Nov 272010
 

In future, before the government decides on a single penny of expenditure on vital services, it will have to take out more than €5 billion to pay the interest on the IMF / ECB loan at the penal interest rate of 6.7%.  That’s €5 billion less to spend on health and education, so that the banks can be sheltered from their criminal mistakes, and so that the speculators who invested in them can be spared the pain of an investment gone wrong.

Free market economics, Lenihan-style.

Five billion every year in interest on a loan that would not be needed but for the decision to guarantee banks that failed due to mismanagement.

Every sane commentator in the world is saying this is a mistake.  Even the Financial Times, hardly a bastion of left-wing dissent, is advising against it.

The alternative?  Force the creditors to take ownership of the banks, so that they have no option but to recapitalise them if they want their money back.  After five or ten years, the banks will be back in profit and perfectly capable of repaying the investment.

Instead, in the most extreme example of moral hazard ever seen, the Irish government has taken upon the Irish people responsibility for mistakes they did not commit.  The argument that we all borrowed too much is utterly spurious because, for the most part, we all still continue to pay our debts, and are therefore not part of the problem.  It doesn’t matter what you or I borrowed if we make the repayments. In fact, we’re a major asset to the banks, so let nobody lecture you about how you lost the run of yourself.  It’s nonsense.

This punitive deal is being forced through over the weekend so that it can be completed before the markets open on Monday.  Ireland is being sacrificed to appease the spivs and money-dealers because the EU and the IMF are worried about Spain.

Let me repeat: the Irish people did not cause this problem.  What caused this problem was the greed, dishonesty and incompetence of the bankers.  What brought the catastrophe on Ireland was the decision by Lenihan to guarantee the. whole lot of them.

You might have heard Peter Bacon on the radio recently saying that he advised Lenihan the banks were in hock to the tune of about €158 billion.  A week later, Lenihan told the Dáil the figure was about €75 billion.

A lie. One lie among many, from a liar

By such lies, the Irish people have been led gently through a maze of deception to the point where we are now to be sacrificed for something we did not do.  The world is baffled.  Nobody can believe that an Irish government would willingly allow its country to be destroyed, and yet that’s precisely what Cowen and Lenihan are doing.

Why?  Because they’re serfs.  Forelock-tugging peasants lacking the courage to face up to those who are attempting to force this disaster on the country.

Treason.

  98 Responses to “IMF / ECB bailout will cost Ireland €5 billion interest every year”

Comments (98)
  1.  

    just how much did the banks borrow? why is it that every time we hear how much the banks are in debt, the figure keeps changing? if a gang of drug dealers were going to knee cap you over a debt, and you went to look for a loan to bail yourself out, you would ask for the full amount. did the bankers not tell the 2 brians how much they were in hock? did the 2 brians not ask? you can bet that the bankers who lend to our banks have a fair idea what the figure is. every figure we issue that is wrong only undermines our credibility in their eyes.
    also who got this money? what was it given for, and what use was it put too? these figures should be made available to its shareholders, namely the irish population.
    in time to come, i would be really surprised if we’re not looking at a fraud tribunal. all that money flooding into the country, someone somewhere had to be running a scam. even if it was something like letting money “rest” in an account for a few days and claiming the interest.

  2.  

    The banks themselves dont even know how much is needed.All they know is that it keeps going up and up.The thing now is that depositors ie good customers are pulling their money out (cant blame them for that who would want to store the family silver on the Titanic) and the state..I mean taxpayer is going to have to replace that as it is going.Really its trying to fill a hole that keeps getting deeper regardless of how fast you are shoveling.I mentioned the Titanic thats exactly what Ireland is now and instead of cutting back the engines and altering course its lining up straight for the iceberg and opening the engines to full speed!!.Looks like one hell of a fucking bang coming.

  3.  

    Bock, well said. Watching Vincent Browne, experts on that were saying the interest payments would be in the range of 10-12 billion per year. But I think this was including all current debt, and the IMF ‘bailout’ on top of it. I’ll see what I can get on line.
    I think it’s important. Because if it was just 5 billion we could possibly afford that. With the amount being estimated at twice that, no way we can afford it – Will be default in the long run anyways. I don’t understand how they can’t see this.

  4.  

    Bock I am glad you brought up the alternative of making the creditors take ownership of the banks, as I posted the same idea during the week. This of course was the brainchild of David McWilliams of the Sunday Business Post and I think it is an excellent idea. Perhaps we could get all the very talented Bockers out there to get behind this and force it onto the political mainstream agenda . What do you think, I know you have a lot of influence. At least its worth a try, it is surely better than defaulting.

  5.  

    I just wonder why the Irish interest rate is so much higher than the Greek rate.Is it because they have far greater confidence in the ability of Greece to recover and eventually pay everything back.After all if Ireland is put to the pin of its collar just to meet the interest payments what hope of ever paying back the actual loan or how do they invisage ever paying it off.Another delusional celtic tiger era perhaps.

  6.  

    Yep, it’s 100 billion ‘bailout’ from the IMF. At roughly 5%, that’s 5 billion per year on interest.
    As well as our existing national debt of 90 billion. The interest on that is roughly 4.5%.

    Plus another 20 billion we have to borrow in the coming year just to say afloat. So there it is , 10 billion in interest at the minimum.
    http://www.tribune.ie/business/news/article/2010/nov/21/jon-ihle-euimf-bailout-will-come-at-an-exorbitant-/

    So how the flying fuck are we going to be able to afford 10 billion – per annum in interest payments only, when the tax revenue per annum is currently 30 billion aprox. And it’s costing 50 billion to run the country.
    Can they not do the math, no?

    Gerryo RE: “someone somewhere had to be running a scam. even if it was something like letting money “rest” in an account for a few days and claiming the interest.” I’ve bought two houses in my life so far. Each time I asked my solicitor, when they got their hefty cheques from the bank for the mortgage, to transfer over to the solicitor of the sellers of the house, would the money rest in their account for a few days? Answer, was yes. Can be a slow process, this buying and selling of houses.
    The solicitors on each end were making interest off their clients money – making interest on money that was not theirs. How is that ethical? Scam is right.

  7.  

    Folks Ireland is one of the most expensive places in the World to live, because “the market will bare it” we pay more because we are thick ! It as simple as that. The Greeks do not pay tax so there is no point looking for exuberantly mad rates from them . The Irish pay well over the odds for everything and are a soft touch and acquiescent. Sometimes I think we are factory wired to require pain. Donegal put F.F. in second place! I despair.

  8.  

    In case my last post post should be taken in the wrong way. F.F. should have one vote their own.

  9.  

    Instead, in the most extreme example of moral hazard ever seen, the Irish government has taken upon the Irish people responsibility for mistakes they did not commit. The argument that we all borrowed too much is utterly spurious because, for the most part, we all still continue to pay our debts, and are therefore not part of the problem. It doesn’t matter what you or I borrowed if we make the repayments. In fact, we’re a major asset to the banks, so let nobody lecture you about how you lost the run of yourself. It’s nonsense.

    BOCK!!!!!!

    People need to get this through their heads, pronto: most of the debt now being paid for by the Irish banks IS NOT IRISH. Only about 30-60 billion is sovereign Irish debt – meaning created in Ireland (by all the plain people of Ireland having a few pints, according to Lenihan). The rest? That was foreign investment by US hedge funds, European investors, People in Dubai, who were thought that “Ireland, Inc” was a good investment.

    THOSE ARE THE LOSSES THAT ARE NOW BEING PAID FOR, THANKS TO FF’S DECISION TO OFFER A BLANKET GUARANTEE TO ALL DEPOSITORS IN 2008.

    It seems that most people are still operating under the incorrect idea that the debt is Irish, that it was created by the Irish “living beyond their means” blah blah blah. Well, yeah, some of it is (sovereign debt), the overwhelming majority of that debt is Eurotrash millionaires, US hedge funds, and Maid-raping Saudi Princelings. Those are the people who are being paid off through the bailout.

    So please, FF, stop pushing the Catholic buttons of “Ye Sinned, now Ye’ll do Penance”. Lying Gobshites.

    If anyone failed to “get” this – go back to the first line in this post, and read again.

  10.  

    It isn’t about the guarantee of deposits. It’s about the guarantee of bond debt.

  11.  

    I think anyone with an ounce of cop on gets it Dermot.
    To me you’re stating the obvious.
    ” the argument that we all borrowed too much is utterly spurious” isn’t it?

    In saying that you’d be suprised with the shite people come out with. Someone said to me recently, “we have to take the bailout cause we don’t have the money in the banks to pay the teachers and the nurses. The central bank doesn’t have the money to pay the salaries”. For fuck sake.

  12.  

    Durr, sorry. Nevertheless, am I correct in identifying this bond debt as not having been deposited by Mrs. Flanagan in Crumlin?

    It’s embarrassing to realise that I only “got” this in the last few days. Then again, money has always befuddled me in the way that quantum physics does (and many others, in all likelihood).

  13.  

    The deposit guarantee was never the problem. Underwriting vast losses by the banks instead of letting them collapse is what dumped our economy into the shit. Especially Anglo which was never the sort of bank used by ordinary depositors. When was the last time you saw an Anglo ATM?

  14.  

    FME, I don’t think it’s stating the obvious – you’re a smart guy, so is Bock, but don’t assume that most (or even a substantial plurality) of people get it.

    I’m not a complete idiot, and it hurts my noggin to read this stuff. I don’t want to. What do you think the X-Factor viewers must feel!

    I’m based in the US, so I’m not on the ground – so my perception is skewed slightly, based on residence. I haven’t been privileged to talk with people there ‘on the ground’, so my understanding comes from online (radio) and newspapers. The usual suspects. Somehow, I’d constructed a mental map of the problem being largely due to the domestic real estate clusterfuck. This is a huge problem, but it’s dwarfed by debt that was not produced by the people of Ireland or their deposits.

    Yet Lenihan continues to piss around with his “we all partied hard” line.

    I’m curious: have any of you asked regular people about this? What’s the understanding/perception of “the man on the street”.?

  15.  

    Well I’m a gal Dermot, but thanks. I’d say your perception is spot on.
    Some friends of mine are well informed. Others are just watching Lenihan spew his shite on RTE and don’t understand the difference between what is our soverign debt and bank debt.

    Here you might like this..
    http://golemxiv-credo.blogspot.com/2010/11/who-bankrupted-ireland.html
    Deep breaths though Dermot.

    Regarding the depositor guarantee, which guarantees individual deposits of up to 100,000. Excuse me for stating the obvious, but not one person has been paid by the government due to that particular guarantee.
    It seems a little pointless, when a bank is not allowed to go bust.. therefore you’d never need to get your 100,000 from the government. Wouldn’t it have been much cheaper to let Anglo go the wind, and pay out individual depositors up to 100K.

  16.  

    Thanks FME (sorry for the gender snafu).

    Here’s what I think happens to the brain of the average person when this is discussed on the media. The serious people start talking, and this is what the viewer hears: “Billions of Euro bla bla bla Bonds bla bla bla bal percentage bla bla bla deposits bla bla bla”….

    Remember the scene in the early Simpsons episode where we see the world through the eyes of the dog?

    If, instead, the audience was told, simply: the people of ireland (or their government, at any rate) is only responsible for – 1/10th or 1/4 of the funny money (depending on which numbers you believe), you’d move the debate onto your battlefield.

    The FF gurriers are, it seems, trying to tap into our good old friend, Catholic Guilt. We sinned, we must do penance now. It’s certainly working on some people. My dad had a chat with some FF supporting relatives last week, one of whom (a lovely lady, btw), said “Ah well, we were all living beyond our means”.

    That’s what you’re dealing with… now, had she realised that her grandchildren were going to be forced to pay for the debts (bonds, deposits, she wouldn’t care), not of fellow Irish, but some twat on Wall Street or in the UAE – would she be so brainwashable?

    I’ve spent the last 5 years working on a short animated film that explains Peak Oil to a mass audience. During that production, it was necessary to research the old propaganda cartoons of the 40s and 50s, which were masterpieces of propaganga. Their job was to explain the importance of oil & growth & inflation to the average blue collar joe, many GIs back from WW2. How to explain to a welder in Detroit that inflation is a ‘good’ thing for him? And they did! You really have to reduce these complex VERBAL ideas and abstracts into imagery, or at least the most simple language possible, if you want to reach the hard-core demographic (a large one) who just can’t/won’t ‘see’ it. Avoid technical language the switches off the listening circuit!

    This is easier said than done, however.

  17.  

    Dermot — The people of Ireland are responsible for none of the money the banks lost. If Lenihan had refused to guarantee the huge international companies who invested in bank IOUs, they would have been forced to negotiate or lose everything, and a business deal would have been worked out.

    Instead, Lenihan chose to push the entire burden onto the Irish people, absolving the banks of their responsibility, and turning the laws of the market inside-out by making sure an investor can’t lose.

    That is the reason we have today’s problem.

  18.  

    Bock – it total agreement.

    I’ve only just wrapped my mind around the relative scales of the sovereign debt (which a crock of shit) and the rest (which is a mind-warpingly enormous crock of shit).

    Suffice to say, I blew a gasket or two this week.

    Seeing as the IMF loan seems to be impossible to pay back (10 to 20 billion a year on the interest alone!, with a national tax take of 30 billion, apparently), what do you think is the Plan (because they are crooks, but they’re not stupid crooks). Have they taken Irish assets like An Post, semi-states, etc. as collateral? Then, when the debt can’t be repaid, the IMF/EU assumes ownership? Or, are they really as thick as the FFuckers?

    And for Lenny to increase VAT and drive more shoppers back to Newry! Someone cut off my internet access if this keeps up.

  19.  

    It’s impossible. It can’t work and it won’t work. This is a way of avoiding reality for another couple of years before the EU and the IMF have to face the reality of the debt problem and actually do something about it. The ECB won’t print money because the Germans have such a deep-seated aversion to inflation after their disastrous experiences in the 30s, which linger in folk memory, and which have dictated all modern German economic policy.

    Lenihan the fool, and Cowen the other foool capitulated to pressure from the ECB and saved banks that were already dead.

    Ireland is just an insignificant casualty in the war, and make no mistake: this is war-time.

  20.  

    It seems, then, to be much like 2008; desperately trying to avoid a total collapse, regardless of how stupid the actions will be in the long term. Giving the wealthy more time to stock up on gold, silver, and cans of beans.

    What is the position of the major parties, regarding default? I’m guessing FG/LAB will try to be “serious” and work within the system (well, until it falls down around their heads, anyway).

    Would it be right to say that the only parties who would support a default will be SF/SP/PBP/ULA, etc.?

    Best they can hope for is what? 20ish seats, combined in the GE?

    Pat Kenny had some spineless twit on yesterday warning the country that defaulting wasn’t an option, using spurious comparisons with the Israelis nuclear arsenal vs. Russia in the 1980s. FFS – where do they find these fools!

    *

    I’ve been involved with Peak Oil/collapse fora over the last few years, and have been preparing for it seriously since about 2005. Still, it still comes with a jolt to see the predictions come through in real life. There’s been an ongoing (and academic but pointless) back and forth in these fora about whether the crash will be fast or slow. I’ve always tended towards slow, but am reminded of the Hemingway character who, when asked how he went bust replied: “First, slowly, then quickly”.

  21.  

    Bock, eternally gratefull for your writings on economics and I feel many others are and some who are not happy that you are bringing this information forward. Please keep writing and explaining because this is a good path to thread. Why not a study circle on your blogg?. To begin with: What is a bondholder and what function do they play in what is happening in Ireland?.

  22.  

    As far as economics lingo is concerned I’ve always been an ignoramus, more or less.

    So reading a thread like this is very informative for me.

    In fact, a lot of the stuff being discussed in the media for the past few months is all new to me. For instance, I never knew what a bondholder was until recently.

    Though wait, I’m still not clear about that.

    I think of them as some kind of uber capitalist killer whales at the top of the global economic food chain, compared to which I am in the sardine category or thereabouts.

    I mean, can we put names and faces on these people? Would our own JP MacManus be one of them, for example?

    And thanks for that link, FME. It’s a little window on a world from which the vast majority of the “little people” (otherwise known as citizens) such as myself are shut out and kept ignorant of.

    “Maquiladora” – now that’s definitely a new one on me.

    And yet all of this is just more of what Leonard Cohen sang about in Everybody Knows. Every ordinary schlep or Spailpín such as myself who is not brainwashed by the casino owners knows the dice are loaded.

    (The 21% of the voters in Donegal who voted for Fianna Fáil obviously have access to some kind of arcane knowledge that empirical science has not yet developed the capacity to apprehend. I think it may be related to black hole economics as perfected by Fianna Fáil – or even “anti-matter” that was recently trapped by scientists, including two Irish scientists, at the Cern nuclear research centre in Switzerland. It may indeed be related to the superior intellectual powers of some Donegal people, as noted by Flann O’Brien when he said no Donegal person speaking Irish ever used the same word more than once.)

    We may not know the who, the where or the how of the dice being loaded but we know that “everybody rolls with their fingers crossed”.

    Maybe it’s some consolation that the giant Ponzi scheme of global capitalism is banjaxed, as you demonstrated very cogently, dermotoconnor, on the “Re-inventing Ireland” thread.

    It’s finished, caput … The parrot is dead. Though it’s hard to imagine anything other than some kind of science fiction dystopia succeeding it.

    I think this is a particularly black weekend for this country. We have two individuals, Brian Cowen and Brian Lenihan, who are implicated to their necks in the covert criminal dealings that have ruined the country negotiating the terms of the purported rescue operation.

    It would probably be only another charade, given the acquiescence of the main opposition parties in the misgovernment of the country, but we should have had a general election as soon as the economic abyss now engulfing us became apparent, so that those politicians directly responsible for it could be held democratically accountable.

    I think they call it “democracy”.

    I can well imagine that the paper shredders are working overtime in a lot of government departments these days in an attempt to conceal incriminating information from those likely to take over after the election in January.

    And to sum up this rambling rumination, sorry, Bock – the foregoing is only a pale imitation of your savagely indignant posts.

    In relation to the current situation my power of expression is sadly inadequate.

  23.  

    Believe it or not, Charles, our posts crossed there.

  24.  

    PS: Bock and Dermot, in relation to the question of the rationale for the current “solution” even Dan O’Brien, a mainstream economist whose article in The Irish Times I read yesterday in an effort to make some sense of the current imbroglio, said that it was only “kicking the can down the road”.

    So really it’s the Mr Micawber approach of “hoping something will turn up”.

  25.  

    Spailpín Fánach, you might enjoy Dmitri Orlov, auther of “Reinventing Collapse”. He’s been calling the situation for years. Here he is from early 2009 (when the economy was ‘recovering’). His basic thesis is that the US is heading for a USSR style collapse.

    short vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPgfOShs_Mk
    full vid: http://fora.tv/2009/02/13/Dmitry_Orlov_Social_Collapse_Best_Practices

    blog: http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/
    recent guest post by a reader: http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2010/11/americathe-grim-truth.html

    And another great econoblog, “Automatic Earth”:http://theautomaticearth.blogspot.com/
    The two writers, who post under the pen-names “Stoneleigh” and “Illargi”, used to write for the oildrum.com, a peak oil blog. Their thesis was that economic collapse would be the first symptom of peak oil. So far, so ‘good’. Whether you agree with their exact analysis or not, they do a great job of assembling some truly impressive links. Not a site for the faint of heart. They’re in the “deflation” camp, fwiw. Not sure I agree, but they’ve been pretty accurate so far.

    One thing I’ve noticed about doomers is that they tend to be more accurate than optimists over the long term, but their predictions of TIMING are usually a little off, but usually by little more than a year or so.

    Neither of these guys (Orlov, or AE) are that most annoying sort of ‘expert’ – the collapse bandwagon jumper. These people have been calling the present state far earlier than 2007/8, along with many others (few of whom have had much airtime on the MSM).

    Anyway, no point in littering up the thread further with a gazillion links. Anyone who wants more, shoot me an email: dermot@idleworm.com, and I’ll send you some bookmarks.

  26.  

    Bond holders are people who have bought an IOU issued by the government. The government promises to buy back the bond (IOU)after a period of time with a predetermined interest rate.

    Bond holders accept that there is a risk that they may not get paid at the end of the term of the bond, so to compensate for this risk, they charge an interest rate which is proportionate to the risk of default.

    In our case we will sell a government bond for €85,000,000,000 (85Bn) at an interest rate of 6.75% over 10(?) years. However the bond holders in this case might demand collateral which may or may not include ESB, An Post, Bord Gais, DDA (state assets), nobody quite knows as yet.

    Debt = Slavery!

    Zeitgeist will explain what bonds are and how the markets work.
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912#

    Another movie about central banks, especially the IMF! Economic hitman too….. Scary!
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912#

  27.  

    Correction: the bank bondholders bought IOUs issued by the banks, not the government.

  28.  

    Yes you are technically correct but because the government has guaranteed (and nationalised) the banks, the IOUs are government bonds, also the EU and IMF will not buy bonds from banks, they only work with governments who in turn sell their bonds to the banks who have traded them with the EU central bank.

  29.  

    Technically correct?

    That ridiculous guarantee is what this whole discussion is about.

  30.  

    This video is useful for simpletons like myself to get a grasp of where we are on the economy;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ml2zItXuL8E

  31.  

    Bock, thanks for explaining and all the others who contribute by injecting beams of light into the foggy areas of my brain. Yes Spailpin our paths cross and that is good and somehow we are moving forward in a new direction. I feel we all need to ask and learn and grow. Cracking the codes of economics is as things look now in your wee republic a kind of health insurance and not just the health of the body. I really want to understand what is happening in Ireland thus my questions may be very basic. As I see it the so called government has deserted its duty to protect the populace and put the country in harms way leaving the arena vacant for those who are prepared to shoulder responsibility and lead Ireland out from a dark place. “Politics is Choice” as Olof Palme repeatidly said. I shall now plod through the snow and minus 12c to give the horses hay. Good night Ireland.

  32.  

    Dermot, RE: “what do you think is the Plan (because they are crooks, but they’re not stupid crooks). Have they taken Irish assets like An Post, semi-states, etc. as collateral? Then, when the debt can’t be repaid, the IMF/EU assumes ownership? Or, are they really as thick as the FFuckers?”

    I wouldn’t say they – the IMF are thick at all, but the two brains are.
    Assets strippers is all they are. Here’s a link that explains it very clearly for me. It’s not rocket science. It’s easy to comprehend really. I don’t think the average person is not capable of understanding this, it’s that they are lied to and place too much trust in people who seem to know more.

    http://monetary-intelligence.com/goodbye-ireland-%E2%80%93-it-was-nice-knowing-you/

    ” As part of the proposed IMF/ECB bailout package, the Daily Telegraph reports that the Irish government will be forced to sell its stake in Aer Lingus, the national airline, as well as its lottery licence and its shares in Bord Gáis Éireann (Irish Gas Board) and the Electricity Supply Board (ESB). Some people will say that this is fair because, after all, Ireland did borrow the money and therefore it has to pay the money back somehow; and if Ireland cannot pay the money back, then it will have to lose some of its assets – just like a homeowner who cannot service his/her mortgage will have his/her home repossessed. But, what should happen to these state assets if it was revealed that Ireland did not actually borrow any real money from these foreign banks? What should happen to these state assets if it was revealed that the banks who loaned Ireland the money, ‘counterfeited’ the money in the first place?”

    I think there’s going to be an announcement tomorrow on the terms drawn up with the IMF. Goodbye Ireland it was nice knowing you indeed. Fucking sharks. I don’t understand why this fucking government, who’ll be gone in a few weeks have this power. A four year fucking budget, and they’ll be gone in a few weeks. Give me a break. There is no democracy in this country. The Donegal by-election was 18 months overdue.. says it all. Why isn’t there an election now? Before the budget. Why don’t they do the honourable thing and step aside for the good of the nation. They are just shameless cunts. Excuse my language, I can’t think of more appropriate words to describe them though.

  33.  

    FF code Rescue package
    Decoded means destruction package
    And now calamity Mary speak
    We have one of the highest minimum wage rates in the country. ( RTE news at one on polling day)

  34.  

    @BFH

    Thank you for that linky.

    I think that another YouTube video from RepusAmgine is salient.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/RepusAmgine

  35.  

    Great Post, Bock. Just wish you didn’t have to post such a thing – that it was fiction, and not non. The whole thing is just CRAZY!

    So much good stuff to respond to. Pardon my rambling – hope it’s interesting.

    Jack 4 – Bockers have influence? Would it be that you were right…

    FME 6 – Of course they can do the math! They know that the numbers don’t work out, but as long as they get their piece of the carcass, what do they care? And also of course, the 3 day hold on checks is at least also so that the banks can make some extra money. Why shouldn’t they, if nobody complains?

    Dermot 9 – To repeat: the whole thing is just CRAZY! How can people let them get away with it? Maybe there really is nothing to do – the world is controlled by the bankers. I mean, it just makes sense that whomever caused this mess, or at least took the calculated risk, should be the ones who should clean it up and pay for it. But things don’t always go the sensible way now, do they?

    Isn’t this the same thing that happened/is happening in the US? That the govt (meaning taxpayer’s money) comes in, bails out the banks, big mortgage companies like Fannie and Freddie Mae and big insurance companies like AIG, supposedly claiming that it’s going to help all of the simple, small citizenry, but with just the small condition that they eventually have to pay for all of it – some-unclear-how.

    FME 16 – Let no one ever forget your gal-ity!

    Dermot 17 – That peak oil stuff is also pretty scary, and I think that most people just cognatively dissonate it away also. But I’ve heard that there are new theories that the oil is not of animal origin, but is made inanimately in the depths of the earth. Wouldn’t that push off the problem somewhat? And, according to the Zeitgeist film that someone recommended in another post, there’s enough alternative energy out there, especially geothermal, so that we don’t really have to keep burning all of the oil, except for those wonderful people who profit by doing so (little shareholders, too, BTW).

    And thanks Dermot (and others) for all of the links, although I don’t have time to look at them now.

    Bock 20 – Good follow up analysis, seems to me. Also according to Zeitgeist, the debt problem – not only of Ireland – is really unsolvable, because the whole system is based on every increasing debt – there’s really NO way out, within the system. So what can be done (If anything)? Barter – I’ll trade you my a dozen eggs for your two pounds of carrots. But how do you buy a house over 30 yrs that way??

    Spailpin (long!) 23 – How to unload the Ponzi dice – THAT is the question!

    Too bad your two “Brians” don’t have two responsible “Brains” in their heads (hope that that wasn’t overly libelous…). FME, I see that you beat me to the Brian/Brain pun in 33 next…

    FME 33 (rhymes) – Amazing a scary Telegraph article. Don’t know if I can excuse your language, though – coming from such a nice “gal” as yourself. But I suppose that the situation is even THAT bad!

  36.  

    This is the ” Nutshell ” story.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsnight/paulmason

  37.  

    Screw paying 5 billion a year, we should just sell Leitrim to the krauts, they’ve been wanting a bit of lebensraum for a while now

  38.  

    I don’t know about liebensraum. It depends what kind of lieben they get up to, but I have no objection to giving them a bit of lebensraum. They might keep the place tidier.

  39.  

    It has been obviouse for sometime now that the country is in serious trouble and I spend less time reading and listening to the ongoing reports of the meltdown.
    I thought I was beyond shock. Hearing our leader report that the irish peoples pension fund is to be spent got me sitting up though. I am not sure if the populace realises how serious this is.
    If I understand it correctly, people have paid their PRSI contributions and part of this money was invested as part of the NPRF. If this money is given to the countries debtors now then where will the peoples future pensions come from.
    There will be no recovery or increase in tax take to male up this loss for a very long time.
    The people have been robbed.

  40.  

    The IMF were seen last night leaving from Dublin airport, My thinking is that they just had to get out of ” Dodge ” How could anyone, With the ability to play with an abacus make a statement about our ” Recovery ” when all basic principles have been decimated by a Government who at this stage must be seen to be hallucinating.

    Lower the min wage, cut Social welfare, increase Vat , Which will make just about every item purchased more expensive, Pour the pension fund into a black hole.

    Its a slow death sentence.

    Will an incoming Government have any powers of reform or will they just recieve the massive salary for holding the Poisoned Chalice.

  41.  

    BuilderFH – I said this in Cleaning up Ireland. Re: being robbed: I think that Bock might have to change his name, because he can no longer claim to be The definitive Robber. There are others out there who seem to be doing a much better job of it than he ever could.

    Things really don’t look so good, do they? People put away money in a pension fund for their whole lives, expecting to retire somewhat comfortably on it. And in the span of one govt working with local and foreign bankers, it’s just all gone like that – POOF! Social Insecurity in America, too – unless, of course, they just print more money. That’s always a good long term solution…

  42.  

    According to Mr Chopra (it seems he dislikes the use of his first name by strangers )the “deal” is Government policy! F,F, have by a mixture of the actions of Vlad the impaler and the Soviets during WW11 destroyed Ireland for generations to come. Vlad impaled 27,000 of his own people on three stumps in order to disgust an invading Turkish army and it worked. The Soviets ceded land to the invaders leaving behind “burnt earth” useless to the enemy and their own people. Not even a Government made up of all the God’s and the Super Heroes could get us out of the shite now, and yet over 7,000 brain dead buckets of shit voted F,F, No,1 in Donegal? As the Americans might say go figure!

  43.  

    As the Americans might say also, stupid dumb fucks.

  44.  

    Why do you have to be American to say that?

    Gary, I think you’re exaggerating a little – ALL the Gods and the Super Heroes COULD get you out of the shite now. But it still might not be easy…

  45.  

    Some1LovesU I regret that F.F. have put us so far into the shit that NO ONE can save us. F.F. have given away any means of recovery for a potential loan they claim we do not need. Our pension funds GONE, our NTMA cash reserves Gone and for what? To save Portugal and Spain and of course the Euro. The Bank shares have jumped in value in spite of the fact that they will be in state ownership soon. This would normally mean shareholders getting nothing, but wait this is Ireland. The shareholders can expect to receive compensation at boom time values.

  46.  

    It would seem that the rate average is now 5.8%. Most of the pressure for this high rate came from the German government to help appease the German voter/tax payer. Well in that case we should stop buying German made goods. I know most of you don’t have bmw’s and the like. But did you know that all the sugar we consume in Ireland comes from Germany! Stop using sugar…Just a thought.

  47.  

    FME is right, they are a bunch of asset strippers. Perhaps its time to think the unthinkable , get the fuck out of the EU.

  48.  

    Wait a minute – why don’t you all just buy bank shares and bonds instead of sugar, and then everything will be fine?

    (Sorry – not really a time for jokes)

  49.  

    Point I was making in last post may appear to be amusing to some.
    Point is, at least on a personal level we could vent our anger by not buying German. Simple as that! An organised campaign at local level, would be a good start. If nothing else it will embarrass our gutless government and maybe…just maybe give us back some self respect.

  50.  

    Hey Long John, how many more cul-de-sacs you gonna try to lead people into?…………..hmmm?

  51.  

    Maybe I’m missing something here but I don’t understand how this deal could be called a “bailout”.

    As Fintan O’Toole said in today’s Irish Times, “This is not a rescue plan. It is the longest ransom note in history: do what we tell you and you may, in time, get your country back”.

    Maybe it’s due to my ignorance of economics but I see this whole thing as more of a political collapse than an economic collapse.

    Democracy in Europe and worldwide has been subverted by capitalism.

    And in this country, people who should be in jail, the members of the Fianna Fáil led government, have subverted democracy by refusing to hold a general election and instead proceeding without a mandate from the Irish people to sign away the country in order to protect the interests of themselves and their ilk in this country and the interests of the international capitalist elites abroad.

    To make matters even worse, it’s not going to work. All we have, again to quote Fintan O’Toole, is “a punitive short-sighted and utterly unsustainable deal that will not solve the Irish crisis and that reduces the EU to the status of a banker’s bailiff”.

  52.  

    Spailpin, it has a name its called Disaster Capitalism

  53.  

    Spailpin Fanach. Absolutly, Its not going to work, Those who masterminded the entire debacle wont feel the effects, And those who will had no part or choice in the events which will take over their lives.
    I have asked here before but did not recieve an answer, What powers of Reform will an incoming Government have, If any ?

    Long John Silver. Now is hardly the time to ” Boycott ” German goods as some expression of resistance, Apart from BMW’s How do you replace ALDI and LIDL for the Irish people to feed themselves on a budget ?
    The view isnt so great from over the barrel.

  54.  

    Bless you Norma…XXX

  55.  

    Strange.

  56.  

    Sodacake. Just wondering , Seeing that Cowan will have sufficient time served by Feb 2011 for all the Glorious pensions and benefits accorded a ” Servant of the Public ” Is that a further sign of his contempt for the Citizens as to the timing of a GE ?
    At this stage to deprive him of that is essential, Must find further detail.
    ps. Those pesky beemers were never made for irish roads ! And in there is a multiple of truth and lies !

  57.  

    Norma see my post No,44 It no longer matters who is in Government. F.F. have seen to that!

  58.  

    Norma, FF are/is a very dishonest politic/gangester grouping. They really don`t care what anyone thinks of them, they really have no interest in giving ( just taking ). They really don`t care who is hurt by their actions.

    They only care to perpetuate their scams/control/dealings, to enrich their own, no matter what it costs the rest of us.

    The IMF have discovered their Kith and Kin in FF.

  59.  

    Gary. Thanks, Have a bit of info overload, Missed that.
    Looks like now the sharing of valid and directional information within some kind of ” People ” directed structure might be needed, Basically a ” Roadmap of Abyss ” The pooling of Info and Advice for Citizens.
    The worst part of all of this will be a Government generated feeling of hopelessness, The breakdown of heretofore valueable bonds of Friendship and Trust.
    We will see Health and Education fall apart as morale hits rock bottom and people are forced into situations they have most likely spent their lives avoiding.
    A new direction, New ways of thinking and living, Thats what i’m going to focus on.

  60.  

    @ At soda bread…uups cake. Not trying to lead anyone anywhere. If you read the comment and take a breath, you will see that I am just expressing a thought.
    What other cul-de-sacs am I trying to “lead” people down..hmmmmm?
    Norma I said german goods. Most of the goods found in the supermarkets you mentioned are not german goods. Anyway it was just a thought. Some people might find it to be a good idea.

  61.  

    Careful while reversing LJS

  62.  

    Dont know which thread to post this on, But for basic starters could everyone please sign this petition.
    http://www.fintanotoole.ie/petition

  63.  

    Norma, I’m kind of feeling that hopelessness. As in what difference can I make. I don’t want to become apathetic, but you’d just drive yourself around the bend with it all.

    You’re some piece of work Sodacake. LJS has the decency to explain his suggestion and you put in one of your weird little digs.. and your ‘bless yous’ are bizarre. Grow up would you. Might be a bit late at this stage though.

    Some1LovesU. Not to kick the bollix out of everything.. but I didn’t say only Americans could say stupid dumb fucks. It was in relation to Gary’s comment, as Americans might say ‘go figure’.

  64.  

    FME Not buying German goods will be my way of protecting my sanity during this insane period in our countries history. Might sound like the antics of a bold child. But shit, if it makes me feel a little better, then why not.
    As for Sodacake? Ah well…..whatever floats your boat.

  65.  

    FME, the discourse between myself and LJS is just that. Don`t get your knickers in a twist.

    Norma, already signed up, bless you again.

  66.  

    Sodacake. We make life as simple or as complicated as we choose, Me, I’m of the ” Simple ” variety and as the temp plummets tonight and I know what I have to do in the coming days, I appreciate your ” Bless you’s ” Warm and simple thats my take.
    I wont entertain any apathy, Lets keep it movin, Never decided whether I was a ” Sprinter or Stayer ” Life has proven both, These days flexibility of mind is the key.

  67.  

    I hear ya LJS.. something is better than__ – well, gritting your teeth as Cowan announces he’s giving our country away to the sharks. You do whatever you think will make a small difference and don’t apologise to people who think they have more radical ideas…I won’t apologise for my dealings with a bank, even if it’s pittance in the overall scale of things.

    The bless yous seem to come from sodacake when someone is in agreement with him. Seems a little snide if you ask me. Warm and snide.

    Cowan is the most evasive, arrogant fucker I’ve ever had the misfortune to listen to.
    Asked on the interest payments at the conference, he said it would take too long to explain. It’s been quoted as an average interest percent. What does that mean? What are the exact terms? He said it can vary. So it’ll be dependent on when it’s drawn down then is it? I suppose it was a less arrogant response than “go figure it out yourself. ” Seems to me it’s half incompetence, half covering up their dealings with Anglo. So to cover it all up they’ll drag the country down with them.
    It just boils my blood, I have to go listen to some music.

  68.  

    FME, bless you too, just in case you feel left out. On other threads i have agreed with some of your posts. A little late but better late then never hmmmm?

  69.  

    Sodacake 54 – Found it:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shock_Doctrine

    Part 5 introduces the Disaster Capitalism Complex where the author describes how companies have learnt to profit from disasters…

    Paul B. Farrell from the Dow Jones Business News stated “you must read what may be the most important book on economics in the 21st century”…the book contains “a rich description of the political machinations required to force unsavory economic policies on resisting countries.”…

    Don’t know if this applies to Ireland yet – depends on your how resistiveness develops.

    FME 65 – also not to belabor this, but since you both said “as the Americans might say”, it implies Americans as opposed to other people (doesn’t it?).

    69 – I don’t think that his “bless you”s are snide – I think that they’re cute! But Sodacake – no need to rile FME up even more by blessing her, too!

  70.  

    We might say stupid dumb fucks for FF voters ourselves here in Ireland also Some1.. is that ok now? It was in relation to Gary’s comment.. “as Americans might say ‘go figure’”… I didn’t say as *only* Americans might say. Or opposed to anyone else. Is that ok then? Sorted?
    I’m not rile up at all.. just have a pain in my arse. I’ll take a break, I think. Ciao

  71.  

    OK now, OK then, and sorted (?). Have a nice break…

  72.  

    I can’t believe the creditors do not share the pain. It’s theft. From the Irish taxpayer (and also the poor and the sick and the unemployed) straight to the bankers and the bank investors, wherever they might live.

    Austin, TX

  73.  

    This bailout is likely to be good for lots of people, excepting principally the people of Ireland. Like it says here. AIG == Ireland. The story is the AIG bailout was not really a bailout of that company but rather of the big banks and the “system”. A couple years on, AIG itself is still foundering.

    http://blogs.forbes.com/nathanvardi/2010/11/22/is-ireland-europes-aig/

  74.  

    Bock, thanks for all information on the banks and the bail out and the workings of the IMF and the ECB. I’m in a phase of understanding what is happening in Ireland and the most immediate feeling is a state of shock and awe. Being the dramatic person I am and watching tv the other night as your finance minister in Brussels rushed to some table to sign some papers about some loan I could not help feeling he was signing away the future of a country. A relative of mine in Norway desribed how his father in 1945 in Norway captured Herr Quisling and his followers. The trauma of occupation still lingers on in Norway and there is a sensitivity as to the sovereignty of Norway still to this day. The damage being caused to the Irish people surpasses what Quisling caused in Norway. In Ireland generations are being signed away to a perpetual state of serfdom by members of the Irish government. Quisling was brought to book in Oslo .

  75.  

    Quisling! there I said it.

  76.  

    Charles. Will anyone in Government have the balls to revisit this, Problem solved.
    http://www.sovereignindependent.com?p=9970

  77.  

    Someone Loves You, it is a very very important book, very detailed but so readable, easy to understand. I have given the name of it on 2 other threads here. The Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein. A real eye opner as to how we are decieved on all fronts.

  78.  

    Norma! bet this information is not in the head of the Irish people. When asset stripping kicks into action then what happens the oil fields and gas?. Is pillage another word?. Norma! thanks for the link, I’m only at the beginning of my research on Ireland so I’m still on shakey ground. Incidently this relavive of mine works on an oil platform and his job is to litteraly monitor the flow of oil to the ships below. He has strong views about the wealth of Norway staying in Norway.

  79.  

    Norma, when it became apparent that the oil in Norwegian waters will one day terminate the question arose as to what to do with the money. Did the government in Oslo ask the finance department? No. They asked a philosopher. His reply is what we see today. The money is to be put in a fund to be held for future generations of Norwegian people. And that is why they do not use this money,

  80.  

    It may very well be said that some of this money comes from Ireland.

  81.  

    I have relatives in Norway, I will check out their thinking on said subject, As you said though, Its very likely its not uppermost in either Norwegian or Irish minds.

  82.  

    Charles. Ahem ! Now would this be the money we ” Gave them ” They might now kindly ” Loan ” us ?
    Now wheres my calculater, 30 billion barrels at 60$ a barrel ?
    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6AS3W120101129

  83.  

    By contrast, as far as I am aware, we have nobody on production platforms monitoring the flow of gas or oil.

  84.  

    Well at least it is a start to know what assets Ireland has, few know abroad that there are such oil and gas deposits and perhaps this is in the interest of certain people. Would be good to know the economic outflow from Ireland to Norway and if so is this the money they will lend you. That would mean Norway takes 25% of your oil and gas and do they pay royalties on this?.

  85.  

    Neither Norway nor the other members of the consortium pay anything for the gas.

  86.  

    So Bock could this mean that when Norway takes your gas for free and sells it they then lend you this money which should be yours back to you at an interst rate?. Is not this peculiar?.

  87.  

    It’s dreadful. Is this common knowledge in Norway?

  88.  

    Bock, this knowledge is difficult to access in Norway as the perception of Ireland is not one of having such resources. Rather the sterotype picture of Ireland blocks critical thinking even in Scandinavia.

  89.  

    Bock, if the oil and gas on the western sea board of Ireland is comparable to findings in other areas of the UK and even Norway and this information is reserved and difficult to obtain and the goal of the IMFis asset stripping and forgive me for sounding paranoid, is it not a thought that eyes are being directed to what lyes below the surface?.

  90.  

    Yes.

    It’s theft.

  91.  

    Bock, thanks to your blogg I am more informed and my hope is that the Irish realise what is at stake.

  92.  

    As information begins to flow into the public domain you can clearly see the unfolding of a heinious crime committed by men and women in a government against a defenceless people both born and unborn. The first republic has failed its people miserably and what will come is unclear. But the country will never be the same, one way or the other.

  93.  

    Norma 84 – 30 billion @ $60/bbl, plus all that nat gas – that’s a (pardon the expression) shitload of money! And you people don’t get ANY of it??

    o.O

    Seems to me that the Big Money People know that Ireland is easy prey.

  94.  

    Someone1Lovesyou. I think the world knows now that Ireland is easy prey and apparantly very generous.
    Truly sad though isnt it , A very tough fight ahead.
    Maddening to see ” News ” that the Social Welfare figures have dropped, As if that was something positive, When the dogs in the street know its because people are leaving in droves.
    I hate that expression ” What could have been ” And now its so relevant.

  95.  

    why can’t we sell off some of our assets to sort out this mess we’re in at the moment? would it not make sense to sell anglo irish bank? simply flog it as a bank with a lot of debt. i don’t think there is anything which says you can not sell a loss making asset. €1 euro as a starting bid sounds about right. better still sell it back to the guys who previously ran it. let them sort out the mess they created in the first place.

  96.  

    http://www.diarmuidoflynn.com/pages.php?action=article_detail&articleId=1330&sendfrom=TopTenArticles
    http://www.diarmuidoflynn.com/pages.php?action=article_detail&articleId=1331&sendfrom=TopTenArticles
    Links to two letters I’ve sent to every major news outlet in the country, without a single response. Oh, the apathy – how did we become so docile?
    Regardless, and even if I’m on my own, I will be walking on this Sunday, March 6th – the first steps of protest.

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