. For example the trees could not be cut down.

    On a seperate matter, if building should proceed on this site then a safety plan will need to be drawn up by the builder and include for access route for a fire tender to site. The design is such that scaffolding and possibly materials will need to encroach on the pavement and the road thus narrowing it further than it already is. Existing parking spaces could be restricted to allow vehicular movement which would be hard to enforce with deliveries and tradespeople coming and going. But my main point is that I do not see how a fire tender could access site witht the restricted access. Even stopping on Bowman street and attending a fire from there would be difficult.

  6. @ Bock…I heard that Leddin will be the preferred 2nd candidate for Labour in the next general election(!)

    Anyone with an hour to spare should have a glance at the minutes of the council meetings that are publicly available on the limerick city website. Plenty of time spent on approving conferences for the councillors to attend…

  7. @Val

    what happened the other article that you wrote on this?

    I came back from Cork early on Sunday to see the situation for myself. I noted both Kieran O’Donnell (Fine Gael TD) and Joe Leddin (Labour candidate in the forthcoming election) attended. I only looked around for a few minutes and didn’t chat with anyone and then went away so I didn’t see any other local politicians.

    As I said in a comment on the article which disappeared, this project is very advanced. But perhaps it is at a stage where it can be stopped? I’m still not sure if it should be, but am open to persuasion. Were the councillors lobbied before the meeting? Did it actually go to a vote? Has the decision been made?

    I walked around the Phase 1 part of the Vizes Court development and noted that the grounds around it have been poorly maintained since it was opened two years ago.

  8. It’s worth noting that Joe Leddin (Labour) championed the Limerick Boat Club fiasco also. Actually, 15 of the 17 councillors supported him in the rezoning of the site, and the de-listing of the buildings, and the planning application itself. In my view, that saga told much about the calibre of the local representative that we have. Incidentally, all of the south side ones, i.e those who represent the area around Vizes Field, including the current Mayor (Maria Byrne, Fine Gael) were among that 15. Thankfully, the plan was struck down by An Bord Pleanála. What I’m trying to ascertain is whether there is a possibility to stop the Vizes Court Phase 2 development. I don’t know enough about it to say that it should be stopped, but the situation is not clear at the moment vis a vis what can be done.

  9. I may have missed some of the above in a previous blog and ignore if the following has been written before. Prepare now for Bord Planala by gettin g the services of an engineer and a solicitor. This can be defeated on environmental impact grounds. Traffic surveys, street widths, school proximity, projected intake to schools in the locality, danger of increased traffic flows, footpath widths, sewage, wheelchair and disabled access. All of the above issues are very pertinent in that vicinity that they may well work to your advantage. I can’t recommend and engineer or lawyer but someone will and it may do so in their own interest as they also may be near residents. Joseph’s Street is already a tight fit with the volume of traffic it takes.

  10. Val – city and county councillors are always moaning about having no power, yet they won’t exercise the power they have. They sit back like pet pigs and let the likes of your friend Mr Lehane spoon-feed them any kind of shit. They are so addicted to the beloved ‘letter acknowledging representations’ that they allow officialdom to make all the decisions, they’ll just turn up for the wine and cheese at the launch party. Why not run a single-issue candidate in your ward the next time to highlight the community’s displeasure at the way you have been treated? If your candidate simply asks for the No 3 preference voteh s/he’ll get in. That’ll get the attention of the sitting members.

    Nuts

  11. I was under the impression that Tomas Hannon, a labour county counciller was in the running as Jan O`Sullivan`s running mate in any future election for the dail. I may be wrong here, but i do think that Joe Leddin has burnt his bridges with a lot of the labour people in the Limerick area.

  12. Disgusted at the City Council but Fairplay to Tom! and… fairplay to the picnicers, big turnout!
    On the day I had a massive domestic row – which I breifly managed to drive past the picnic in a small blue car. Anyway, thats about as good as it got unfortunately.

    I see what you’re saying about representation for people on O’Connell Avenue but not 100 yards backwards. Perhaps the ‘Social Inclusion’ unit needs to be involved – because clearly due to the fact that you do not fit into a politically sensitive group you are being denied fair representation. I mean… there is
    1. Travellers
    2. Lawyers, doctors, politicians friends, friends of the council manager
    3. People from disadvantaged areas – I dunno the usual Moyross / St Marys Park – I mean at least i HOPE they get a voice
    4. A developer with a simple request for €10million from the City Council.
    Ordinary people asking for feck all just don’t cut it it seems.
    I’ve a mind to protest against this dictatorship at City Hall with me hand drawn sign and give out information to local people that they aren’t actually represented by their councillors. Mind you I am not nice enough to disregard the fine for littering which a nice man (city council employee – he is actually nice) with a beard hands out to people with fliers in the city centre.
    Here’s the guy to contact about social inclusion anyway:
    Niall Flaherty
    Social Inclusion Officer
    Housing – Social Inclusion Unit
    Phone: (061) 407328
    email: nflaherty@limerickcity.ie
    I hope they have the good grace to accept complaints from middle class people! If / when they turn their nose up (over the phone I suppoe) you can point out their own words – directly from the website.
    “The SIU’s vision is that “Limerick City Council will become a leading organisation in developing and implementing sustainable policies based on equality which empower the citizens of Limerick to participate fully in society from an economic, social and cultural perspective”.

  13. @Poll Dorcha, unfortunately as this is a Part 8 it can’t be appealed to An Bord Pleanala. It seems very peculiar and evidently by design that planing applications by a local authority can’t be appealed to an outside entity. In fact one council department applying to another for permission to do something would seem to be the type of situation most in need of an ability to appeal to some external entity in order to avoid the appearance or possibility of corruption and poor decision making.

  14. in that case, Daniel, it’s up to the councillors to vote on the Part 8 planning application?

    So, was there a vote yesterday or is there still time to lobby the councillors?

  15. I think the councillors can vote to overturn a part 8 but they don’t have to vote to accept one. And it would seem and sound like the cllrs are disinclined to do so, in part for the reasons mentioned by Bock that they don’t want to get on the wrong side of the city management as it is the the permanent city not the elected reps that are in charge.

  16. @val. Vizes filed is a delightful little place. I saw it for the first time last week, following your post.
    It is criminal to try to take away this little green area and build on it. I loved the trees. These are not young trees. They must be there at least 20 years.
    Any person who proposes a development on this field, should not in my view hold a job in any public organization. Why not leave well enough alone. Why destroy something that has beauty and value to the local community.

    The local candidate idea is a good one. I would give it no 1 vote. You need more publicity on this.
    You should contact local Labour HQ (Mechanics Institute, I think) and tell them you will run a canditate if it is not stopped.
    Organize a “Frank McCourt” walk with emphasis on Vizes field.
    Don’t give in. Don’t give in.

  17. Bock, me old buddy,

    If you ever actually do sober up for long enough, you might be compelled to reply to me perhaps…

    I know why no-one else supported Councillor Tom Shortt’s representation on your proposal to keep Vizes Court as a green space.
    It was because its a crap idea.
    Who is going to look after it?
    Facepainters?
    Food critics?
    Internet bloggers?
    Culturally aware self-promoting Glitterati?

    I don’t think so.

    Do you expect that Ireland’s citizen’s revenue tax-take should pay for the upkeep of a public field, for you and your good-time buddies?
    Will you scare away the ones buying junk off the shady dealers in Vizes field at night and clean up the rubbish thrown into the deepest recesses of the field. Because that is what it is – just a field.
    Inside every single on of the “concerned citizens” who have an issue with urban development and job creation, there is an English landlord of yore, or at worst a fat wealthy cute hoor of a farmer, screaming to get out, or at best, an ill-informed, misrepresented, under educated graduate, blow-in, snob.
    Snobs to change. Snobs to difference. Snobs to anything that threatens your little carefully constructed worlds.

    I know why from the public gallery no public mouths uttered support when the representation was made.
    Because they all knew too well it was, at its shallow core, a crap idea that shrivelled like a wilted flower, exposed to the harsh light of day, once aired in public.
    And you described it “A dictatorship”?

    I don’t think so.

    If anyone among you had the balls to speak up, they would have done so.
    So don’t blame the “dictatorship.” Blame yourselves for not having the gumption to pit your wits against the council.
    But maybe none of you are solid enough to familiarise yourselves sufficiently with “due process” as you put it, so as to be able to put up a decent fight for something that you have convinced yourselves that you believe in, instead of putting up a boring old jaded performance, complaining and moaning and whinging to anyone willing to listen to win the popular vote.
    You see the reality is that, you don’t really believe in this “great cause” of Vizes field because you haven’t thought it through.
    And you are not willing to face up to what any of the real implications are, in taking such a stance, and making so much “noise” and actually possibly winning your case for your cause (and I’ll let you in on a little secret here – you won’t win – you types (yes – types) never do, because you haven’t the balls or the wit for it).

    You said in your write-up (above) on the day out in Vizes field that “We are a mixed and vibrant community. We contribute to Limerick, we like it, we choose to stay here, we like it, for now.”

    “For now”?

    When the independant living units for the elderly are built on that field, you can fuck off if you like.
    And we’ll see for how long more you people “contribute” to Limerick.
    Do you think you deserve something for contributing to Limerick? A field all of your own perhaps?
    I don’t think anyone would really miss you and your buddies in the neighbourhood at any rate.

    I live in the immediate area – you probably don’t – let’s face it – or at least you don’t intend on staying here too long anyway.
    I understand due process – you obviuosly don’t.
    I know what happens when blow-ins like you and your entourage start kicking up a fuss over what you “feel” you “need” and “are entitled to” – you get brushed under the carpet at the next opportunity.

    You are what is wrong with the Ireland.
    You are a new age imperialist.
    You will never have any real support.
    You are evil.

    There isn’t a single one with a backbone among you – You’d need a dirty lawyer or an engineer for that – Poll Dorcha.

    I felt that you all needed a little bit of balance in this “forum”
    Just a bit of free information.
    Y’know fella.

    Sincerely yours,

  18. No. 21 post is an elephantine display of monumental ignorance. The author of this diatribe would do well to look at the name of the writer of the piece. Or maybe he just doesnt like you Bock.

  19. Charlie, Charlie, Charlie – do you mind if I call you Charlie? When you say you live in the immediate area, are we talking on a galactic scale? People pushing the people in power to have some sense is evil in your mind? Really?
    So, tell me, what do you contribute to Limerick, Chuck – do you mind if I call you Chuck? If you want to come on to a forum and liberally abuse the host, then it is encumbent upon you to qualify your remarks. Go on, Chuck, give it a blast.

  20. Charles.
    So apart from calling everyone bloggers, snobs, drunks and blow ins. What is your suggestion? Give people with local ties more voting rights? Shall we just fuck off is that all you’re asking, just fuck off and let you run things the way you want to?
    If it wasn’t for you pesky kids… etc
    Oh and I think the due process, ignorance of, is a fair point. This Vizes field issue is only a small part of the bigger picture that people don’t know how they are not being represented locally. We’d better let everyone know whats really going on and what the due process really is. Good call on that aspect. I used the word aspect, I’ll just have to learn to live with being in blow in snob eh ;)

  21. By the way, Bock is evil. He once robbed my pint and set fire to my jacket… and I was wearing the jacket at the time. Oh, by the way, he didn’t write this post. Do you still disagree with it, given that pertinent information?

  22. Bock, I take it you know who it is? Did they use a computer that gave away their identity?
    Fucking idiot.. “Charles Jackson”. Is this what we’re voting for?!!

    I reckon it’s Willy. The incompetence and arrogance comes through. He can’t even read who wrote the article. “Charles”, why shouldn’t people be entitled to a green space outside their doorstep, instead a block of high rise flats? Is it too much to ask for in your small, uninformed, dull mind?

  23. Hmmm, what i’ve seen of so called ‘blow-ins’ around Ireland is that they tend to bring an objective eye to things. Untainted by local politics and biases, and often with valid opinions based on wider experience. To ignore is to deprive oneself of broader (and frequently well balanced) perspectives.

    I suggest the land wouldn’t be littered with so many ghost estates if some of those ‘blow-ins’ had been listened to.

  24. @ everyone, thanks for the support on this but let’s keep to the pint and not add fuel to what’s-his-names tantrums. There are some decent heads in local politics so lets not tar them all with the same brush, just remember the numbers, 200 people at least in support versus one illiterate?
    Constructive comments are all welcome.

  25. The views expressed by Charles provide a useful insight. His attitudes are straight from the 1950s when people knew their place and didn’t question authority. I imagine the elderly ladies I spoke to who grew up in the old lanes will appreciate being called blow-ins, as will the long-established residents who turned out to participate in the event.

    I agree with Val. There are some decent local politicians, and clearly, the arrogance and dismissiveness of Charles’s comment narrows the field considerably. I stand over my opinion that they are too much in fear of the officials who can throw them goodies from time to time.

    I think we can rule Willie out this time.

    FME — I”m just going on deduction, not technology.

  26. Charles, (post 21), how can I say this in a nice way. What planet are you living on? Cap’n P is right to ask, if it is on a galactic scale that you live in the area. I dont think its possible that you could be the same species.

    If you do in fact live in the immediate area, you and I are neighbours. And have been for a long time. Many other neighbours of yours, many for over 30 years, are also in favor of keeping this green space.

    In an effort to educate you, here are just two of the clarifications resulting from you ill informed and moronic post.

    1. Who will pay for the upkeep? It is already been maintained by the city. As are all the green spaces in the city. By your lodgic why have any green spaces in the city at all? If that is your logic, why dont you just stay in doors and the rest of this neighbourhood and can get on with having a community.

    2. The reason why no one in the gallery spoke is because we would be ruled out of order and forced to leave. We are not a bunch of yobs. We are familiar with due process, and respect it. Have you not been to a council meeting before? Again, I hope you are finding this educational.

    Finally, you talk about, “blow ins” “snobs” “types”. If you do live in the sourounding houses to vizes fiels, it is you who is in the minority. You sound like a begruding fart, lacking an onze of civic pride. Regeneration is taking place across the city, and you willing to let your neighbourhood degenerate.

    Your nieghbour,
    Eug

  27. Sent the earlier link RE. Vizes field to the founder of Guerilla gardening in the UK
    Hope you find this it helpfull.
    Richard_001 @robinredhead2 Look at http://www.nurseryrowpark.org/. Guerrilla gardening played a small part of many other activities in saving this park

  28. @ Mary thanks fro that link, I agree fully with geurilla gardening, we will do a planting day soon, maybe will see you there

  29. Jesus, Charles, you come across as a horrible human being. Are you feverishly wanking and spitting venom at the computer screen, getting off on the “power” and feeling utter shame and disgust towards yourself? Because you should. I lived in the Joseph Street area, I grew up spending a lot of time in Lynches with my family and friends, and there are many, many people left in the area that were there when I was little. It certainly is not too much to ask for these elderly people to have a little bit of green in an otherwise concrete forest. It is a community that has changed and grown over the years, and Vizes is an accessible little plot of land for these people to enjoy. What difference does it make to you? You’re obviously sitting in your palace eating caviar off the backs of the underpriveleged and underrepresented… mind your monacle doesn’t fall in. Val, well done, you have a valid point, Bock, I think Charles is totally gay for you.

  30. Seems to me that some of those against the development would make a fine lynch mob.No regard whatsoever for our senior citizens who might like to live in a nice comfortable dwelling in a secure environment.No mention of the fact that this area had been built on in the past and it was always intended to build again and provide badly needed housing for our people.I do not live in the area but i do know it reasonably well and i believe it is essential that the project go ahead.It is significant that all?(i cannot be certain of this but as i have not heard any councillor from the area speak against it i a assume they are).cllrs representing the area are in favour and as far as i know only one cllr spoke against it and the cllr that spoke against is only a wet day in the council and would have plenty to concern him in his own area where people, many of them aged are forced to live in appalling conditions and might be very glad to be housed in the proposed new units.The attack on cllrs Kennedy and Leddin who appear to be singled out smacks of fascism and is quite shocking.Pat Kennedy has represented this part of limerick for many years and i am certain that he and the other cllrs will not be fazed by the bully boy tactics employed and will press ahead with this badly needed project that will provide some badly needed accommodation as well as some employment for the people of limerick.

  31. Fascism, did you say?

    When did it become fascism to ridicule elected politicians?

    If anything, it seems to me that fascism happens when you can’t criticise politicians. No?

  32. Hi Shocked,
    Not all those in favour of retaining the green area as a community resorce are against the provision of adequate housing for the elderly.
    Being in favour of one does not necesarily preclude the other.
    The Council needs to be open to new ideas and developments on the ground and consider other locations for the construction of ‘badly needed accomodation’.
    If the council officials and the local community were to engage in open and frank consultation a solution agreeable to all may emerge.

  33. The argument is being put out that the opposition is to housing the senior citizens, which is simply untrue. The flats are being built in the wrong place — that’s all.

    However, does everyone know what the City Council’s definition of a senior citizen is?

    Does Shocked know that an old person in this case is 55?

  34. Hey Shocked,ask any past pupils of CBS Sexton Street about bully boy tactics and fascism. Get my drift,chief? By the way,how do you know it was always intended to build on it again? ” I dont live in the area but I know it reasonably well”. Youre exposed by your own stupidity. You and “Charles Jackson” are indeed very well matched.

  35. @Shocked, as reiterated by other commentators here, the type of proposal is irrelevant. If it were to be a shopping centre, a swimming pool, a casino or strip club we would feel the same. Since when is wanting a bit of green space a crime?
    This area has many aged residents and they enjoy a quiet life as much as possible, this new development disregards the quality of their lives for a start, nobody asked them how they feel. Vizes Court phase one, which while ticking a box in terms of providing accommodation for the elderly, is a failure in terms of comfortable living, but you know this area inside out so you will no doubt have your research done on that. These old people lost their garden and all access to their neighbours, don’t they deserve something simple like a park bench, some flowers?
    There is a development going in on Lord Edward Street for the elderly under the regen scheme, should this entire part of the city be given over to sheltered housing? Isn’t it a bit unbalanced? This half acre site is ot the only piece of land in the area suitable for building.

  36. Since you mention lies, could I point out that nobody is trying to take control of the land. In fact, the campaign is intended to save this land for public use. But you knew this perfectly well, didn’t you?

  37. shocked, if you look at this map you will see that the area that was built on for phase 1 was not previously built on. You would also see that this is 29 apartment where there was once, what?, a dozen cottages? that’s in addition to the apartments built for phase 1. The fact is that the green space amenity that was created by phase 1 for use by those in phase 1 will now be lost to those people in phase 1 as they will be hemmed in by phase 2.

    http://maps.google.ie/?ie=UTF8&ll=52.656348,-8.630201&spn=0.002112,0.004136&t=h&z=18

  38. I am rather appalled that, while many of those who support the green space initiate haven’t showered themselves in glory, the attitude of the opposition is that the objectors ‘shut up’ and ‘disappear’. It would not surprise me at all if these same people believed in ‘soft landings’, ‘never ending booms’, ‘positivity’ and that every construction job is sacred.

  39. @val. The Peoples Park. The Director of Housing says the peoples park was good enough for himin the 70’s. He has conveniently forgotton that the corpo decided to sell a piece of this park to private developers-in a very dubious deal behind closed doors. This particular piece of the park is no more that a few hundred yards from vizes field. With proper planning it could have had an entrance onto Joseph Street.
    We should not have to go back to the seventies. Neither should we have to submit to 1970s people who by virtue of climbing the protected public service ladder now deem themselves high up enough to tell ordinary people what should be good enough for them.
    The corpo must take a large share of the blame for Limerick problems . It has failed Limerick.
    Its Housing Policy has been central to its failure.

  40. I don’t believe Limerick City Council — or any other local authority — has ever set up an independent review procedure to assess how well its activities have succeeded and how well its staff have performed in their design choices and allocation of housing. Independent, I stress. The councillors are not detached from the process because they rely on council officials for day-to-day favours.

  41. The People’s Park and Vizes Field are both green spaces with trees, but that is where the similarities end.

    Vizes field offers the potential for local people of all ages and backgrounds to play, relax, socailise in a green area which is unique in that it does not have through traffic. If my kids were younger they could stroll over to Vizes field and meet their friends at any time. I likewise could pop over on a sunny day and meet the locals.

    The people’s park attracts people from a wider area. Even people using the playground are often from out of town. My kids may make friends there today but never meet them again. It has problems with anti-social behaviour which discourages many from going there.

    The point is Vizes court green space has the potential to offer a social space rarley seen in other parts of the City. The peoples Park is a beautiful place and a credit to the Parks dept. but it serves a different purpose.

  42. What an arrogant old windbag the director of housing is. The people’s park was good enough for him in the 70’s was it? Well guess what old fart, it’s 2010. If we wanted a decent broadband service, would he say.. ‘well telephones were good enough for me in the 70’s.’ If we wanted decent roads, would he say, ‘there were no dual carriageways in my day.’ In fact he might say, ‘what do ye people need cars for at all, most people didn’t have a car in my day’. Fuck that.

    Val, you are being perfectly reasonable not wanting a block of high rise apartments outside your door step. The arrogance of some people is amazing, questioning your right to even protest at this.

    @Shocked. I’m shocked at the shite you’ve come out with. Important to stick to the facts is it?
    “What right have you to lay claim to public property and seek to hold up a badly needed development”? Is that a fact is it? I think you’ll find that’s an ad hominem remark. How about sticking to the facts yourself Shocked? Lay claim, my arse.
    Will I tell you “what right” Val has, Shocked? Because she fucking lives there and it will affect her for a long time to come. What right do you have to question someone’s right to objection and protest? What kind of mentality do you have at all? Answer: see Bock’s response to Charles..
    ” attitudes are straight from the 1950s when people knew their place and didn’t question authority.”
    No wonder the country is in the state it’s in with people like yourself.
    Don’t question anything Shocked. Take any ole shite that’s dished up to you and be appalled at anyone who refuses to do the same. Well done. On your fucking bike.

  43. The City Council should be asked how this development came about. Was there any consultation between officials, or councillors or any of the local stakeholders, such as the residents? If not, then they have neglected to do their duty. Was it a case of the Council needing sites for social housing, and deciding that Vizes Court is a good place, so let’s go ahead and do it?

    Were there any submissions to the Council regarding the proposed development or indeed Phase 1 in the past. Answers need to be got to these questions.

    And we need somebody to tell us where the issue stands now. Is it a fait accompli? What’s the relevance of the Part 8 application?

    Until these questions are answered, we are going nowhere with it. Everything else is just a rant.

  44. FME heaps vulgar abuse,probably because he or she can only debate by using that sort of languuage the poor person is probably sick ,needing help should remember that children use the internet and they might conclude that the sort of vulgarity displayed is normal and not the product of a sick demented person in need of help.Val says the 10 million euro came from the mouth of a councillor,whether or it did or did not its untrue,a LIE so TAKE IT DOWN ITS NOT TRUE if you want the truth and justice TAKE DOWN THE LIES.

  45. As some people visiting this thread seem unable to behave like mature adults, comments will now be held in moderation for review before they are published.

  46. Shocked is right. FME is demented. Demented from listening to horseshit from bullshittin gum flappers. Oh the vulgarity.
    And there was me thinking it was rather nice considering the crap “What right have to lay claim to public property”. What reality do you inhabit Shocked? If a person objects to a development of flats outside their door, they are not laying claim to the property, they are opposing the development is all.
    Next you’ll be calling Val Julius Caesar, and saying Veni, vidi, vici.
    Val the conqueror!! All hail Val.
    I think it was indeed Val that said, put a medal on their chest and they will march to their death, not Napoleon. ” What right have you to lay claim to public property”… Where did anyone lay claim to public property Shocked? It’s not true.
    TAKE IT DOWN IF YOU WANT TRUTH, LIFE, LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL .. or else I’m telling me mammy on you.

  47. I’m just after seeing the piece in the Leader in which it is reported that the director of housing said that the development couldn’t be moved to a different site because the project was in the late stages of the planning process. Really? I thought that the deadline for observations had just closed the other week. I mean why bother with that part of the process if you are going to ignore peoples input. Why not just roll in with the diggers and start building instead of this pathetic fig-leaf democracy.

  48. @Neville Gawley. I though that the late stages of the planning process used to be best for making changes particulary if you had a brown paper bag filled with notes.
    Maybe the objectors don’t have brown paper bags.
    No stone has been moved yet. This can be stopped.

  49. The planning process includes an option for members of the public to object. It also provides for an appeal to an Bord Pleanala. Therefore the director of housing has no business stating that the project can’t be changed, since the statutory process has not yet been completed. I think this indicates an attitude of mind that has little respect for the legal safeguards written into the planning acts. He appears to be assuming that the process is only a formality.

  50. Bock you describe Joe Leddin as a “spineless jellyfish”you describe Pat Kennedy as a “useless time server” you provide no evidence.Kennedy has enjoyed the confidence of the electorate for near enough to 40 years.Leddin has agreed with city hall on occasions and has taken them on and beaten them on occasions(the site on edward street for example),What about Long, Scully,Byrne,Fahey and MCLoughlin.You conclude by saying” the list goes on name and shame” what is your view on these cllrs who go before the people every 5 years unlike yourself who sits in judgement basking in the shroud of anonymity.

  51. Shocked — My shroud of anonymity is no deeper than your own. If a day ever comes when I can’t ridicule politicians, I’ll up sticks and leave this country but I will not be instructed by you what to say or do. Now get back to the subject at hand and do not attempt to shout me down because it will not work.

  52. Well Shocked here is a question for you. What kind of councillors would allow a section of The PEOPLES Park,so called because it belongs to ALL of the people of Limerick,to be given over to a developer to build apartments?

  53. Just to get the discussion back on track, this topic is about preserving the open space in Vize’s Field for the benefit of all the people in the locality. In future, if anybody disagrees with a number or a statistic, they are free to contradict the statement and put forward their own figure instead. They are not permitted to accuse other contributors of lying simply because they disagree with them. Any such comments will not be published.

    Show a little respect.

  54. OK Limerick Leader is reporting that 20 people signed a petition against the development whereas I believe it is 200. That needs to be corrected! Also see that there are arguments circulating on politics.ie that the plans in dispute have been known about for 5 years, also that there is only one objector?! (presumably Val?!)
    A lot of contradictions. All I can say is look into things for yourself and don’t believe the first thing you read. My own opinion is that certain people want to stay on the good side of the city council – overall I am not impressed with the wording being used in local paper write ups on this.

  55. @Joanne, the Leader correctly stated that there are almost 200 signatures on a petition, printed Wed Sept 29th, where did it state that there was only one objector?
    We are a committee of residents, there were 18 individual objections and one from An Taisce, the National Trust who are making a submission to have the site preserved for its historical relevance

  56. Bock calls for a little respect! thats what we all want,i posted a comment and it doesnt appear is it because it differs from your own view?I asked that those using bad language be asked to refrain as it is insulting.We all have our own ideas and we should be able to have them debated here wihout sensorship.I suggested some people were lying when they said the project was costing 10 million when in fact it it costing 4 million.Val said said the figure of 10 million came”from the mouth of a councillorShe does not say who the councillor is and even if she did that would not mean its true.Iam all for green spaces and i am hoping that the vizes field project will leave as much space as possible for the residents to enjoy,however it is essential that sheltered housing as planned go ahead as soon as possible so that our citizens can enjoy what appears to be a very good and well thought out housing project.I am in agreement with tony c that planners should not have allowed building on a portion of the peoples park.It should be remembered that cllrs do not have any power when it comes to planning and perhaps its time this was changed to give the cllrs a greater say.Finally bock you have not answered my question in relation to the hardworking cllrs Kennedy and Leddin who seem to enjoy huge public support,nor have you answered my query in relation to mayor Byrne cllrs Scully,Long.Fahey and MCLoughlin who also represent this area or could it be the case that you are waging a war against Pat Kennedy and to a lesser extent Joe LEDDIN

  57. Your comment doesn’t appear because it accuses somebody of lying. That is unacceptable. You are entitlled to disagree with somebody but you are not entitled to question another commenter’s bona fides. It’s up to you. If you want your comments published, you will respect this.

    People have been asked to moderate their language, but I presume you’re an adult, so get over it. You’ve heard worse, I’m sure, any night of the week, in your local pub.

    Let me remind you that you don’t set the agenda here. You made your point about the other councillors and that’s that/ You will not interrogate me.

    Finally, nobody disputes the need for sheltered housing, but this is the wrong building in the wrong place. The proposal is poorly thought-out and will be a disaster for the area, in my opinion.

  58. @Val – no Limerick Leader didn’t say one person objected that was info circulating on politics.ie.
    Limerick Leader online has only the story from 9th Aug up, thats the only oe that comes up from a search of ‘Vizes’ – which gives 20 people as having signed a petition I didn’t look at the date I assumed it was the most recent news. I could have sworn I read the number 20 from the Leader in Dunnes last night, should have bought it but didn’t, I may be mistaken.

  59. Last weeks Limerick Post article appears to be the source of the misunderstanding about there being one objector and the also that work was about to begin on the development.

  60. If someone says a project will cost 10 million when in fact it costs 4 million is that not a lie? How will the provision of 29 sheltered units be a disaster?Please can we have a definition of what a disaster really is and then what you think it is.Ibelieve you tend to exaggerate.

  61. I repeat. You are entitled to disagree with a figure given. You will not accuse the person of lying. Those are the ground-riles. Abide by them or not. It’s up to you.

  62. Hoping this doesn’t offend Shocked. But I am curious as to her/his motives.

    “however it is essential that sheltered housing as planned go ahead as soon as possible so that our citizens can enjoy what appears to be a very good and well thought out housing project.”
    I don’t buy that.
    There are plenty of other more suitable sites, as Val has said in the post – “How hard can it be to look at some other sites in the area, more suitable sites like Hyde Road, Carey’s Road, the acreage behind the old factory on Lord Edward Street.”

    What’s your involvement Shocked? What are your motives? You’ve stated you don’t live there. Most of the people that do are not happy about it. You’re just a concerned citizen of some as yet unknown older citizens and you don’t care about the already long established locals’ needs? Is that right, is it? I don’t buy it.

    You also say above:
    “Seems to me that some of those against the development would make a fine lynch mob.No regard whatsoever for our senior citizens who might like to live in a nice comfortable dwelling in a secure environment”. Have some respect yourself. What kind of response could be expected other than calling it bull.. A Lynch mob is it? I see photos in the post of people having a picnic, having fun. Get off your high horse. Respect is earned, not demanded. “No regard whatsoever for our senior citizens”.. There are senior citizens in the photos above.. take a better look!

  63. I have no desire to interrogate anyone,you made statements re Leddin and Kennedy and i asked you to back them up. I asked what you thought about the other cllrs who seem to be in favour including the mayor Maria Byrne and i find it odd that they have not come in for criticism.Is this not a bit strange?.Heard the tail end of a discussion on local radio this morning.Was not impresssed by the lady who represented? the group opposed,though as i said i only caught the tail end of it to be fair.Rang the station to see if i could get a recording of it and they told me it would be going out tonight at 12 30 and i will listen in.I am prepared to listen and debate i am not prepared to be abused.I am not fazed or intimidated by the bad language i just felt you might try to do something about it.As you find ok i might resort to it myself if i feel i have lost the debate ha ha only joking i will not pepper my comments with crude vulgar words that only give offence.

  64. @shocked – you need to enquire a little more about councillors and planning – they have a huge legitimate role but they don’t exercise it. They adopt the development plan. they approve land-use zonings. The approve protected structures, even though one associated with this controversy didn’t seem to be aware of that.
    They approve developments by their own local authority, which is the point at issue here – do they represent people’s views and wishes, or kiss the arses of builders and publicly-paid officials.
    In relation to the People’s Park sell-off, Councillors must approve any land sale by a local authority, so lay the blame where it lies please.
    Their illigitemate role in planning is to perpetuate the myth that by a mysterious process of influence they have a role in each individual decision and thus win loyalty, of a sort, and votes, where sort doesn’t matter. They seem happier in that role.

    Nuts

  65. If a person tells lies i cant call him or her a liar? I have asked why the other 5 cllrs inc the mayor were not criticised and i have not got an answer. Is there a vendetta against Kennedy and Leddin?.It looks to me as if this is some type of mutual admiration society and .Vulgar language is to be condoned but questions about bocks attitude to other cllrs is dismissed is it any wonder he has had to go on p.ie where if someone asks a question they wont be told its not going to be answered.

  66. I will say this for you slowly one last time. If you disagree with a person’s figures, you are free to contradict them. It is not for you to call them a liar. It’s that simple. I’ve been very patient with you but that’s the end of the matter. No further discussion on it.

  67. Post 21: Why would Charles Jackson state that it is spineless to involve a lawyer and an engineeer in advising any objections to the Vizes Project? Why would he immediately state that such people would be dirty? Is this person for real? Fair play to him if he can live in this fantasy of his own creation.

  68. Hi guys, thanks for all the support and constructive remarks here. However the personal nature of some remarks isn’t helping the campaign and I’ve requested that comments be closed because the discussion is going off track.

Comments are closed.