Ireland is Your Country. Claim it Back.

I want to say only one thing.

This is your country.

It doesn’t belong to stooges for the Russian Mafia who happened to buy into crooked banks.

It doesn’t belong to the half-educated gobshites who made millions buying and selling land in the boom years.

It doesn’t belong to Bertie Ahern’s crooked cronies.

It doesn’t belong to Biffo.

It doesn’t belong to Yehudi Lenihan.

It doesn’t belong to the wide-boy spivs who bought bonds on the cheap and are now getting their profits thanks to this failed government.

This country does not belong to the Gordon Gekkos or the Arthur Daleys.

This country belongs to you.

Are you happy to let sick kids die so that Chelsea Football Club can buy more players?

Are you happy to watch your family step on board planes so that Peter Sutherland’s fellow board members in Goldman Sachs can sleep easy at night?

You did nothing to create this disaster.  That was Bertie Ahern and Charlie McCreevy and Brian Cowen.  That was Goldman Sachs and Fingers Fingleton and Seanie Fitz.

You did nothing to create this mess.

Ireland is your country.  It doesn’t belong to Roman Abramovich or his girlfriends.

Don’t let these vultures strip your country of everything we’ve worked for.

This is your country and don’t forget it.  Claim it back

Spread the word: Ireland is your Country.  Claim it Back.

Where’s your pride?

132 replies on “Ireland is Your Country. Claim it Back.”

Bock. The country belonged to Fianna Fail for the past 13 years-not to ordinary people. Fianna Fail enriched themselves and their friends and destroyed the country. Now they are double-destroying it trying to cling to the spoils of power.
It should never have belonged to gamblers, crooks or traitors, but that is who the electorate gave the country to.
Taking the country back is going to be a very difficult task. But you are right.
We have to start somewhere.

It’s like this: we either retreat into a world of complaint and moaning or we start to remember that this is our country and that it doesn’t belong to the crooks spawned by Haughey and Ahern.

The first step is waking up.

Spread the word. This is your country. Claim it back.


But people will get it the more they are excluded by design, provided they’re justified anger is not captured by some form of authoritarian populism.

The middle class is being abruptly and systematically shrunk and fewer and fewer people have a stake in the maintenance of the status quo.

Patience, grasshopper.

Bock, can I have your permisssion to borrow your graphic, I want to give it to a graphic designer friend and get bumper stickers made. I personnally have enough of this shit, it’s time to act.

The graphic on this post, Ciaran Fitzgerald, “where’s your fucking pride”, Ireland’s your country, claim it back

Is that your suggestion?

That was a question not a suggestion.

The question stands.

“This country belongs to you.”

Since when?

“It’s like this: we either retreat into a world of complaint and moaning or we start to remember that this is our country and that it doesn’t belong to the crooks spawned by Haughey and Ahern.”

“world of complaint and moaning”

Is that “whingin an moanin” & “suicide”?

I have not read the words “compliant” or “moaning” or “suicide” in the Constitution.

I agree entirely that the dirty money Mafia took control of this country under Haughey.

Let us not forget Fitzgerald and his Mafia.

There’s money a plenty there.

But apparently that’s clean money. Not dirty money.

Nothing like laundering your deaths.

Bock have you ever tried talking to a herd of sheep? It seem slaughter houses prefer sheep to pigs, the pigs attempt resistance.

Where are your so-called freedom fighters now when they are really needed? Forget the Brits, they didn’t cause this mess. This is a home-grown problem. A few well placed bombs should sort a lot of the mess out.

I think the bumper sticker idea is a positive one. Its a start.
@ Rich Banker
This country belongs to you.”

Since when?

Give me a date
Answer: 11th of October 2010

The real problem here is that we, “the plain people of Ireland”, don’t know how to protest. The farmers – now there’s a different story. When the unions call for a protest how many people turn up? Maybe if we could blame the Brits there would be some hope of animating the people but here we have exploitation on a grand scale by our own people and we sit on bar stools and bemoan our plight – and in two years’ time we’ll put the same fuckers back in power…
We need to enlist the old age pensioners, the unemployed, the homeless, the soon to be homeless (that should account for more than half the population) and take over Kildare Street with sleeping bags and blankets and sit it out until this shower of crooks call a General Election. It won’t happen but it’s what’s needed.

Well for a start I’m going to email everyone of these arseholes in government who had a hand it this fucking mess. I’m going to let each and everyone of these bastards know that it is my intention from this point on to make life as difficult for them as I possibly can. I will continue to bombard them with emails until they are as sick of me as I’m as sick of them.
It has been said that we as a Nation have a bad habit of putting up with too much shit and saying nothing. I believe this to be true, as I was one of those people.
Not any fucking more! Enough is enough!
My email campaign will be a start and from there I will verbally kick everyone of these bastards in the nuts every chance I get. God help the poor gobshite who calls to my door looking for my vote!
We need to mobilise and make our voices heard. This will get a lot worse before it gets any better, of this I’m sure we all agree. No doubt marches and protests against the slash and burn economic policy of the government will increase over the coming months. This is where we can make a difference. Let’s march and protest at every chance to let these fuckheads know how we feel.
Bock is right. This is our Country. This is my Country and I’m going to do all I can to take it back from these bastards!!!!
And as for the bondholders…………….they can just go and fuck themselves!!!!!

Is the ‘Republic of Ireland’ actually a Republic? No. That phrase in Irish law is merely an accepted translation of ‘Eire’. It is not a political definition.

A Republic was declared in 1916 and a New York born chancer promptly got into bed with the remains of the acendancy and the catholic church from 1937 onwards and formed a de facto theocratic oligarchy.

The Republic of Ireland was strangled by the founder of Fianna Fail and every subsequent Fianna Fail leader has prolonged this nonsense about Ireland being a Republic. If you don’t believe me consult O’Kelly on Irish Constitutional Law which is the authoritative source.

Then take a wander around Kings Inn, the organisation which ‘makes’ barristers in Ireland. Take a look at the route explained on their website to becoming a barrister (as long as you are an ‘approved’ person who has at least an M.A.).

You’ll soon realise how some notorious gobshytes in Irish politics carrying the title ‘barrister’ after their name don’t seem to know much about the law. It may also explain why notable alumni and honorary fellows of Kings Inn include such people as Edward Carson QC and Charles Haughey.

In short the Republic of Ireland as it stands has been a fraud since 1937. And senior FF people are well aware of it. Take a look at the board memberships of the Honorary Under-Secretary of Kings Inn. An Taisce. Irish Heritage. Those organisations which have people appointed to their board inevitably by Fianna Fail and who spend a rather large amount of time lobbying to preserve the old ascendancy mansions of Ireland, sometimes with the old members of the ascendancy still in them.

You don’t have to scratch very far beneath the surface of Irish public life to find the fraud. The diverted ‘Republic’.

And then remember that those who declared the Republic in 1916 were not your run of the mill Irish by any means. Some Protestant and/or not even born in Ireland.

I have my doubts whether the intelligence to understand this fraud is even there in sufficient depth in Ireland. No disrespect to those isolated intelligent and well educated people in Ireland but they will know what I mean when I say that Ireland cannot suffer decades of a brain drain without it having an effect.

As for revolution I have been warned by my grandfather who threw down his rifle because of his duties in the old IRA included guarding a bank while IRA officers walked past him and filled up bags full of cash (and not for the cause either). He had to go on the run over that and only was able to return home after an amnesty was declared. I’ve been warned by my father never to stand out in front of Irish people and attempt to speak for them because he did so in the 60’s in Ireland as a trade union representative and saw them shuffle their feet and look away when push came to shove and he needed their support to deal with their grievances. They wanted him to make their demands and take the rap when the boss was looking. He resigned in disgust and we went abroad.

In short I have my doubts whether Irish people have it in them to (a) recognise that we have traitors filling their pockets from Irish tax revenue and (b) whether they are sufficiently recovered enough from centuries of doffing the cap either to priests or protestants passing on horseback to actually say ‘no’ to it.

I thought my grandfather and father were overreacting to isolated incidents in their own lives and that surely people would not be that docile. Now I fear they were telling the truth and giving good advice.

Its a pity.

Ahoy there! Captain Con O’ S. As far as I am aware the United Nations recognises the 26 counties of Ireland as a Republic. Thats good enough for me. Also what’s this “Protestants” reference mean. Are you suggesting that protestants cannot be republicans or nationalists? Thats a bit narrow don’t you think.

Anyway the thread would appear to be about doing something positive to help win back our country from the gobshytes you mention above. Have you any suggestions?
Sorry to hear by the way that your family left Ireland in disgust. Unfortunately a lot more families will have to leave Ireland soon purely for financial reasons and thats a very sad fact as well.

@ Captain Con..was the ” not some Protestant/not even born here ” one of the men of ’16 or was he/they the cause of the present crapfest ? One is confused.
As to the original OP, from whom do you take back the country ? The plain people of Ireland live in fear of the middle class professions who are enabled by the political class to behave exactly as they please. Voting in a new government will leave the same class still in place. Just listen to the much maligned Liveline for half an hour…
” I went to see the teacher/ garda/solicitor/doctor/ priest/councillor, Joe… I have to say that the teacher/garda/solicitor/doctor/priest/councillor was great Joe ” Bollocks !! You’re scared shitless of him/them.

This country has yet to be owned by the ordinary people. There was never a golden era when the fruits of this country belonged to anything other than an elite. Sure, there was a lot of rhetoric wrapped up in the Proclamation and The 1937 Constitution but private proprty always had and has precedence over the public good. This might be fully understandable in Franco’s Spain where the power of the miltary and the RC Church suppressed the republic and the will of the majority of the people. In Ireland the development of a decent social democratic society has been twarted “democratically” and we regularly have voted for parties who have championed rampant free enterprise, in slightly different forms, to the detriment of social development and equity. No wonder we don’t have a meaningful Left, since all it required to beat them at the polls in the 30-80s, was some sort of FF, FG inspired red scare. Many in this city will remember the struggles Jim Kemmy had against the forces of the RC Church, the media and the other main stream parties, all of whom wanted the present inequitable status quo to prevail.

FME- sorry about the part that comes across as condescension. Its not meant to be anything other than plain speaking. I can’t help it if people don’t like the truth. I regret that truth but I can’t change it.

Long John Silver; ‘Ahoy there! Captain Con O’ S. As far as I am aware the United Nations recognises the 26 counties of Ireland as a Republic. Thats good enough for me. Also what’s this “Protestants” reference mean. Are you suggesting that protestants cannot be republicans or nationalists? Thats a bit narrow don’t you think.’

Quite the reverse. I’m saying that it took Protestants and those born abroad to kick the 1916 revolution into life. The 1916 only gained real public support when the Brits made the mistake of shooting the ringleaders. Oh- and on the issue of the United Nations recognising Ireland as a Republic could I have a link for that which shows its not merely a description and not a legal status. Because as I said in my post the 26 counties is not in Irish law nor has it ever been a Republic. The reference is there in O’Kelly, the foremost legal authority on Irish Constitutional Law. They show the ‘Republic of Ireland’ on the screen during a football match but that is just a translation of Eire legally. I kid you not. The 1937 Constitution very carefully avoids declaring the country as a Republic.

Lapsed Methodist; I think this might be some kind of instant record but I think we agree. The same people who always ran the country still do now except via a gombeen party system. I’d ask anyone here- what land changed hands after the 1916 rebellion or the 1937 constitution?

De Valera and co right down to Haughey and Ahern have prolonged this nonsense about Ireland being an independent Democratic Republic owned by the people of Ireland. Its rubbish. Why do you think that property rights were so fiercely laid out in the 1937 constitution?

Its a fraud and it always has been. I hate it and want to see it changed. Up to two years ago I used to call for a Second Republic – until I’d turned over enough rocks in Irish public policy to realise the first one was stillborn.

We’re still awaiting the first Republic. And we’ll be a long time waiting under either Fianna Fail, Fine Gael or their wedding partner the Labour Party.

Poll DorchaI I agree also with what you say. I well remember Kemmy and the DSP and met some of them when campaigning on the referendum trail door to door in the 1980s. Kemmy was a decent man and had a go at offering a real change.

Bock was asking for solid suggestions and I have to declare something in all honesty before I do so. I work in London now so I have to tell people that before I go making any suggestions. I’d happily come back and join any movement or try any leverage via the diaspora in London but I think there is just cause for a national strike and a campaign of civil disobedience. I say where I am because it would be misrepresentation if I didn’t declare that I am not in Ireland at the moment and expect others to take note of any suggestion I make without me being prepared to join.

We are in a kind of economic Land War again except this time we are up against people who may number between 300 and 500 ‘infuencers’ across Fianna Fail and the semi-state bodies. There are maybe 50 families responsible for the stranglehold on Irish politics and the corruption which sees our national resources in the form of state revenue being stolen to cover up a crooked bank which had no ATM’s and served only the financial ‘boyars’ of Ireland.

I don’t think marches in Dublin will do the trick as people hesitate to be hijacked by Eirigi or the SWP and so on. I think the civil disobedience and some of the tricks from Land War applied out in the constituencies (no violence) which served us well in the past might serve again.

To some extent this has already started with walkouts from public events attended by Ministers and FF TD’s being heckled in public. One demand. Election NOW and make the parties spell out what exactly they are going to do about the financial emergency.

No need to apologise Captain :) I’ve no problem with anything you say, except for:
“I have my doubts whether the intelligence to understand this fraud is even there in sufficient depth in Ireland. No disrespect to those isolated intelligent and well educated people in Ireland but they will know what I mean when I say that Ireland cannot suffer decades of a brain drain without it having an effect.”

Truth is a very subjective term. There may be a lack of information available and knowledge of political corruption within the general population, but I don’t believe there is anything preventing people from understanding this once they’ve been informed.
I don’t believe in brain drain either. Do you think your grandfather’s and father’s relatives were a left a little thicker due to their departure from these Isles? Obviously mass emigration is not good for our country, with our best and brightest forced to leave our shores for a better future but we will continue to educate our young here. There isn’t any brain drain to speak of. There is an employment/opportunity drain if anything, due to the corruption you speak of.

I’m afraid there is always a brain drain with large scale emigration. The ones with get up and go usually do just that.

I’m not saying this leaves a load of dummos in Ireland but I’m saying the pool of people in any given population with initiative and the ability to apply new solutions to old problems shrinks. Thats because the obvious solution to people like that is to go where they have more chance of being rewarded for their enterprise.

And finally, with respect, I would point out that Mary Coughlan is the Deputy Prime Minister. That is staggering. And she serves my point well because she would never reach the sort of station in life she has in Ireland if she hand’t been politically connected and (b) no threat in the cabinet to any Taoiseach.

I know there are intelligent people in Ireland but Ireland is just not a meritocracy. Its an oligarchy.

I’d agree with much of what the Captain says. De Valera started a lot of the rot. Notwithstanding Bock’s (tongue in cheek?) denigration of Michael Collins in another discussion thread here, Collins was the first man in 800 years to get the Brits off our backs. (I know such talk is deemed politically incorrect nowadays, but it is historically true.) A read of Tim Pat Coogan’s biographies of De Valera and Collins clearly set out the facts in these respects.

De Valera, more than anyone else, was responsible for the situation where in the words of Francis Stuart, a peasant subculture took over this State.

Poll Dorcha said, “There was never a golden era when the fruits of this country belonged to anything other than an elite.”

That’s the nub of it.

Any action taken to reclaim the country by/for the people must be informed by a coherent political philosophy.

Unfortunately, political or any other kind of philosophy seems to be beyond the ken of the majority of Irish people, as the Captain has implied. As I’ve said elsewhere in this forum, the Irish “education” system is destructive of any kind of rational thinking is fields such as politics, ethics and philosophy generally. It’s just a sausage machine designed to inculcate an authoritarian mindset whereby “the bosses are always right”.

As I’ve pointed out elsewhere in this forum, democracy in this State has failed miserably because the prevailing idea of democracy is fundamentally flawed.

One cannot have democracy without equality of income.

And the counterfeit idea of “equality of opportunity” (aka the American Dream) that’s thrown as a sop by the rich to the poor is just a stultifying mirage.

If my memory serves, In that humorous post regarding the poll on Ireland’s best you referred to him merely as a killer.

Please correct me if I’m wrong.

I stand corrected, Bock. I’ve looked at that post by you I was thinking of and that characterisation of Collins is not there. It was in somebody else’s post, which I can’t find now.

Sorry about that.

I recall reading a biography on Churchill which covered the Treaty negotiations and something caught my attention. Churchill was curious to meet Collins and invited him to dinner. After introductions and dinner along with some good wine Collins pulled out a wanted poster with his details on it that had been circulated in Dublin with a £100 reward posted on it and gave it to Churchill as a souvenir.

Churchill went off and rummaged about and produced a copy of the wanted poster the Boers had posted for him when he had escaped a Boer camp in that conflict as a young subaltern. The reward on that poster was £5.00.

There was some joking back and forth about ‘inflation’. By all accounts Churchill was personally impressed by Michael Collins and wrote to his family with personal condolences when he heard later of Collins’ assassination. He said publicly ‘Ireland has lost a great leader’. I’m aware Churchill is not to everyone’s taste but he was not a bad judge of character whatever his other faults.

Collins may have been a clerk before he became active in the struggle. But he was certainly a man of substance and a superb guerilla leader. I often think it would have been better had De Valera been shot and Collins survived.

King’s Bard (post no.1) asks “how can we get the greedy, power-hungry bastards out?” One way is the Internet, which Bock uses very effectively. It was the Internet that helped Obama into the White House. It can also bring about change here. Just last week an online campaign on the website prevented Bertie Ahern from appearing in Cashel, where he was due to address the Chamber of Commerce. The campaign site received over 23,000 hits, with hundreds of angry people from all over the country promising to protest in the town. In the end, Ahern didn’t dare show his face or try to spout his vomit-inducing waffle in Cashel. He stayed at home, in his cupboard. Let’s keep him there.

To people whose posts have been removed, I’m sorry, but I can’t permit comments advocating violence, however tongue-in-cheek they might be. We live in dangerous times.

just when did the irish people become so lifeless? it might be our country but few seem willing to stand up and fight for it. a carbon tax was brought in without a whimper, the same with the smoking ban, people were ripped off with the introduction of the euro and few complained, water charges are proposed and no one bats an eyelid. it might be an useful post to collect and make a list of all the changes/charges that this government have brought in that, have/will cost us money. it will be a long list, of that i’m sure. perhaps when people look at it in full then they might wake up and say what the fuck.

We need to get back to the idea of how to wrest the political discourse and political ideas back from the vested interests that have destroyed the country. How can this be done with effect?
Stand a general election candidate who advocates
1 The abolition of TD expenses?
2. Cutting TD salaries in half.?
We must put the arguments about Collins and Dev in the past.
We must reject the Thatcherite greed that has consumed Ireland for the past 13 years.
The idea of Land League / boycott tactics might be useful.

Tumbrel Cart, I take it you reject my suggestion that what is needed is a coherent political philosophy.

why cut the wages in half? surely they should be equal to the average wage. perhaps a few thousand more for being taoisech, thats about it. start with the county/city councils, change the way they operate. all they do at the moment is encourage and breed parish pump politics and cronyism. the idea of a candidate, is not such a bad one mind. a few candidates with a clear policy to clean up corruption, with no links to the 1920s, and from no particular family dynasty, could wield significant power in the next government. recent polls show that as many people are in favour of the main opposition party as are against the present government. the numbers expressing support for lenihan’s policies is roughly the same as those calling for the IMF to be brought in. this suggest to me that the next election will end in a very hung dail. the independents will have the power. all you need is 2/3 candidates who are not interested in politics as a personal career. the idea of a boycott is interesting though , but how would it work? boycott all NAMA banks? only one available i think then would be the PTSB?
i still like the idea of nationalizing the corrib gas fields. place it into NTMA at a future “NAMA” value of 140billion, problem solved. Why would that not work?

“this suggest to me that the next election will end in a very hung dail. the independents will have the power. all you need is 2/3 candidates who are not interested in politics as a personal career”.. Yep Gerryo.. Couldn’t agree with you more. That’s all that’s needed.. 2 or 3 independents, targeting some special interest maybe. Bock, you up for it? You’d have enough support I reckon.

I’m here to provoke discussion, stimulate thought and piss everyone off.

That’s my job.

However, I’m quite prepared to support any puppet who’ll be prepared to parrot my opinions in the parliament.

Gerryo is right. Nationalising the gas would solve our problems, but instead of that, plans are being drawn up to sell off all the state’s other assets and pour the money into Anglo. What can be done? Well, here’s a link to an online petition calling for suspension of work on the Corrib pipeline, pending a full investigation. Anyone who has not already done so should sign their name to it. Make a stand, it’s our country.

Gerryo. Fully support the idea of displaying disgust by non use of Nama Banks, Its a simple gesture but one which could have huge impact carried out collectivly, I changed mine about four mths ago.
Captain Con. I agree with you regarding the ” brain drain ” However there are many people trapped here unlike past difficult times, There are two generations of people with very real commitments, Such as elderly parents, Children with difficulties, Grandchildren, Debts, mortgages etc, For whom the reality of leaving is not possible., These are the people who can make a difference.
I do believe the Internet is a very powerful tool, But Bertie just ran away from Cashel to peddal his nonsense elsewhere,, A couple of years ago I wouldnt have viewed marching as productive, I do now, But I think the anger is so palpable that the result could be hideous if it is not supported by as Spailpean put forward a ” Coherant political philosophy ”
It has been very difficult up to now but if the Budget in Dec proceeds along the lines being bandied about ie Mary Harney and her ” Substantial and enormous ” ( Oh the irony ! ) health cuts, Which are guaranteed to be frontline cuts, Then 2011 will be an off the chart terrifying experience.

That’s before the budgets of 2011, 2012 and 2013, which will impose the same level of cuts and tax increases, in order to make sure Mr Abramovich achieves his profits.

Mr. Abramovich will never have to see the inside of an Irish Hospital and that alone makes me insane with anger.

Seamus, so you reckon there is €20 Billion a year in the Corrib gas field?, how did you figure that one?, because that appears to be the annual shortfall between Government revenue and expenditure, so you advocate suspending work on the pipeline, then what?, leave it offshore?, what is to be gained from that. I say we signed a deal with Shell etc.,bad and all as it is, let’s honour it, complete the pipeline, then let’s see where the pipe the gas to from Mayo.

I am 56 years old, I am not emigrating, I have never emigrated, develop some backbone, as they are fond of saying in Thomond Park “Stand up and fight” don’t wait for someone else to do it for you.

56 you’re in your prime Jbkenn! I visit a hunka burnin lurve abroad now and then who’s 55.
Well said though.. Stand up and fight if your brain isn’t too drained.

“but this is Ireland”.. the difference is we’re Irish as Bock says.

jbkenn. We have to fight with our minds and our experience, We as a people have never before faced such a crisis when our own democratically elected Government has become the opponent of its people.
Is it possible to create an entire new Chapter via this forum ?
I believe it is.
I have posted here before that Ireland and the Irish are about so much more than bondholders and banks, We have all listed and produced coherant and relevant cuts which could be made, We have exposed lies, manipulations and deciet, Now can we pool together and provide valid suggestions, Facts, figures dimensions of changes and savings, How they can be enforced etc.
If all of us here take a portion of relevance to be examined, researched and produced, I’m convinced we can come up with a plan…………………what say ye ?

FME, my brain is’nt drained, I don’t have any answers, but I do know this much, I ain’t going to let the bastards grind me down…. without a fight. I am under no illusions as to what to expect from my fellow citizens, in my youth I was part of a group, mainly teenagers, who were given a disused school by the parish, we fundraised, and we renovated the building as a community centre primarily to use as a Youth Club, we were ably assisted by two adults, one a parent, the other a Priest, but in the main it was a teenage effort., as soon as the work was completed, as committee was formed in the community to run the hall and we were relegated to two voices on the committee, and essentially excluded from any say in matters of importance.
My life took me and others away from the community, the centre fell in to disuse and eventually was disposed of, I dont know, nor do I care, who benefited financially from the sale.
Incidentally one of my last visits to the centre was to a Fianna Fail Cumann meeting, I and others had the temerity to question a former Minister (who still has his hand in the taxpayers pocket to the tune of in excess of €120,000 per annum in pensions and a directorship of the DAA which pays €15,500 per annum) on matters of policy, this did not go down well, as you can imagine, two days later I was fired by my employer, a staunch Fianna Fail supporter, and was unemployed for sixteen months as a result.
I invite you and others to do what little you can… who knows?, we might even make a difference

With all the news of Anglo, INBS, the DDDA and expenses scandals, FAS, The HSE, can I ask what reforms have been brought forward? What sanctions have been put in place to stop the rot?

None. Fianna Fail won’t poison the pool for their next generation of swindlers from Clongowes and Blackrock.

jbkenn.Very interesting, sad and outrageous that you lost your job for reasons you gave, Interesting because last week I was in a waiting room in a public building, The man sitting beside me was having a great rant about the Health Service, I asked him what he was going to do about it, He looked at me with total surprise and replied ” Sure if I open my mouth I’ll lose my job ” Incredible !
Captain Con. The late Maurice Nelligan who tirelessly tried to improve the Health service, Went to Blackrock college, The ” Elite ” who created this crisis come from across all strata of society, There is no background, Educational institution or Societal arena they have in common, Only the vile and exclusive order of Omerta that they imposed on their greedy dispicable mind set and actions.

There’s a lot of anger being expressed here, and rightly so.

But nothing constructive will come of it unless it’s transformed into a clearly thought out plan of action that a substantial number of people are committed to.

Stop paying your mortgage. Remember the rent strikes of the 70’s? For those of you who do not. This was started by residence associations across the country. Their main objective at the time was for the people living in these council estates to be allowed to purchase their homes at a reasonable price after a min of 10 years paying rent to the council. This strike lasted for the best part of 18months, but the citizen won and the laws were changed. Have we the guts as a people to have a coordinated national mortage strike. This would rattle the cage, if we have the will carry it off.

LJS. I appreciate your point as in if executed collectively it could be effective.
The potential risk and stress factor would be too much for me, I resisted any mortgage for years but had to succumb to carry out repairs and renovation.
This is my sanctuary in the world I would never expose it to the possibility of loss and would feel irresponsible to my kids and grandkids as I feel i’m only the guardian and its all i have to give them.

Norma, Know how you feel. But it must be remembered that during the rent strikes people were threatened with eviction and in some cases the local authorities tried to evict some tenants. These evictions were stopped by the local residents and local members of the residents associations. I was only a young nipper at the time. But I have a very clear memory of events, due to the fact that my late Father was very involved in the residents association movement. I agree, it would take a lot of courage, but properly organised, it could be done. I remember my Dad and other organisers collecting the rents weekly from tenants to insure that when the strike ended successfully that the arrears were paid to the local councils. This could also be done with mortgage collection. After all its the fucking banks as well as our government that got us into this mess.

Jbkenn, I posted that piece late at night and should have said that revenue from the Corrib gas field could help (not solve) our problems. I still think all work there should stop. Why should it go ahead? Who benefits? Nobody except Shell. The local community don’t want it. The Dublin media have portrayed the agitation as the work of outsiders but an opinion poll last month by the Connaught Telegraph show a huge majority of the population of Mayo are totally opposed to it in its present form.

Why should their views be ignored? You say “we” signed a deal with Shell, bad and all as it is, let’s honour it”. That’s just another variation of “it’s-the-only-game-in-town-and-we-have-to-make-the-most-of-it” scenario that’s being rammed down our throats daily. “We” the people didn’t sign anything. The deal was signed by a crook who happened to be in government at the time and who was subsequently convicted in a court of law (although not for treason which should have been the charge). “We” the people were never consulted in the matter. There is a clause which allows the minister to stop the whole stupid nonsense in a perfectly legal way on health and safety grounds (click on the link to the online petition in my earlier post to see details).

In 2008, the Petroleum Affairs Division of the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources estimated that there were reserves of oil and gas worth €540 billion (€540,000,000,000) lying under the waters off our west coast. Are we going to allow this to be stolen from under our eyes in the coming years?

“Unfortunately, political or any other kind of philosophy seems to be beyond the ken of the majority of Irish people, as the Captain has implied. As I’ve said elsewhere in this forum, the Irish “education” system is destructive of any kind of rational thinking is fields such as politics, ethics and philosophy generally. It’s just a sausage machine designed to inculcate an authoritarian mindset whereby “the bosses are always right”.” SPAILPIN is so correct there in most ways. We have had the usual nonsense about the magnificence of our education system. Just A LOAD of self-inflating nonsense. Critical thinking, ability to analyse, a capacity to extrapolate, dissect, identify and isolate ideology, create a justifiable hierarchy in arguments based on defensible criteria, articulate and defend a reasonable viewpoint based on a pathway of reasoned argument: these are features that our education system does not emphasise. Memorisation: a lower order skill is very valued and will get you far in the paper chase of certs, diplomas and degrees, all of which are as devalued as AIB shares nowadays.

jbkenn, just kidding with the brain drain.. what a bullshit term.
” I and others had the temerity to question a former Minister (who still has his hand in the taxpayers pocket to the tune of in excess of €120,000 per annum in pensions and a directorship of the DAA which pays €15,500 per annum) on matters of policy, this did not go down well, as you can imagine, two days later I was fired by my employer, a staunch Fianna Fail supporter, and was unemployed for sixteen months as a result.”
Fucking bullshit Jbkenn. Bullshit. That’s the extent of my vocabulary for that.

You have every right to ask questions.. the reason some with Napoleon complexes don’t like them is they don’t know the answers. That minister obviously has no scruples to want to get you fired. I would have gotten busy harassing the fucker for the 16 months to keep me occupied.. I’d have been standing outside his office every day with a big sign that read.. The bollix Mr__ Got me fired for asking questions.. Bet he’d have found you a job real quick.

I don’t know, Bock.

Adolph Hitler, who unfortunately understood only too well the black art of demagoguery, said, “It is good for governments that people do not think”.

A disproportionately high number of such non-thinking people seem to be contributing to your “forum”, Bock. (Obviously, Poll Dorcha, you are one of those I don’t include here and thanks for the acknowledgment of my contribution above.)

Either that, Bock, or you are manipulating things to make it appear so, in order to discourage the development of any kind of political consensus that might provide a coherent alternative to the status quo.

The almost complete lack of any rational engagement with progressive political ideas here is astounding.

If what appears on your site is an accurate reflection of the mentality of the population at large in Limerick and the country generally, there is no hope whatsoever. As I’ve said in some of my contributions, I knew it was bad. But I did not think it was that bad.

What most “people” (ie anonymous posters) seem to be doing on this site is merely venting their anger. It never gets beyond that. There is little no attempt to make a connection between their own personal grievances and the systemic injustice and corruption that besets this country and which is the root cause of many of these grievances.

It is out of the question that that kind of blinkered, fragmented thinking could generate a coherent political strategy for dealing with the underlying dysfunctionality of this State.

All this site is achieving, in the main, is serving as a kind of safety valve allowing people to let off steam. As such, it is supporting the status quo rather than challenging it, insofar as it is reducing the pressure for the kind of radical political thought and action required to change things while at the same time acting as a false substitute for such thought and action.

This site is like the Joe Duffy show, only worse. At least we can be confident that the voices on the Joe Duffy show are those of real human beings – well, sort of anyway.

Can you do anything at all, Bock, to raise the general level of discussion on this site?

Spailpín Fánach:
Nobody else is complaining about the level of discussion. If it’s not to your liking maybe you should go elsewhere!

You’re right there, Duder, I could leave the site.

But on the other hand, everyone is entitled to my opinion.

Spailpín Fánach.. I take it that’s your real life name then is it? If so, commiserations.
Such wise words from a mere itinerant labourer. Such an astute comparison also on a previous thread of the general population to the prisioners in plato’s cave. You’ve obviously truely seen the light.

Why not start a philosophy blog? I mean you don’t seriously think your suggestion of equal pay for all is something that would ever be implemented do you?
I mean where you say “The almost complete lack of any rational engagement with progressive political ideas here is astounding.”.. I take it you think your suggestion of equal pay for everybody is a progessive political idea? I mean we’re not living in never never land, ya know.. or maybe you were just having a laugh.

“In 2008, the Petroleum Affairs Division of the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources estimated that there were reserves of oil and gas worth €540 billion (€540,000,000,000) lying under the waters off our west coast. Are we going to allow this to be stolen from under our eyes in the coming years?”
Sorry, I operate in an industry which is under the stewardship of the above department, I would not believe a word from them, a bigger bunch of incompetent gobshites you are never likely to meet, I give you their Minister Eamon Ryan, enough said.
I still say bring the gas ashore, it ain’t any good to us out at sea, when it is landed, we can (if we develop the cajones) play hardball with Shell, as in, now it’s landed in Mayo, where does it go from here?

The counter argument is to leave it where it is, in our ownership, until we need it. At present we have enough gas from Scotland. Why send our reserves abroad now, for no money at all? Since we receive nothing for it, why give it away? Why not let them wait until we need it and then buy it from them on our terms?

Spalpin I am sure that you have read Marx ? In the early days of the Soviet Union, it seems they tried the idea of “from each according to ability to each according to need” . It became very apparent very soon that as a single MD was earning less that a general worker with a family , there was no point in putting oneself through the rigors of becoming an MD. They changed the system. Communism has never been tried because Human nature will not accept it. If Bill Gates were to throw a million dollars out of his front door every day for the rest of his life he would still die a very rich man, but he still works to make money, why? Any attempt at any form of “socialism” in Ireland has been rejected by the People. The people who marched with me on the Tax marches way back when , voted F.F. when given the chance! Changing the mindset of Ireland will be a lot more difficult than coming up with a new version of old “isms”

FME @ 76

I don’t know how you could take it that Spailpín Fánach is my real name.

You rubbish the proposition of equal pay as a “never never land” idea. Before the Atlantic Revolutions of the late 18th century the modern idea of democracy was a “never never land” notion dreamt up by the philosophers of The Enlightenment.

Rubbishing a political idea simply because it is not yet implemented is a recipe for keeping everything the same. So you are arguing for the status quo.

Need I say any more?

Gary Ireland @ 79

Firstly, I’m not advocating Marxism, so everything you say in that regard is a straw man argument.

I have made it perfectly clear that what I’m arguing for is the proper application of democracy. As I said already, equality is a, if not the, fundamental principal of democracy. Therefore, to deny people equality of income is a violation of democracy in probably the most tangible way possible.

What you said about Bill Gates supports the point I already made, viz., that paying “brain workers” more than “menial” workers doesn’t make the former think better or work harder.

The interesting thing in all of this is that no argument I’ve ever heard used to counter the equality of income proposition stands up to scrutiny. Yet people perversely cling to the notion that to deny people equality in this important way is alright.

To repeat what I said already, distributive injustice is injustice.

As such, it is indefensible.

Spailpin Fanach. Whereas you , Just like everyone else on this site have made posts which are valid both historically and philosophically.
You have not proposed any concrete solutions at post 34 or post 64, I have agreed with you that ” Coherant political philosophy ” is vital to any movement forward, However that is mere rhetoric unless substantiated with a breakdown as to how to bring that phrase from rhetoric to action.
Your post @ 71 issues forth as much anger and fraustration as anyone elses here except it is directed toward this site and its equally angry fraustrated contributers, Yet it contains no proposals.
My post @ 60 put forward the proposal of ” portions of relevance ” being distributed among us here to be researched and investigated in order to produce facts which may lend themselves toward the creation of a chapter of change, I recieved no response from you or anyone else.
These present conditions which produce so much unproductive reaction via this site and others do herald the winds of change, but they need to be harnessed and produced into a worthy document.
I am again suggesting we divide up specific Government Departments, Their specific guidelines, expenditure etc, incl The Senate, pool our findings create a document outlining the cuts in expenditure that would save our Health and Educational systems and down the line from there.
This crisis and the management of same has to be looked at as ruthlessly as a sinking ship or a failing business, The house is crumbling, underpinning is vital by ridding the building of the rot and the infestations.
Can we start by identifying same in an orderly and factual manner which requires manpower and time.
If you have the way forward for your own rhetoric, Please tell me, I’m willing to put in the time.
I do not have a fada key on computer so apologies for that.

Spalpin I am confused. What do you mean by “equality of income” ? In the current World there is no such thing as equality. Had you been born in the back streets of Calcutta there is no way you or any of your people would be on this site. However had you been born to the Maharaja a few Kilometres away you might very well be one of the rulers of the internet. In an ideal world your theory might work. This is not an ideal world.

Norma it’s Ctrl Alt together as in á é etc.

Firstly regarding Gary Ireland’s post # 82, the “equality of income” proposition is perfectly simple and I don’t know how you could be confused about it.

As I’ve explained already, it would entail that everyone gets paid at the same rate. In other words, everyone would get paid x euro per hour. What’s so complicated about that?

As for your references to Calcutta and your pointing out, “This is not an ideal world”, I’ve dealt with essentially that same argument in my reply to FME @ 76 above.

Pay attention, man!

Norma, I replied to Gary Ireland first in order to highlight the fact that what I’ve presented for consideration is one simple proposition, namely, equality of income.

It’s simple but radical. It’s radical because it points to the fundamentally flawed nature of democracy in this and other countries throughout the world.

To use the now old cliché, it’s the elephant in the room that nobody wants to talk about.

I believe that if the idea of equality of income were implemented, the vast bulk of political and social problems that currently beset us and exercise so much airtime and newsprint would automatically disappear.

For example, we’re probably all sick and tired at this stage of listening to complaints etc about the HSE. However, it’s clear that the root cause of most of the purported problems with our health system is the gap between the rich and the poor. It is the poor who suffer when public services are absent or deficient. So if the gap between rich and poor were eliminated or at least substantially reduced, most of these problems would vanish.

The same goes for the education system and the other public services.

I believe that proposals that purport to deal with problems in the various branches of the public service and body politic generally as if they are separate and without reference to the root cause as I see it are doomed to fail.

It would be like the blind men and the elephant, to extend the pachyderm motif.

However, if enough people at least acknowledged the root cause of most of our political and social problems, perhaps some kind of coherent political programme would be constructed around it.

The beauty of my proposition is its simplicity. It also has another important advantage in that it requires the introduction of no new revolutionary ideology. The ideology is already in place.

It’s called democracy.

So why not just properly implement it?

Spalpin I am paying attention. It’s just that I can not believe what I am reading. You appear to be an intelligent person. The answer you seem to suggest to the problem posed by Bock is to pay a road sweeper €10 per hour and a brain surgeon €10 per and this will solve the problems of the world? I think Bock may have something a little more reasonable in mind.

Spailpin Fanach. Your post @ 83 deserves a well thought out response, I am under pressure to prioritise today so apologies in advance if its not up to it.
I am going to break it down as I see it.
1.Your deliverance, Though very thought provoking could do without the undertone of ’50’s schoolteacher with zero tolerance for the expression of others ie……………..

” Pay attention man ” to Gary @ 82, To put forward such ” simplistic radicalism ” you need the capacity for debate not enforcement. ( Had to get that out of the way )

2. ” Everyone gets paid X euro per hour ”
In itself not complicated, The route to that being extremly complex and the route cannot be bypassed.

3. ” Its simple but radical ”
Nothing radical is simple, Why ?
Because ” Radicalism ” requires the breaking of bounderies, That in itself is possible, The complexity comes with the replacement of new and improved bounderies.

4. ” Elephant in the room ”
What is so new and unique in this current crisis is that the ” room ” is crammed beyond capacity with ” Elephants ” They cannot be herded out the door en masse because they wont fit, The floor beneath them is creaking and failing, The floor requires support to save the room and the ” Elephants ” need to be removed efficiently and systematically so they dont create panic and trample all over the people who have taken care of them.

5. ” Complaints re HSE ”
The people arent sick of listening to the complaints, The people are just sick and becoming sicker.

6. ” Gap between rich / poor eliminated or reduced, Problems would vanish ”
Now that is a ” straw man arguement ” if ever there was one, That would leave everyone with the unsustainable belief that the primary criteria is financial.
It is not workable or enforceable because life and growth is about so much more than economics, wages etc.
The meaning and execution of ” Equality ” in its true sense needs to be far more encompassing than ” equal pay ” It must be taken far and beyond the realm of Politics, Toward the higher level of responsibility of expression where human beings take on board the reality of being rational agents, realising their capabilities and separating their personal freedom and expression from the public realm.

7. ” Pachyderm motif ”
This extends way beyond the realm of Government and/or Politics.

8. ” The beauty of my proposition ”
Your proposition at this point in our societal evolvement is akin to giving a ” Renoir ” to a homeless starving man in a war torn scenario.
You cannot implement your ideology without walking through the process and the process is that we have been handed a large basket of tangled wool and asked to knit a beautiful sweater which will keep us warm and attract admiring glances, Its not that it cannot be achieved but all the wool has to be tediously unravelled first or we will end up with a too tight neck and short sleeves and an unravelled hem, It will choke us, leave us cold and fall apart, We need to unravel first and place before us the resources so that we can see them clearly and design from there.

9. This is getting very long winded, So i will wind it up with a reference to Democracy via Cornelius Castoriadis, Who said ” Democracy as demonstrated to us could be catogorised as a liberal oligarchy ” So are we democratic at all ?
The same Castoradis put forward a social theory that ” Change emerges through social imaginary without determination ” And if nothing else, then site provides a forum for that change.

@Norma. re your post at 60. There are many sensible ideas that can be proposed to get Ireland out of this morass. However the first cut must be depose the regime that caused the problem and whose members still benefit substantially from the spoils of office.

No cutbacks or sacrifices will be willingly accepted by anybody from an officer class that refuses to take any pain or any responsibility for the devastation they have caused.

We must start with an elcetion. Not that we have any great democracy, but we might begin to accept sacrifices if the existing crowd were removed.
Our first obejective therefore should be an election and not a national government which is being put forward by some people.
PS I think we should also not respond to nonsense hobby horse contributions from some contributors.

I’m not going to respond to the ad hominem stuff other than to say it further illustrates the irrationality of those responsible.

I have presented a simple proposition which is necessary in order to remedy a fundamental economic injustice in our society.

Gary Ireland, norma, Tumbrel Cart and anyone else who opposes that proposition is an opponent of economic justice. Not only that, they are opponents of democracy, insofar as equality is a fundamental principle of democracy.

It is not possible for such people to engage with, let alone formulate, anything that might in some way address the injustice and the corruption that bedevils this country. In fact, by reference to the perverse stance they are adopting in this discussion, they are aligning themselves with the forces responsible for that injustice and corruption.

Bock has pointed out that nobody is obliged to respond in a rational way to my posts and I never said they were.

I have contributed my tuppence worth. That’s all I can do.

It’s funny how I expected you to return when the “discussion” had degenerated to this level, Bock.

Not only that, but your response is exactly what I expected.

Why did I expect it?

Well I’ve been around long enough to understand the more unpleasant dynamics of human behaviour.

“See no evil … “ and all of that.

Spalpin I meant no insult. I can see no way your idea would work. However I suppose it is no less practical than the notion of refusal to pay the mortgage or mass demonstrations on the streets. The ICTU tried to organise a demonstration recently. There are approx. five hundred thousand trade union members in Ireland, a thousand turned up most of them small groups with their own axe to grind. The effect was to give Ahern , the so called Minister of Science , (who believes that God made the World in seven days and put Adam and Eve on earth to procreate ),a chance to snigger at the populace and voters.

Unless Ireland wants to change the way the world works by overthrowing Capitalism, Communism, Monarchs, Feudal Lords and all existing forms of Government then we are stuck with what we have got.
Our descendants for generations will be paying the bill’s for a tiny minority of money hungry filth.

If I had an answer to the question posed I would be up doing something about it!

Gary Ireland, the points you make have already been effectively dealt with and disposed of.

Bock, obviously what I’m talking about is not mere disagreement.

What I’m talking about is three “people” (ie anonymous bloggers) simultaneously opposing a simple rational and ethical proposition with arguments that have already proved to be illogical along with ad hominem insinuations.

The proposition I have presented has not been refuted.

The reason for this is simple.

It is irrefutable.

If you don’t see them, Bock, maybe it’s because like your man Nelson you’ve got the telescope pointed in the wrong direction.

I don’t see any point in pursuing the “discussion” at this level any further as it’s only distracting from the substantive issue as I see it.

By the way in that regard, I’ve only now seen your “Single Transferable Idea” comment made earlier. I suppose it would be considered impressively witty at the soundbite level of political commentary in this country. However, it’s meaningless in relation to the concept it’s aimed at.

If you’re going to accuse people of things, at least have the courage of your convictions and identify exactly which statements you consider ad hominem.

Well now, Bock, this is all a bit rich coming from you – the individual who claim to be 20% more offensive and who reserves the right to exclude anybody from this site on the basis of your not liking them (ie on an ad hominem basis) rather than on the basis of fairness or anything like that.

So it’s disingenuous of you to taunt me with that “courage of your convictions” codology.

However, let me give you one example.

First of all by way of context – and context is very important here.

You yourself took a snide ad hominem dig at me in the course of a previous discussion on another thread when I raised the topic of equality of income. You suggested there was something wrong with me when I said that people typically responded with straw man arguments to my raising this topic. I let the ad hominem dig pass and pointed out that your defending straw man arguments, which by definition are illogical, was a further illustration of your irrationality.

You may also recall that in the course of that discussion you rejected in ipse dixit fashion a comment of mine as “nonsense” and I pointed out that merely saying something is nonsense doesn’t make it so.

Again during that discussion you disparagingly referred to the equality of income concept as a “hobby horse” of mine. I responded by saying something to the effect that since you didn’t know me you had no way of knowing what my alleged hobby horses were. (By the way, it’s a topic I rarely broach in meat space, as I’m quite aware of the political prejudices and narrow mindedness of most of my compatriots. I have raised it on two threads on this website as it is totally in context.)

And then we come to Tumbrel Cart’s jibe:

“PS I think we should also not respond to nonsense hobby horse contributions from some contributors.”

That’s it. No attempt to deal with the substance of the alleged “nonsense hobby contributions”. Just an insidious echoing of offensive remarks previously made to which I had responded as such. Snide also in not actually identifying me. I wonder why Tumbrel Cart didn’t have the courage of his/her convictions in that respect, Bock. And in the context of two other contributors having lined up in irrational and personalised opposition.

Look Bock, by your own admission you cannot and will not be an impartial adjudicator in this regard.

As well as that, since you yourself are implicated in the situation, as I have outlined it above, you are precluded by one of the rules of natural justice (nemo iudex in causa sua: let no one be a judge in his own cause) from adjudicating in it.

All things considered, it is probably foolish of me to have spent so much time attempting to explicate this matter. But notwithstanding your addressing me on the previous thread referred to (albeit ironically or sarcastically) as “Oh Wise One”, I never claimed to be highly intelligent or wise. I’m just a thinking person trying make the best use of the brains I have.

Anyway, you asked for it, Bock, and there you have it.

As far as I can see, all of those comments were about your idea, which people think is silly. I can’t see a single attack on you personally, which is what the term ad hominem means.

OK, Bock, as you are aware, I did not expect you to come down on my side in that matter.

Could you please answer the following question: Do you consider it acceptable for one forum member to openly incite other members to ostracise a particular member, as Tumbrel Cart did in the extract I quoted?

Spailpin Fanach. I took the time and extracted the patience to respond to you, I do not expect you to either apreciate or acknowledge, However you do not have the grounds, knowledge or right to define me as an ” opponent ” Firstly because you do not have to agree with me but it would only be rational to respect my values in the area of debate, As those values belong to me as yours do you, And that is the cornerstone of true equality.

Secondly, I fear you are caught in your own web of ” ipse dixit ” As you have expounded at length regarding ” Equal pay ” and ” Coherant political philosophy ” While only furthering the discussion with critique and never elaborating on specifically how either would be achieved, You consider ” Context ” very important, I consider the achievment beyond rhetoric very important.

You refer to TUMBREL CARTS comment as a ” jibe ” directed toward you, I fail to see that there was anything personally directed there, As he used the plural in reference, You are assuming it was you, And surely you realise that assumptions are without facts.
I have failed to see how your ideology could be executed, Because you put it forward with no blueprint, Yet you respond with such authoritarian reactive rhetoric that you are now demeaning your own logic.
What you are saying here is sounding a lot like Ne humans crede, That is not a criticism but it is an observation based on what you have written.

Tumbrel cart @ 86. I agree the present regime has to go, My dilemma is what would be the replacement
I know this has been debated at length here, But what is left to choose from is becoming more grim by the day.
Whoever replaces existing regime should carry the knowledge with them that ” The jig is up ! ” That basically they are on probation.
Now how that is workable or achievable i’m not at all sure, Which is why I put forward the idea of pooling resources to come up with the ” facts and figures ” which can be laid out for all to see, To produce a document of what the people came up with and what they will not tolerate in the future, Need to flesh this out but i’m having some serious time constraints and need help with it.

Spailpín Fánach — I suspect you have entered a very dangerous place in your own view of things, where you and your beliefs have become one. This is not a safe place to be in. It presents the danger of paranoia and delusions of persecution.

You must try to remind yourself that you are not the only adult in the world, and that others are just as capable of rational thinking as you are.

Everyone is entitled to disagree with your views and to poke fun at them if they wish, and as Tumbrel Cart has pointed out, nobody has to respond to your comments if they don’t want to. You don’t seem to understand that there’s nothing special about your opinions. Everybody has one.

Bock, if that is not an ad hominem post, I don’t know what is. It’s quite scurrilous actually but it reflects more on you than on me.

Most likely it is an attempt to distract from the question I asked you to answer in post # 99, which is still outstanding.

You have ignored the question, Bock. Could you please answer it.

To touch on a point I made earlier, the level of this “discussion” has degenerated to the lowest possible level. (Not that it was ever satisfactory, as I said in post # 71 above.)

I noted at the time that your very first response to my proposing the concept of equality of income was a sarcastic non-sequitur. That set the tone of the responses generally on this site (apart from a few honourable exceptions) to my arguments substantiating that concept.

The ad hominem response is the last and most despicable resort – at least on a verbal level – of those who have tried every other illegitimate method and failed to defeat the truth.

It is rather ominous that you and your fellow travellers on this site rubbish democracy as a silly idea, as in your comments in post # 98.

Is this a sign of things to come?

Even when the “Celtic Tiger” madness was in full swing I feared that when the bubble burst fascism would emerge from the wreckage – just as the “Roaring Twenties” in the last century was followed by the fascist thirties.

What I’ve seen of the mentality of many bloggers on this site has done nothing to allay my fear in that regard.

Finally for now, Bock, I wish to reiterate my request that you answer the question I put to you in post # 99.

This is not a forum and it does not have members. Tumbrel Cart is not a member and neither are you. This is just a website where people can put comments.

Replace money with prayer and ask the good Lord to provide for all our needs.

This proposition is irrefutable.

Moving away momentarily from the notion of equality of income, perhaps this society needs to take the idea of minimum and maximum incomes very seriously. We are now in the ludicrous situation where some professions garner salaries that are ridiculous multipliers of the earnings of most others in employment. These yawning gaps were built up by artificial boundaries around access to these professions, and then the explotation of these deficiences and shortages. Pharmacy comes to mind, as does medicine. Even the UK doesn’t have the same anger inspiring gap between salaries as exists here, and medical consulatants, while paid very well there, are not in some unattainable pay stratosphere of their own making. And the UK is hardley a workers’ paradise!

I agree with most of what you say, Poll Dorcha.

And I’m grateful for what must be regarded in the circumstances as supportive comment.

I have long believed for ethical reasons that there should be a maximum limit as well as a minimum limit on pay.

However, I would view such a measure as only a necessary first step towards the equality of income I have proposed.

The problem, as I see it, of departing from strict equality of income, which is easy to define, is that, human nature being what it is, the boundaries would inevitably become more blurred and confused and therefore practically impossible to police.

I’m with John Mac the Second..
“Replace money with prayer and ask the good Lord to provide for all our needs. This proposition is irrefutable.” Definitely irrefutable John. Those African children just aren’t praying hard enough.
My proposition would be get rid of money all together. Live like they do on Star Trek. They just got food and board on the Next Generation didn’t they. Picard for taoiseach!

In all seriousness I don’t know the realistic answer to our woes but getting people thinking and debating is definitely a good move in the right direction. Apologies if this is not up to a good standard of general level of discussion of progressive political ideas and if I appear as non thinking. I will try harder.

Norma.. Spot on with everything you’ve said!

@Spailpin Fanach. I have not been back to the site for a few days but I see that some comments have been addressed to me.
Yes, I did have your comments in mind when making the remark “nonsense hobby horse contributions”. Not you personally as you will see from the quote.
My remarks were make after seeing your idea that everybody should be paid the same amount regardless of the job or presumably how they did the job or even if they had no job at all but were more than willing to work as is now the case.
I have to say that I am not aware of any such economic system to have been practised in any part of the world. It is nonsense for a number of reasons.

1. It will not work-ever.
2. If tried most people with skills would leave the country and the people who remain would probably be as incompetent as the present government or worse if that was possible.
3. It provides cover for the present government by changing the debate to something that will never happen. Like DeValera and draining the Shannon or a 32 county republic. We all know about the Shannon after last year and lets face it, Ireland has failed absmyally to run a 26 county republic. Nevertheless these two items regularly dominated the political agenda for years. They were of course a deliberate distraction from the more immediate social and economic issues of the day.

4. It distracts from the real-politic of getting the current government out. They can simply point to the alternate philosophy being proposed and if it were the only alternative even they would be re-elected.

That said, I agree with your remark in 108– “I have long believed for ethical reasons that there should be a maximum limit as well as a minimum limit on pay—.
I absolutely agree with it but I do not agree with it as stepping stone to something unworkable.

My frustration in general is that the initial thread was concerned with how to claim back the country from the crooks, criminals and fraudsters that have taken control of it.
Many of the contributions including this one are not addressing the very urgent issue proposed in the thread.

Tumbrel.. good points. Equal pay wouldn’t work.
We might aswell sit around and talk about Socrates and Plato.
How about this? The government tell the bondholders and subordinated bondholders to get stuffed. They took a gamble, tough. Draw up the legislation if necessary. Some specifically invested in our markets when the bond holders were guaranteed, paying 70% less on those bonds.. i.e. Abramovich.
Brian Lenihan needs to seriously grow some balls and soon. It won’t damage our reputation in the long run. These chumps only invested here in the first place because they thought there was a quick cheap buck to be made.
I say, Ireland is not for sale. Get stuffed. Go gamble elsewhere if you don’t like it.

FME. Agreed. Tell the bondholders to get stuffed. Tell the ECB to write it into the rules on all banks- If the bet goes sour, its your money that goes not the taxpayers. In plain english , go fuck yourself.

How much did Irish banks and pension companies lose on Lehmans, Northern Rock and others. It seems a bit Irish that having been burned as bondholders of other banks we should now pony up the full amount just because we are Paddies.
How come the Danish or American or UK banks don’t pay the bondholders but Paddy must pay 100%?
Maybe we could take a case in the European Court against the bondholders for racism.

Is it just to Fianna Fail in power?
Anybody have any figures on the hit taken by Irish banks on the above?

There is an event called ” Claiming our Future ” being held in the RDS on Sat Oct 30th, The website which is very descriptive of the event is
The event is free but it is recommended to register for your particular area of interest, I noted tonight that the “Political Activist ” area is full !
It looks like a positive move and includes a ” cafe ” type forum again designed to area of interest.

Tonight on Prime Time it was put forward that the sum of 4 billion would be what would be saved by stuffing the Bondholders, However that 4 billion incurs 200 million per annum in interest.
Also Abramovich was given 13% interest on his investment, With the knowledge that the Government guarantee expired in Sept, He is threatening to take legal action against the Irish Government.

I have searched the archive under ” Banking ” cant find it, Is the heading Danish Bank Scheme ?
But if I had a wish this minute, It would be that you were the singular and only port of call in Ireland for Abramovich, And if you were ill or indisposed that it were me !

FME . So many noughts , So little time !
Jeez woman you cant go adding Abramovich to your list ! There you go worrying me again.

FME. Hope you can lay your hands on a Gulfstream because you have gone Global !
Thanks for link, If our Government had looked toward any Northern European Country we would’nt be in this mess, Maybe they were seduced by cheap vodka ?
Apparantly its common ! Not that I would know !

haha Norma.. I have some fucking standards. Abramovich the Russian pimp would be lucky to get his hands on any Irish woman. Feckles and all, we don’t want no pimp. The fucking thug. Excuse my language.
I’d send him packing with his tail between his legs if it were up to me.

Good woman Norma. Two minutes with the both of us.. he’d get a good education on how the Irish conduct their business. Terms and conditions apply fucker. We’re not afraid of any veiled attempts at intimidation. Why did the fucker go public with his threats? I’m not a lawyer but If there were terms that were legitimate they’d be no need. On yer bike..

I might be falling foul of overthinking the Russia / Ireland connections at the minute, But recently, while trying to stand back a bit and look at the picture with a bit of objectivity, I continually find more connections with Russia.
The fact that Abramovich himself placed the bondholder issue into the public domain is something distractive in itself, I think the investment from Russia might be bigger and deeper.
I dont believe in coincidence when it comes to timing, Because timing in the world of commerce is key, If you check out It gives more detail on The Quinn Groups Russian investment and the key being it was at a time when it was clear to my dead granny that Anglo share prices were falling, That coupled with the arrival of a Russian delegation to Ireland on 22/9/08 to discuss their ” successful trade relationship “.That date being a few days prior to the “Bankers and Ministers dinner ”
The story I refer to is under heading ” Quinn Russia & Ukraine ”
I’m following up here on my suggestion to take the time to look a bit deeper and attempt to at least gather the facts and information to form a clear picture, Presently its foggy.

@norma. There is russian connection closer to home.
Aughinish Aluminium is now owned by a Russian company.
Taken from Ir Times Last January.

“”AUGHINISH ALUMINA, the alumina refinery located on the Shannon estuary, is valued at over $1.2 billion by its Russian parent in documents prepared for a flotation on the Hong Kong stockmarket.

AC Rusal, the world’s largest aluminium producer, is controlled by Russian businessman Oleg Deripaska. He plans to raise up to $2.6 billion in a landmark Hong Kong IPO next month and is betting on aluminium price growth to repay nearly $15 billion in debt and restore profits after a poor first half of 2009.

The prospectus for the flotation puts a value of $1.226 billion, based on cash flows, on the Limerick operation, making it the most valuable of the group’s 14 aluminium smelters and alumina refineries.

Alumina is the raw material from which aluminium is made; it is produced by refining bauxite ore.

The total value of the group’s smelters and refineries is put at $4.8 billion in the prospectus.

The only other assets of comparable value to Aughinish is the companies refinery and smelter complex in the Ural mountains of Russia. It is valued at $1.211 billion.””

Echoes above of the Skibereen Eagle back in the day with its then claim to be vigilant towards the actions of some late Tsar or other. It was delusional then and may be so also now!

going back to 77 and shell to sea etc – you might care to look into methyl clathrate, now I’m not into conspiracy theory, but if the fuckers can pump gas one way – can’t they reverse it?

Shame the useless wankers in the DCENR can’t see past their fat pay checks and work out what it’s really about. Looks like we are being by passed again!

And when I went to school they said we didn’t have any resourses – shame they didn’t catch up with the times!

god but i can’t wait to go out and vote for fianna fail again at the next election , yes the country is screwed , but it’s not nearly screwed enough , we need more corruption , back handers , brown envelopes, nod and winks , cheap labour for buildings nobody needs or can even afford , doctors who kill , police who just dont give a shit , child raping priests , the most expensive and inept public services in the world , it can and must get worse i tell you , join me and help to make ireland the 3rd world shit hole it truly deserves to be .

When can’t we be like Iceland tell them all to go to hell. The top earners in I reland will have to pay their proper shares and stop hiding behind all the different schemes of avoiding tax that the previous governmens (guess who, yes, the same party that is in government now) set up to look after them. Brian and Brian we are not eejits, give up.

The last two years were all about finding ways and means of letting the fat cats off the hook. Money thrown at bankers and bondholders, Nama to bail out banks and developers, pension bonanzas for incompetent or corrupt civil servants and politicians.
Give the rich time to salt away the cash. That is what the last two years were all about.
Now that the country is bust bailing out the rich, its time to hand Paddy the bill.
Can Paddy pay?
Will Paddy pay?

Sorry, I had to take break from this discussion way back there and I never came back.

I don’t want to wade back into a purported continuation of the purported discussion of my equality of income proposition.

But I do want to register here the fact that none of the comments on that topic made since my last one above constitutes a logical rebuttal of the proposition.

Which is not surprising because it is not possible to logically rebut the irrefutable.

To argue for distributive injustice cuts the ground from under any attempt at a principled argument against the “freebooting capitalism” that has ruined this country.

In for a penny, in for a pound.

Its taken awhile to read all the comments on this post and I have been sort of annoyed at the comments which would decry the idea of some form of equality in the payment of labour. I had this thought a long time ago as I worked on the buildings in London. As I worked on the sewerage of a hospital. The Operating Room had to postpone surgery in the area where I was repairing the outflow of waste. I have no idea as to the workers in this hospital or their salary, but as they watched from the upper windows at Paddy who was happy with his five pounds per day, Had they thought of my contribution to the surgery?
I have been lucky in the fact of my adaptability in as much as I could try many forms of employment, but I will talk of one for now to try to explain the thought of equality in payment. While being a Truck Driver I would deliver all sorts of our daily needs. In the 70s I would deliver material for shirt making which was a journey of 16 hours. For this 16 hours I was paid 12 pounds. Those shirts were sold to the elite for 18 pounds. Those shirts would be worn by our Doctors, Solicitors, and Politicians. A visit to my Doctor or Solicitor at this time would cost me about 10 pounds for mere minutes. As for visiting a Politician of this time, well I did visit one before I had to emigrate for the second time, and he, who was a landowner, publican, and landlord, rebuked me by saying. I don’t like the look of you young man, I think you are a bit smart for my liking.
We need to go back and think this out. To outright reject the idea of a parity of worth for labour is wrong. We need to look to one of our greatest thinkers which is Arthur Griffith, and read his thoughts as to the worth of labour, and its proper treatment of this the country’s wealth. To suggest there is any form of fairness in the payment of thousands per week to some households, while mere scores, and hundreds to others is obscene to say the least. To suggest the payment of 50E to a Doctor from a budget of 2ooE should at least be given thought. My local political hack has an income of thousands per week, he had the highest expenses of any in our mafia government in the previous year. He is continuing the Oligarchical system of having his children well placed to succeed him in his criminality while his neighbours for miles are living on some form of welfare.
I have my own ideas as to what should be done with our political hacks and their elite media whores but alas I could not say it aloud. In former times I would suggest the way of Griffith, but in to-days world I would only hope for a sharper, swifter solution.

Whether it’s your skin or the insides of your cells,
it’s a good thing. Most of the time, I can get a list of
emails and phone numbers in about 5 to 10 seconds.
Immediately compiling more than “a foot and a half” of research, Dr.

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