Killiney Eviction

 Posted by on April 19, 2012  Add comments
Apr 192012
 

Wait a minute now.  Let me just process this Killiney eviction story that RTÉ is getting in such a lather about.

On the face of it, the facts are truly shocking.  Here’s a man of 71, and his 63-year-old wife being ejected from their home by bailiffs.  Out on the side of the street with nowhere to go, in such destitution that they have to set up a leaky tent outside their former home, the couple huddle together for warmth while their neighbours look on in outrage.  Meanwhile, the brutal thugs hired by the banks have control of the family home where all the old couple’s treasured possessions lie unprotected from curious, grubby fingers.

An appalling scenario, reminiscent of the worst excesses of nineteenth-century landlordism in Ireland, as the man himself, Brendan Kelly, so tellingly pointed out.  Innocent poor people thrown out on the side of the road.

Well, maybe not.

Earlier reports failed to mention, for instance, that Brendan Kelly is himself a landlord who owns many rental properties around Dublin.  They failed to mention that the bank secured a repossession order against the couple two years ago.   And they failed to mention that Kelly wouldn’t sell any of his properties to pay off the money he owed to Irish Nationwide.  Of course, when I speak of the money he owes to Irish Nationwide, I really mean the money he owes to us, the Irish people, who now own that bank.  And when that putrid bank, now part of IBRC, writes off a two-million-euro debt, that’s €2 million more that we — you and I — must pump into the bank to compensate for the loss.

Did I mention that the poor old codgers, who have no children, were living in a €3-million five-bedroomed mansion in one of the most exclusive areas of Dublin?    They needed a house with five bedrooms so that they could move to a new bedroom when they got bored sleeping in the last one.  This is a basic human right.

Another thing RTÉ overlooked in its zeal to protect those who share the DNA of its executives is this: the bailiffs were not working for IBRC.  They were working for the Sheriff who was executing an order issued by a court, and therefore all the talk by Brendan Kelly about phoning the bank was just so much tosh.  He knew the order had been issued.  He had two years’ advance notice, and yet, somehow, the couple found themselves out on the street without so much as a jacket to shelter them from the rain.  Two years’ notice, and yet he didn’t take the elementary precaution of moving his computer or his files, even though these form the basis for his business.

One other thing RTÉ didn’t press too much was Brendan Kelly’s arrangement with Fingers Fingleton.   You see, ten years ago, in 2002, Fingers was prepared to lend a 61-year-old guy €2 million towards the cost of a €3.75 million house.  That’s what I said.  €3.75 million.

Now, of course, it’s true that the money might have been lent to his wife, Asta, who was 53 at the time, and maybe the loan was over 17 years, bringing it up to 2019.  This is not yet clear.  What is clear is that the couple weren’t able to meet the repayments on their house  and it just so happens that those loan repayments were owed to a bank owned by you and me.  Since it’s been covered extensively in previous items on this site, we won’t go into the reasons why we own this bank.  But we do.

Oddly for an accountant, Brendan wasn’t quite able to recall when he first fell into arrears.  He thinks it might be about three years ago.   His memory also lets him down when asked about the date of the repossession order, but he thinks it might have been about two years ago.  And so, for two years, Brendan did precisely what you’d expect an accountant to do: nothing.  He didn’t even move his office out of the house.

Now, as I said, Brendan and Asta own a sizeable portfolio of property around the more salubrious parts of Dublin including apartments in Simmonscourt Castle and Ballintyre Hall.  This is not the lower end of the market.  Brendan and Asta are doing pretty well compared to most.  How many Ballsbridge apartments do you own?

Let’s get our heads clear now.  They knew the bailiffs were coming.  They’d known about it for two years.  There was a court order.  They didn’t have the money to settle the debt, and yet they stayed in their €3.75 million luxury mansion, instead of doing what the rest of the country  would have to do: get out.

It never occurred to them that maybe it would be a good idea to move into one of the many other properties they own all over Dublin.  Why?  Presumably because they might have to mix with the lower orders.  How could one possibly survive in an ordinary luxury apartment without even a gated community around one for comfort and security?  Ridiculous!

And so they clung on, buoyed up by the moral support of their neighbours in their own €3.75 million mansions who were utterly shocked and outraged at such inhuman treatment of an elderly millionaire.  Surely he should be allowed to live out his remaining years in the opulence he’d grown accustomed to.

Now, of course, if the story happened to be about Anto and Sharon from Killinarden, I’m not so sure it would have been front-page and prime-time news, but this action by the Sheriff was a strike at the very heart of South Dublin affluence, the place from which our national broadcaster derives its reason for existence.  The place that defined not only the attitudes and ethos of RTÉ but also provided its management and even defined the very accent in which the station speaks.

In the RTÉ world, Ireland is divided in two: Dublin and TheCountry.

Dublin does not include Tallaght, Ballyfermot, Neilstown or any of those appendages that exist solely to provide stock stereotypes for bad drama.  Dublin is anything south of Donnybrook, but excluding embarrassing local authority housing estates in the likes of Dun Laoghaire.

TheCountry is the rest of us muck-savages, or the majority of the population, as we like to describe ourselves.

Why is this story so big on the airwaves?  Simple: it’s the first time anything like this happened in Dublin, the only place that matters.  Meanwhile, in a development so laden with irony, the Occupy movement has moved in to support the Kellys, even though their transaction with Fingleton was the sort of thing that bankrupted Irish Nationwide in the first place.

A peculiar, and sympathetic, form of ageism permeates the reportage, with the couple described as “elderly”.  Brendan Kelly is a sprightly and razor-sharp 71, while his wife, Asta, is a woman of working age.  Neither of them are people in their dotage, and yet the implication seems to be that they were a bit confused when they got drawn into this mortgage, or else that they can’t understand what’s happening to them now.  Brendan wasn’t so confused that he couldn’t consult his computer to keep track of the various tenancies he makes money from.

The poor old devil isn’t that confused, God bless him, and neither is his incredibly ancient 63-year-old wife, who just happens to be a year older than Enda Kenny, the man who heads our government, and who is never described by anyone as elderly.  She’s five years younger than Vincent Browne — try calling him elderly and see what he tells you.

It’s time to call this story for what it is.  Bullshit.

Here’s a couple who owe a State-owned bank €2 million but want to hold onto their high-value mansion while at the same time renting out luxurious apartments all over Dublin, a couple who pull a ridiculous stunt by setting up a tent in the street instead of doing what the rest of us would have to do — move into a smaller place and get used to it.

So this childless couple can’t have the pleasure of occupying five bedrooms?  So what?  Get over it, and stop bombarding us with a non-story when real people are being evicted all over the country without a choice of alternative properties to live in.

I find it nauseating that this well-off man should insult the memory of those evicted in the hard times by comparing himself to the oppressed Irish of the nineteenth century.  No en-suite bathroom?  This is truly a First World Problem.

 

UPDATE

It turns out that the Kellys also own 13 apartments in London.

 

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More Bock the Robber posts on the economy

 

 

 

 

  111 Responses to “Killiney Eviction”

Comments (111)
  1.  

    The real tragedies are the sub-prime repossessions which happen every Monday in the High Court.

    No RTE cameras or questions in the Dáil. The only coverage they receive is a short article in the Irish Times.

    Here’s a typical example: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0313/1224313201756.html

  2.  

    Great article!

  3.  

    Superbly put. I had this debate on twitter @ 9am this morning. The picture painted was inaccurate.

  4.  

    What an article. Great piece of persuasive writing. Who cares if it’s true (and it probably all is), it’s still a great story and well told.

  5.  

    Excellent article – reflected mine own thoughts throughout!
    Take a bow!

  6.  

    Well said. The man is running a well orchestrated media campaign. He barricaded himself into his house and then shouted shennanigans when he was forcibly removed by the balliffs. And he did all this with the Irish Independent reporters and photographers standing by. Because thats what they do you know, stand around affluent gated areas in case someone gets evicted. Crock. Of. Shit. Pay back the money, ring Joe and fuck off Kelly. Excuse my french.

  7.  

    fuck them greedy beggers good times are up if i couldn’t pay my rent in one of his properties he would evict me

  8.  

    Super article

    Pat Kenny didn’t press the Kelly’s hard enough and Damien O’Reilly lost control of the liveline discussion

    This article hit the points that RTÉ failed to do

  9.  

    Interesting that they were evicted the day before their near neighbour, Gavin O’Reilly, was ousted as Chief Exec of the Indo Group,days. Which covered the story. Justice rightly done on both days.

  10.  

    Brian: Gavin is their neighbour? Seriously?

  11.  

    excellent article.

  12.  

    I wanted to punch this fucker after he began comparing his situation to the 19th century evictions, yeah right! House worth millions in a posh part of dublin, he owns other properties and both he and his wife are well heeled elite professionals who had 2 years to get their shit together. Fuck right off, no sympathy for them. And the icing on the cake is that they’ve wasted garda time+resources with their bullshit. Idiots.

  13.  

    Bock, super article. I was listening to this on Newstalk earlier and I said to myself, “heh, can’t wait to hear Bock’s take on it”.

  14.  

    I read somewhere last night that they have a son who rents one of their properties, a four bedroom house that he shares with his girfriend. So I reckon they can scooch in a little and make a bit of a granny flat vibe happen. What really boiled my blood was hearing Eamonn Gilmore on the radio this afternoon offering to speak to them and help resolve the issue. They are, after all, in his constituency. I guess when the banks who frivolously loaned you copious sums of money let you down, who can you turn to?

    The whole thing stinks to high heaven…

  15.  

    The whole thing stinks of a PR job:
    1). Multiple videos being recorded from different angles, all with the same unusual aspect ratio
    2). You can hear an SLR shutter firing as somebody takes photos – clearly not an amateur
    3). Videos quickly uploaded to youtube and various other media sources
    4). Just happened to have a tent ready to camp out on the street. No friends or neighbours were willing to put them up, really?

    They’ve been going for the sympathy angle, the media appear to have been taken in, but clearly the people aren’t falling for it.

    My 2c, if you own several rental properties, a 5 bed house in Killiney and don’t pay the mortgage for well over two years. Sort out your finances. Sell up, buy a small apartment and get on with life. Don’t try gaming the system and hope your debt will be written down.

    The man’s an accountant for Christ’s sake. Himself and his wife appeared to have run a successful business, they knew what they were doing.

  16.  

    It certainly looks orchestrated, although I’d take issue with your SLR observation. Many people, including non-professionals, have them.

  17.  

    Great article.

  18.  

    Re: SLR
    Fair point. I’ve still got my 35mm Vivitar. What I was trying to imply was that not many people go out with an SLR on a whim, one’s more likely to use a camera phone nowadays (well, certainly around where I live).
    Also, it wasn’t just the sound of an SLR, it was the sound of rapid SLR shutter bursts. It’s the kind of noise I tend to only hear on TV at press conferences.

  19.  

    I’m trying to be fair to the Kellys, that’s all. My own SLR can shoot on the digital equivalent of motor drive, and I use it all the time on that setting, but I can understand your conclusion that only a small number of people would do something like that.

    I have no doubt whatever that the eviction scene was orchestrated, but the more I examine it, the more ludicrous the Kellys look. They genuinely seem to believe that they shouldn’t have to pay the €2 million. Just give us the house and we’ll go on renting our apartments.

    Amazing arrogance.

  20.  

    good work Bock….some stunt this landlord pulled and a huge insult to genuine hardship cases and like u say an abomination for him to liken it to the evictions of the 19th century..

  21.  

    I’d imagine it must be tough though when you get used to opulence.. I mean my 3 bed semi has all the mod cons – running water and an xbox etc.. I’d say it’d be tough moving into a tent.. nevermind from what the what’s- their- names came from. And the same bedroom does get very boring.

  22.  

    Brendan Kelly has made a fool of himself,and belittled the evictions of the 19th century into the bargain.
    This story came to the media by his own efforts,but exposes him as a man who has a staggering sense of self entitlement.
    He should honour his gambling debts instead of looking for sympathy.
    Also,if camping in the street in South Dublin is legal,I might have a fortnight myself in August.

  23.  

    Great read, well done on saying how it is, thought the same to be honest when I saw video, house didn’t look too shabby and suspected he had lived a charmed life at someones expense. Feeling the pain for the irish workers making ends meet just to assist in the clean up of these greedy capitalists carnage.

  24.  

    Occupy Ireland have really let themselves down on this!!!

  25.  

    Spot on, very well said.

  26.  

    THANK YOU!! What struck me from the first was just how many people were not taken in by this bullshit – despite all the hype. Yet again the media were out of step, but – as you rightly pointed out – they have too much to lose. Cheerleaders for the property boom indivituals who were trumpeting the “canny, savvy” approach (see Brendan O’Connor). And Fingers handed out mortgages to journalists like snuff at a wake – so they ended up burned by their own bullshit.

    This couple are parasites – they’re part of the buy-to-let brigade that tought they’d make a killing and drove property prices through the roof – the net result being that those who were trying to buy a HOME were forced into taking out colossal mortgages.

    Finally, this sentence made me laugh out loud – “They needed a house with five bedrooms so that they could move to a new bedroom when they got bored sleeping in the last one. This is a basic human right”.

    Excellent stuff.

  27.  

    Evictions are for the little people. I would be of the opinion that nobody in this country of thousands of vacant dwellings should be without a roof over their head, but this guy is in no danger of that. The cheek of this guy, the greedy fuck, I hope the bank get all his property.

    The worst bit though is listening to the vox pops on the radio, and the amount of people who can’t see what is as plain as day. As long we have a country full of muppets so easily taken in, we really have no hope as a democracy. These people would rather the taxpayer paid these millionaires debts. What a bunch of clowns. Another common response was “well, whatever about the rights and wrongs, you can’t drag people kicking & screaming from their homes”. To which I say, if they won’t pay their debts, and won’t voluntarily leave their homes, how exactly are you supposed to get them out?

  28.  

    Great article. This guy, while not as bad as Seanie/Quinn etc is along the same lines. I think the public jubilation would be quite high if it had been one of them!

  29.  

    Great article, well delivered tapping into the sentiment of any balance thinking person (trying)surviving this economic meltdown. Only issue I have is the final first World flippant remark. Do you honestly want me to believe that there isn’t unscrupulous individuals doing this and much worse in the second and third worlds?

  30.  

    I’m afraid you misread that bit. Perhaps I should reword it.

  31.  

    Just a little update, it’s very difficult to feel any sympathy after them reading this. Bought 21 properties since 1990, several of the mortgages were completed in 2006 & 2001.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0420/1224314969008.html

    btw. Never come across this website before, but it’ll be a regular visit from now one. Excellently written with just the right amount of humour and sarcasm. Thanks.

  32.  

    Excellent just shows you that we should not listen or believe the controlled media thank youf or this I feel so sorry for them NOT.

  33.  

    Very good article. Just want to point out (and I dont really have a stance on the Occupy movement) that they were also duped by the so called ‘reporting’ of the main stream media. I had a brief conversation with one of the Occupy members involved in yesterdays occupation of the Sheriffs Office, and needless to say their attitude changed quickly once they found out the full story.

  34.  

    I actually don’t understand some of the comments on this page.

    If any of you understood the idea of bricks and mortar (which the banks were encouraging you to put your money into only up to 4 years ago) then you might understand that although this man on paper is very wealthy, in cash terms he may not be.

    Im a landlord, admitably not in areas such as Ballsbridge, but a landlord all the same. The properties I bought during the boom years are in serious negative equity (as with a lot of properties now) and if I tried to sell those I would still owe the banks a hefty amount of money.

    Im in no way wealthy. Im not a fat cat banker. I agree that the man in question should have made every attempt to reconcile the issue at hand with the banks, but the banks have to understand, the reason we are all in this mess is partly down to them. The trend was only going up. No one knew that it was going to collapse! No one! And anyone who say they did are lying.

    Realistically, should this man be made to sell his rental properties and just be left in the end with a house and a serious debt (from all the properties due to negative equity and the current housing market)? There has to be some leeway from the bank.

    As I said earlier, a lot of this mans wealth seems to be tied up in property. He is not cash wealthy. He is wealthy on paper because of the assets he owns. But in cash terms, he probably has very little.

    From a landlords perspective, the rent usually (and it doesn’t in my case) cover the cost of the mortgage.

    He said himself he was beginning to make a profit on the rent and thus could begin to pay. Have things in the last two years not gone from bad to worse?! I doubt anyone will disagree with that. We have to use common sense and realise that property does not equal cash wealthy and this has to be taken into account with the banks.

    As for the way he was ‘man-handled’ I think that was a disgrace. The bailiffs could have simply waited until they left the house then move in. Physically pulling and dragging a 71 year old man is a disgrace – regardless of what he owes.

    Thats my point.

  35.  

    Brillliant! I’d come to the same conclusions about that pair, but your article sums it up nicely. Hope you dont mind but I posted a link from my FB page.

  36.  

    Weclome to our world Mr and Mrs Kelly

  37.  

    Well said!!!

    I’ve been waiting all week for someone to come out with the truth…

    Keep up the good work – we need more of it in this country!

  38.  

    Can’t confirm but the are not childless. I think Ross O Carroll Kelly is their son. Great article

  39.  

    Ian Jones, these properties were bought in the 90s and 00s, he can’t be in negative equity on all of them, he should hand over the deeds to the properties that are not in NE. He could also rent out his mansion and move into cheaper accomodation, this would allow him to pay back a few more bob (maybe €6k per month, not to be sneezed at). Scary Lady is right, he is the type who went for broke and helped to inflate a property bubble. He has gambled & lost, now theres’ no sin in that, but he is trying to hang on to all his considerable assets and get the taxpayer to foot the bill, and shamelessly using the image of starving dispossessed peasants who died at the side of the road with grass in their mouths in the 1800s. Disgusting.

  40.  

    Whether his property empire is in negative equity or not, or turning a profit or not is irrelevant. This parasite has been squatting in his mansion not paying anything to a state owned bank for years at this point.

    They are trying a stroke and to dupe the public into allowing them continue their fraud. Fuck off you old spongers.

  41.  

    Hi Ian,

    I know not everyone is in the same boat, but according to the Irish Times today, this couple have satisified most of their mortgages, so negative equity might not be as likely a scenarios as it is for the majority of Irish people.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0420/1224314969008.html

  42.  

    “[OccupyDameSt] were also duped by the so called ‘reporting’ of the main stream media”

    I find this ironic in and of itself.

    P.

  43.  

    Where eviction is a terrible thing to happen to anyone, this piece highlights fully the situation surrounding this eviction from Killiney of all places.

    18 rental properties, and in 2 years they found no way to juggle one of these leases? Most leases are for 1 year in fairness…and anyone who has rented will know this. You mean to tell me in the last 2 years, they weren’t left with trying to find tenants to fill one of these 18 properties???

  44.  

    Great piece

  45.  

    Nail – Head….Bang

    A1 – Great read.

  46.  

    RE: “This couple are parasites – they’re part of the buy-to-let brigade that tought they’d make a killing and drove property prices through the roof – the net result being that those who were trying to buy a HOME were forced into taking out colossal mortgages.”

    Is that not capitalism and the how the free market works?
    Laissez faire in effect..
    We don’t have laws that dictate one home per family.
    If you’re not savvy enough to get on the property market at the right time.. tough luck. The wealthy with numerous properties are obviously just more shrewd than the average joe.

  47.  

    Er… Are you allowed pitch a tent on a residential green???? Shouldn’t be allowed… Sorta lowers the tone !!!!

  48.  

    Hi Bock – this is the most shared news/opinion piece in Ireland today, even displaced forni-gate. http://www.newswhip.com/Ireland Nice one.

  49.  

    Delighted to hear it, Paul. Thanks for the information.

  50.  

    @Ian Jones,
    “The trend was only going up. No one knew that it was going to collapse! No one! And anyone who say they did are lying.”

    No one? None of the people “downtalking the economy”? Not David McWilliams?

    Anybody who knew anything about economic history should have know it would go down eventually. The only thing unknown was when.

    The banks and then government have their share of the blame to take – they also should have known prices would drop, but if you’re spending millions on property, you should be making educated decisions, not doing what everybody else is doing.

  51.  

    too bloody true, its about time so called “big heads” rolled and let us, the
    ordinary plebs get the Country back to the people, with the people, for the
    people.

  52.  

    Brilliant commentary!!!

  53.  

    @Ian Jones,

    At the risk of piling on….
    “The properties I bought during the boom years are in serious negative equity (as with a lot of properties now) and if I tried to sell those I would still owe the banks a hefty amount of money…….The trend was only going up. No one knew that it was going to collapse! No one! And anyone who say they did are lying.”

    I feel for you in your current distress, but as other commenters have pointed out. nobody forced you to buy the houses. It was your investment decision. There were several pundits and commenters pointing out that real estate was frothy (McWilliams etc). Others did do the work even if they didn’t publish it. Price / wage and price / rent multiples were well out of whack. I know several people who are only now starting to look at buying having patiently sat out the market for the last ten years
    Purchases made by those who overpaid because they gambled, or did not do their homework pushed house prices up for all prospective buyers, and forced many families into overpaying for a home.

    I have some sympathy for people buying a home who were forced to chase the market, but none for those who sought profits in buy-to-let. It’s a pity that many overpaid for their assets, but if they didn’t do their homework on an investment decision, that’s their fault. If state-owned banks are not getting repaid on those mortgages then they are asking taxpayers to foot the bill for their mistake.

    I do hope that you are able to manage your financial situation and come out intact. I don’t want others to pay for your mistakes. Personally, I’d rather the housing prices fell to sustainable levels and if landlords can’t make the mortgage then the property should be repossessed and put on the market. Then maybe we’ll get house prices back to where they should be.

  54.  

    You have articulated the anger I have felt for the last few days with aplomb in this article. Great piece of writing! Thanks.

  55.  

    As always Bock, spot on!

  56.  

    Well done Bock.You should get them nominated, for the Holy Heart, that was stolen, from St.Patricks Cathedral, or The Order of Our Lady, of The Tree Stump, for their acting.Maybe, they are looking for a job, in The Abbey.The whole thing was stage managed, with 2 years to get out, they should have got out.

  57.  

    Your absolutely spot on, initially felt sympathy for them but not when the full facts became known. We had to sell our home in the early 90s or have it repossessed and were left with nothing after the mortgage was cleared but we certainly didn’t let it get to the point where baliffs were knocking at the door. We had to get out and start again with 2 very small children, and eventually were housed by the council. I have no sympathy for these 2, they knew they had it coming to them. Am disgusted also that he compares his situation to 19th century evictions. What an insult to the memory of the victims of those terrible times. Keep up the good work

  58.  

    Well written, and I do agree that if they were go a position to sell other property to pay the debt, they should have. But having watched the video of the eviction, I don’t care who they are, or how much money they have, no one should be assaulted like that, and that’s what it was, assault, even worse, the guards stood back and let it happen, they did not carry out their duty :-( you mention that these people borrowed €2million for a €3.75M house 10 years ago, therefore, they put €1.75M of their life savings into their retirement home, and paid the first 8 years before running into trouble, assuming their loan was over a max 17 years, they had paid almost half the money owed, inc interest, so why wouldn’t they fight to keep their house? The most they could owe is about €1.3M, and I understand that even in todays market, the house is worth about €2M, so are the bank going to sell the house and give back €700K to the couple? Bottom line here, how the people were put out of their house was wrong, and they should make statements the the local garda station, the garda have to act if an medical statement is made, the bailiffs should have done like most others are doing around the country, watch the house till they know it is empty, and just take possession!?! Just my view on this sorry saga.

  59.  

    Well written piece. From the first moment I heard about this, I knew there was much more to it than was being portrayed. Glad to see there are still some journalists willing to dig a little deeper, even if it is two days are their colleagues run very unbalanced fact shy sensationalist pieces.

    One small note on the suggestion the the Kelly’s wouldn’t sell an rental property to pay money to INBS. It’s very likely if they did sell a property, they’d have to repay the funds to another bank (Indo quotes that they borrowed a lot from PTSB against all their properties in 2007, probably on low trackers costing PTSB, and in effect the state a lot of money). So it probably wasn’t a runner to dispose of a property. Living in one is another matter.

  60.  

    For clarification, I’m not a journalist. I’m one of those people John Waters believes should be prevented from holding opinions because they’re not licensed to think.

  61.  

    Great work Bock, it’s doing the rounds of Facebook and the likes, and as far as I can see meeting with nothing but agreement and great praise. Good to see appreciation for a voice of sense!

    As for the SLR thing mentioned a while back there – were’t the press there in various forms? Surely that would explain the high-speed shutter sounds, since they’d qualify as professional photographers. In any case, my SLR too can sustain rapid shooting, and I’m not a pro by any stretch.

  62.  

    Sorry Bock, my dig a journalists wasn’t at you. It’s too typical of Irish media to run with a sensational headline without doing to ground work, be it RTE news, Liveline, the red tops or the broadsheets. More facts coming out a day later showed they jumped the gun before doing their home work. But it sold copy, so that’s all that matters.

    There’s too much optics over substance in our press. The Kellys tried to use that to their advantage and I’m glad to see it blowing up in their faces.

  63.  

    I know you weren’t taking a shot at me. We’ll fight the good fight together.

  64.  

    Apparantly the mortgage of 2.2 mil was taken out in 2004, they ceased payments at some point in 2009, by my estimation the repayments on 2.2 mil would be roughly 10.5 K per mth, so they repaid probably just over 600 K of a 2.2 mil mortgage, not even a third.

    Their property portfolio is claimed to consist of 21 properties, if as stated all of these properties are currently leased and located in presige areas commanding high rents, it is safe to assume they had a rental income somewhere in the region of between 31.5 K and 52.5 K, possibly more per month.

    To me this looks like arrogance off the scale. I would never condone the violence executed by Baliffs but this scenario looks to me, at any rate to be orchestrated with a big publicity agenda to garner public sympathy given the raft of repossesions of homes from people who genuinly cannot pay for the one roof over their heads, if that is the case then it is beyond dispicable.

    Mr. Kelly spent most of Friday in the Dail speaking with Politicians, now i think its safe to assume that avenue is not open to the majority suffering such a plight.
    When questioned by the media as to why he had not sold some of his properties so as so avoid eviction, Mr. Kelly stated ” It is practically impossible to sell property “….Really ” Practically impossible “.added to that apparantly they will not be spending tonight in their tent.

  65.  

    Well said, Bock

  66.  

    Maybe he slept in the Dail with his mates? My first reaction was : “hmmm I haven’t seen any sub prime evictions making front page news”.

    With regards to buy to let, I understand that there is a backlash to it considering what’s happened in the last 10 years. However, when it comes to my personal situation, I’ve seen too many middle aged peoples pensions wiped out to let the most important investment of my life in the hands of some spotty faced banked. Therefore I will use property as my pension. If I get burnt, so be it.

  67.  

    Too many people jumping on the bandwagon here and missing the main point.

    The banks are running rings around you yet again!

    Where is the accountability for the banks?

    This situation was caused by greed! Greed both by the Kelly, by his bank, by the European banks that leant to our greedy banks in the first place as well as the greed of all their bondholders.

    Banks, all of them, threw money at everyone, ignored basic lending principles like age of persons and income ratios. The ability to repay based on income was frequently ignored because, sure, ‘it’s value will double in a few years anyway!’

    Yet come the (inevitable) crunch, the banks would appear to be able to demand full settlement for every last penny (including excessive interest, charges and fees) yet they themselves still take no financial responsibility for their own actions!

    Every time Kelly (or a bank) sells one of his houses, he actually gets deeper in debt! They are all (apparently) in negative equity. Run through the whole sequence of properties and the bank will end up of a debt of mega millions and probably be unable to take the last remaining ‘family’ home.

    So the banks go for the jugular. They know, all things considered, that they will get away with it and that the media sideshow and righteous indignation of the general public will pull them through looking like kind, considerate people that have made every effort to come to a reasonable deal.
    All bollocks of course!

    What we now have instead are hundreds of thousands of people who think that they own the banks! The author of this article alludes to it, so do very many others.
    We own nothing. The cosy banking, political, legal and (most) media is still very much intact and is still very much in control and despite a paper change of ownership the banks can still pretty well do as they please but this time with tens of thousands of their ‘new’ owners jumping in right behind their actions!

    You have it all wrong guys. You are homing in on the wrong people. You are dumping your ire on the guy at the bottom of the pecking order.

    Yes, he must take some personal responsibility for his own stupidity here. But he should not be taking on the banks responsibility for theirs as well.

    Of course, if you think you own the banks, it can be difficult to see past the ends of your noses

  68.  

    Well said Dennis. I hear Bock loud and clear on this one but to allude that the taxpayer will ever have a say in the machinations of IBRC is folly. The repossession list on Monday morning however needs it’s own campaign, and now. Cases in the link above that someone highlighted will result in more persons seeking rent allowance and similar state support at a time when those supports are being cut.They really just want the little people to fuck off and die. Lash Brendan Kelly for sure but don’t make him a scapegoat.

  69.  

    I don’t believe I said the taxpayers would have any influence. I’m simply pointing out that every default costs us money whether we like it or not.

  70.  

    The only ” Bandwagon ” jumper here is Brendan Kelly, nobody has made him a scapegoat, he has given that title to himself.
    With a property portfolio numbering 21, the man must have a certain amount of knowledge regarding the market he delved into.

    My belief is that this is not based on ” Stupidity ” it is based on arrogance, although to me its one and the same.

    In 2004, according to PTSB the aerage cost of a 3 bed semi in Dublin was between 219,987 K and 334,822 K now factoring in all the differentials of location, spec, etc etc to me its a ” Dog and Mallet ” conclusion that a house costing 3.75 mil was screaming ” overpriced ” this is less about the Banks and more about people who just won’t pay piggybacking on the misfortune of others because the climate is setting such a trend.

    It is a very dangerous and divisive trend because it divides people by their net worth, it creates a ” Have and Have not ” view of Society regardless of an individuals circumstances, this is a very poor Model to be put forward as it is devoid of ” personal responsibility ” and there is no such thing as ” some personal responsibility ” no grey areas its black / white.

  71.  

    BOCK FOR PRESIDENT!!!

  72.  

    BOCK FOR PRESIDENT!!!!

  73.  

    Excellent article, typical of the media the way they can manipulate people without telling the full story. I felt sorry for them after seeing the clip but now am sickened at them, eff them they are parasites.

  74.  

    im guessing but u can bet he had no qualms about stuffing 10 poles or 10 students into a shoebox in dublin and charged them 2000 a month for the privalage at the height of the boom. He got greedy like many ppl in ireland and used his house like it was an atm. He isnt destitute but desperate to hold on to a lifestyle that he built himself on sand.

  75.  

    That’s pure speculation on your part. You have no information to support such a claim.

    And please don’t use txt in your comments.

  76.  

    @Dennis

    “the banks would appear to be able to demand full settlement for every last penny”
    That’s how bank loans work. Banks don’t get the upside if the asset rises in value, and they are not supposed to be on the hook for the downside either. Kelly willingly took the risky bet – that the house was worth more than 3.75 million. The bank entered into a lower-risk contract based on the idea that the house was worth at least 2 million. If Kelly stops paying, he loses the bet, forfeits his stake and the bank’s duty is to get its 2 million back.

    “Every time Kelly (or a bank) sells one of his houses, he actually gets deeper in debt! They are all (apparently) in negative equity. Run through the whole sequence of properties and the bank will end up of a debt of mega millions”
    I don’t understand how you arrive at this conclusion. Either a loan is good (covered by underlying asset values or cash flows), or its not. Ignoring the problem doesn’t make the loan good – it’s what landed us here to begin with. If Kelly isn’t making payments, then the loan is in default, and the bank needs to mitigate their losses by acting quickly. After two years, they had exhausted conversations with Kelly, and so they have to repossess and sell.

    The 2 million mortgage doesn’t come from nowhere. Someone has to pay it back. If Kelly won’t pay, and the bank doesn’t collect, then as Bock points out, we the taxpayers are on the hook.

    Kelly willingly made an ill-advised gamble with his own money. His gamble, and others like it, had a cost for every homebuyer and potential homebuyer in Ireland by pushing house prices up. Now he wants the bank and by extension the taxpayer to bail him out. He alone would have kept all of the upside if he was right. He alone should deal with the downside now that he is wrong.

  77.  

    You had me up until the bitter words that typically come from a person who does not live south of donnybrook. I would also love you to clarify the relevance of the “accent” RTE apparently speaks. If you are referring to the the well spoken manner in which newsreaders and presenters speak, I am unsure where you can fault this. Other than that, it would have been a very good piece to read.

  78.  

    Sarah — I didn’t say the RTÉ accent was good and I didn’t say it was bad. I said it was defined by the people from its hinterland.

    The term “well-spoken” is a matter of opinion.

    Likewise, I didn’t criticise people south of Donnybrook. You’re being remarkably defensive.

  79.  

    Wow!

    What a great example of Irish begrudgery! This article is so full of inaccuracies and class warfare as to make it a self parody! “Earlier reports failed to mention, for instance, that Brendan Kelly is himself a landlord who owns many rental properties around Dublin. They failed to mention that the bank secured a repossession order against the couple two years ago. And they failed to mention that Kelly wouldn’t sell any of his properties to pay off the money he owed to Irish Nationwide.” Oh ok, so we were sympathetic to Mr Kelly until we found out that he had money! Now he’s an enemy of the decent, working class, proletariat!

    It then goes on to say “Of course, when I speak of the money he owes to Irish Nationwide, I really mean the money he owes to us, the Irish people, who now own that bank.” – WRONG! The irish people do not own that bank, they have securitized the debt obligations of that debt to the ECB so that the foreign bond holders will not loose a penny of their money.

    IRBC is a giant slush fund which is being used to suck money out of the Irish economy back into the hands of the german, french, Dutch etc bond holders. Once this exercise has been completed the “bank” will be wound down and the Irish people will be left with nothing but a kick up the arse.

    The real tragedy in this whole situation is that the Irish people were too concerned with TV and the Pub to put up any objections when the morons in leinster house agreed to rush in an guarantee unsecured debts thus transferring private debt to the public balance sheet. If the Irish had had the backbone of say Iceland they would have forced their Governments into allowing the banks to fail, taken the hit to the economy and credit and moved on to a swift recovery (as marked by Iceland’s booming growth and credit ratings compared to subservient Ireland).

    “when that putrid bank, now part of IBRC, writes off a two-million-euro debt, that’s €2 million more that we — you and I — must pump into the bank to compensate for the loss.” – WRONG! So now that the bank has repossessed the home, they will put it through a process with NAMA which will enable them to have it to a point where they can sell it (probably 12 months from now). All the while the house will loose more value and will eventually get sold at a 50-75% write down price (perhaps more!). So even after the repossession there’s going to be a loss of over 1.5 Million Euro and another house thrown on the market at fire sale prices to further depress the house market. Smart move!

    “Let’s get our heads clear now. They knew the bailiffs were coming. They’d known about it for two years. There was a court order. They didn’t have the money to settle the debt, and yet they stayed in their €3.75 million luxury mansion, instead of doing what the rest of the country would have to do: get out.” – WRONG AGAIN! The constitution of Ireland protects a person’s residence from being used as collateral to secure private debts. Who care what some commercial court (the high court) says, it cannot override common law (the constitution).

    “Dublin does not include Tallaght, Ballyfermot, Neilstown or any of those appendages that exist solely to provide stock stereotypes for bad drama. Dublin is anything south of Donnybrook, but excluding embarrassing local authority housing estates in the likes of Dun Laoghaire.” – Ah! Now we begin the class warfare attacks! Poor us, we live in poor areas and it’s all the fault of those snobs in D4!

    Well as someone who grew up in the one of the areas you mention as not belonging to Dublin who went on to setup his own international stock brokerage firm and multi million euro property portfolio I can attest that it’s socialist crap like that that keeps so called working class people down. You take offense at Mr Kelly referring to the land league and evictions of the 19th century but seem to omit the fact that it was members of the landed gentry and wealthier classes that founded, organized and ran the land league, helped protect and organize the people and finally ended the tyranny of the peasants’ landowners and began the process of democratizing Ireland and emancipating the lower classes.

    Of course if you lived in that period you’d probably categorize Daniel O’Connel and Charles Stewart Parnell as not being “real people” and “well off men”.

    There’s nothing worse than envy except, perhaps, envy which is disguised as political commentary.

    #FAIL

  80.  

    I think that if this couple had children this would never had happened. Could you imagine your children standing by and allowing their parents to make such fools of themselves. Oh! The embarrassment.

  81.  

    Have another spliff and relax yourself

  82.  

    A graph correlating Public Sympathy as a factor of Time for individuals of “High Perceived Wealth” – http://blog.likeplace.ie/

  83.  

    Bock, you and your followers are total dicks. Grow up. You with your arrogance, pomp and mis-information. When do you reckon we’ll have all the debt paid back to the Troika???? You are also an ageist and racist prick. Irish people will outsmart the likes of you and your horse-shit blog. Now blog off Bock you snake! (It’s obvious you work for the bank)

  84.  

    Brilliant. Guilty on all counts. Just explain, before you go, what makes you say I’m a racist?

  85.  

    Bock you must stop upsetting people.Nah just kidding.I think you’ve hit some raw nerves this time.SK took you to task about the RTE accent.The trouble with some of the people on RTE is that they try to speak with an accent that is not natural to them.The result is that they sound like nobody else in Ireland,they just sound comical.There is nothing wrong with regional accents,and it seems to me people who change their accents are low in self esteem and confidence.A great bit of writing by the way,now that I’ve had my little rant.

  86.  

    One must always have sympathy for people who are thrown out of their homes weather they have money of not.
    But the one question I would like to have RTE ask Mr. Kelly. What would he do himself if one of his tenants did not pay their rent for two years.

  87.  

    Hey Ian Jones,

    I am sorry to hear your story. There is just one thing really getting to me: “The trend was only going up. No one knew that it was going to collapse! No one! And anyone who say they did are lying.”

    I am from Germany and moved to Ireland in 2005. I’m still happy here and didn’t buy property for the following reasons:

    1. I have read several newspaper articles warning about this bubble even back in 2005 (Irish newspaper articles). I am still so shocked about how these articles were ignored!

    2. The house prices were compared to the rest of Europe so much out of proportion.

    3. Back in school I have learned: No economy is only going up, there is the simple rule of boom and recession.

    4. I had big discussions with friends buying property warning them not to do this. They thought the prices will go up indefinitely and they will be millionaires in ten years time. Most of them are in a really bad situation now. Probably in depth for the rest of their lives. I do have the feeling there was some greed involved.

    5. They were still building apartments even if there were too many in Dublin. I was passing the Docklands on my way to work every day and there was so many empty apartments from the first day I passed there! Simple: Too many apartments, what will follow: Prices will go down.

    6. I have seen people getting loans from the bank- who shouldn’t have gotten it in the first place – credit cards were thrown onto them. I am not surprised the banks sit on all this depth. (BOI was bombarding me with loan & credit card offers and I was disgusted by this)

    7. A lot of people were in overpaid and useless jobs – these jobs wouldn’t last forever.

    Add all this together and my picture was: Give a 4 year old kid with no idea about money €100 and say: ‘now go out and spend it wisely’. The kid will come back with a lot of ‘useful’ toys like helicopters, the newest cars, a wedding in the biggest castle and there is nothing left. With nothing left the kid will ask for more to keep the lifestyle up. There is some willing parent giving the kid more and more until one day daddy’s pocket is empty too. Then the kid starts to cry.

    This is the abstract picture I drew in my head BEFORE the bubble bursted. There is enough Irish people around who do agree with me.

    All I ask you for is: Don’t call me a liar! It was obvious and clear to me. I didn’t expect such a melt down but I knew this can’t last forever just looking at it carefully and being raised with a complete different attitude towards money.

    This just needed to be said.

    P.S. Brilliant blog and a very good article.

  88.  

    nice ti see it being told how it is well done wish all news was broadcasted like this keep it up

  89.  

    Hans is on the money. There were PLENTY of people who thought that the Irish housing market was over-priced in the mid to late 2000s. If Ian Jones still believed the “only way is up” mantra in 2008 then he was listening to the wrong advisors.

    There were plenty of signs there, it’s just that we Irish were like kids playing Blind Man’s Bluff at a children’s party. All it took was someone who wasn’t repeating the mantra of “Gotta get into the property market before it’s too late, prices are only going up”.

    In our situation, I was blind-folded and under the illusion when we bought in 2001, whereas my Australian husband had looked at the ratios of debt to income, and disparity between the mortgage repayment and amount that rent would cover and declared it to be a Ponzi scheme. In 2001.

    However, due to my womanly powers of persuaion, we did buy. By the time we were due to move to Australia in early 2008, I still didn’t want to sell in case we “lost our footing” in the Dublin market. I wanted to rent it out in case we wanted to come back. We got estate agents in and were told that it we could sell by the St Patrick’s Day weekend we would sell, if not it would linger, not sell and we would be in negative equity for a long time. She was right. My husband won that debate (husbandly powers of persuasion maybe). Thankfully.

    The estate agent was absolutely right. We sold. Although I am glad, I do have twinges of guilt for the poor couple who bought. The two neighbouring houses on the terrace which went on the market a month after ours still haven’t sold when asking 40% of what we sold for.

    We are now living in Australia where everyone believes that the property market here is different from every other property boom for x,y,z reasons. The ratios of debt to income don’t stack up. Rent doesn’t cover mortgage repayments. It’s a Ponzi scheme. Again. EVERYONE telling us that we are mad to be renting, dead money, should get into the property market, prices are stabilising now etc etc. Sound familiar anyone????

    But like Ian Jones, people are still buying investment properties and I predict that in 4 years time they too will be saying that no-one suspected that it could possibly crash.

    I have sympathies for anyone who has been adversely affected by the GFC, especially if they were given poor financial advice. But anyone who bought property in the late 2000s probably didn’t get independent advice, probably didn’t research themselves as far as an internet search, and just believed the word of the dogs on the street. Or their mortgage lender, which is worse.

    We got lucky. Ian did not. A friend who was doing his own analysis sold 5 years too early and lost out too, with 100,000 euros of rent. He read the market correctly, it’s just that the Irish were still in the confidence game and kept buying. Other friends left Ireland in 2008 and decided to rent out their family home like I wanted to do. They have recently been forced to sell and now have a significant mortgage to repay on a house they don’t own.

    But if Ian had bought and sold 10 years earlier he wouldn’t be giving back the money he made to the bank, no more than we are. Investments are a risk. If you make money it’s a good investment, if you lose money it’s a bad investment. But it is never a guaranteed return, whether a family home or an investment apartment or Eircom shares. The banks should not have been giving 110% mortgages. But we were fools to take them.

  90.  

    Brilliantly said and thank you for speaking up on behalf of all of us that are so rankled by the attitudes the Killiney couple, who Ive termed G & M Bheen.

    Wouldnt they need to have applied for a protesting permit before occupying the street?

  91.  

    @Spike

    [i]”the banks would appear to be able to demand full settlement for every last penny”
    That’s how bank loans work. Banks don’t get the upside if the asset rises in value, and they are not supposed to be on the hook for the downside either. Kelly willingly took the risky bet – that the house was worth more than 3.75 million. The bank entered into a lower-risk contract based on the idea that the house was worth at least 2 million. If Kelly stops paying, he loses the bet, forfeits his stake and the bank’s duty is to get its 2 million back.[/i]

    No, I disagree. The law, in practically every other situation, allows for mitigating circumstances and contributory negligence.
    What I am saying is that the banks, during the ‘bonus’ period, completely lost sight of their basic core values and sound banking principles. On that basis then even if the don’t directly contribute to the losses, they should at least bear the cost of their negligence.

    [i]”Every time Kelly (or a bank) sells one of his houses, he actually gets deeper in debt! They are all (apparently) in negative equity. Run through the whole sequence of properties and the bank will end up of a debt of mega millions”
    I don’t understand how you arrive at this conclusion. Either a loan is good (covered by underlying asset values or cash flows), or its not. Ignoring the problem doesn’t make the loan good – it’s what landed us here to begin with. If Kelly isn’t making payments, then the loan is in default, and the bank needs to mitigate their losses by acting quickly. After two years, they had exhausted conversations with Kelly, and so they have to repossess and sell.[/i]

    Then perhaps you are a banker?
    Seems that Kelly did indeed sell a number of properties. To sell a property that is in negative equity means, as you graphically alluded to above, that the owner still has to pick up the bill for the loss. Multiply this by 20 and you have an enormous loss with no more property to sell. (other posters have already pointed out what this actually does to the market).
    So when the banks sell property number 20, they then home in on the personal residence which is already in negative equity for what, exactly? To recover the millions in losses from the previous 20 sales?

    [i]The 2 million mortgage doesn’t come from nowhere. Someone has to pay it back. If Kelly won’t pay, and the bank doesn’t collect, then as Bock points out, we the taxpayers are on the hook.[/i]

    A somewhat blinked outlook I have to say.
    The ‘debt’ is already paid! It was written off well over a year ago. It’s what banks do with bad debts. We (the taxpayer) has already paid for it too. What is missing and what so many people don’t seem to be able to see is that it’s the basic principle of letting the banks off for their reckless lending that will bring even more people into the same situation as the Kellys. And I don’t mean people with 20 houses, I mean an ordinary couple with and ordinary family in an ordinary jobs but one of them just happens to get made redundant and the mortgage becomes unaffordable.

    [i]Kelly willingly made an ill-advised gamble with his own money. His gamble, and others like it, had a cost for every homebuyer and potential homebuyer in Ireland by pushing house prices up. Now he wants the bank and by extension the taxpayer to bail him out. He alone would have kept all of the upside if he was right. He alone should deal with the downside now that he is wrong.[/i]

    Yeah, sure. Spoken like a true banker!
    Of course should this actually happen and everyone pays off in full then all that extra income comes back onto the balance sheet as pure, unadulterated profit and it’s more bonanza bonus’ all round!

    The banks MUST be made to account for their own mistakes here, otherwise, as it affects more and more people, society will become further and further distanced from the banking/political cartel.

  92.  

    Well said Dennis!
    We’ll bail out the banks but we won’t do anything for homeowners who can’t pay their mortgages. The homeowner took a gamble and lost. Tough titty.
    We can’t have the banks suffer the consequences of riding a massive property bubble at all.. no, the were regulated well and had effective strategies for being profitable. People in the country got greedy as Enda said. That’s right.

  93.  

    Very well put, going to share this. Couldn’t agree more.

  94.  

    @Dennis,

    Since you ask, I am not a banker. Nor would it invalidate my arguments if I were one.

    Banks and homebuyers both screwed up in the bubble. Banks offered stupid loans. Homebuyers stupidly took those loans and overpaid for houses. Now we are in the process of finding out what those houses are worth, and who will pay for the losses. Mortgages are clearly written so that losses and gains get shared out to homeowners first, with banks picking up the balance. The banks bondholders should have had to pay for any residual losses on the mortgages, but Mr. Lenihan prevented that from happening, so instead the Irish taxpayer kicks in the balance. So Kelly pays or the taxpayer pays. That’s it, end of story.

    You say “The ‘debt’ is already paid! It was written off well over a year ago. It’s what banks do with bad debts. We (the taxpayer) has already paid for it too.”
    A writeoff doesn’t “pay” the debt, it just transfers it. It leaves a hole in the banks balance sheet that has to be filled. In this case by the Irish taxpayer, who will have to make up the balance of the loan thanks to the idiotic bank guarantee. Kelly willingly took a risk, and lost. If Kelly doesn’t pay, you do, end of story. Do you want to pay extra taxes for him to live in that house? I surely don’t.

    You argue that foreclosing will push other property prices down. I would argue that it will help property prices to find their true level. There are winners and losers. Homebuyers, such as young couples starting out, will win. Owners of multiple properties like Kelly will lose – if they sell. Most people are unaffected since they are living in their house and if they sold would have to buy another. What is pushing house prices down is that they were overpriced to begin with because people like Kelly overpaid. If banks over-lent, then they will suffer too (and most have). Like it or not, it’s important that assets are priced correctly – as we have seen with property. Trying to prop prices up just creates losses down the road.

    I want to respect Bock’s site, so I’ll eave it at that, respecting your position and realizing that my opinion is just that, and no more.

  95.  

    [Comment deleted.]

  96.  

    @Paradimeshift.org: Your comment has so many holes in it so where to start-you have completely missed the point here.

  97.  

    Just read a comment from Ian Jones(Landlord) In his comment he has the sheer Brass balls to point the finger at the bankers for causing the collapse of this country. Does he not see or just not care that it was Him and His like, just as much as the bankers that caused the trouble we are in. Anybody that borrowed money for second and third(maybe more) homes are equally to blame for this mess. I worked since I left school and bought a home within my means. I didn’t over borrow. I lost my job through no fault of my own, but I will not lose my home because I wasn’t fucking greedy….

  98.  

    Isn’t it a great feckin’ country all the same?

  99.  

    Great article

  100.  

    The poor old devils have a lot to worry them. Maybe they might like to move into one of their London apartments and get away from it all.

  101.  

    A mere six months in a tent outside one of their London flats and they can file for bankruptcy and shaft the system here anyway.

  102.  

    Delacaravancio: “The real tragedies are the sub-prime repossessions which happen every Monday in the High Court.”

    The lenders saw them coming alright. Sub-prime suckers. Debt junkies. HaHaHa.

  103.  

    @Hans and other critics of me!

    I have already stated that I am not one of those fat cat property developers or big time landlords. I own one separate house that I rent. It is in negative equity (although not as bad as some people).

    I wasnt making a point about my situation.

    And for those who say they saw it coming are simply lying. No body saw this coming. Hence there is little or no savings going on in this country at the moment. If everyone saw this coming, basic economics would lead to the fact that the recession would have hit much earlier and much much harder.

    @Hans I have studied German and German economics for the past 12 years. In Germany the housing market is a little different. People don’t buy in Germany – especially in cities. People rent properties. So to be arguing over the fact that people shouldn’t have bought is pointless. The way of life here was different and is different to that of Germany. People have always bought their homes. Its an Irish kind of thing to do. You buy your home when you can.

    @Richie Jordan I am not even going to start this with you. Have a look at my previous post and you’ll see how wrong you are. I didn’t borrow for the second or third time. Due to the early death of my parents I have a family home. But I got a mortgage for the other house. So don’t drag me in with Fingelton etc..

    And I’m sorry that you lost your job, but while it may be harsh to say so, as one of the previous posters stated, economics works in recessionary times and boom periods. That is the way an economy works. Unfortunately unemployment is a by-product of a recession. So while the banking crisis and over borrowing hasn’t helped the situation (it has slowed our recovery) it is not totally to blame nor are anyone.

    And I’m glad you won’t lose your home. No one should lose their family home – regardless of who they are or where they live. IBRC could have easily taken ownership of the rental properties where they will get some funds. They will struggle to sell the house they have repossessed and will be left with more property on their books. If they took the rental properties then they will be getting rent from the tenants which is at least some form of current income.

    No one caused the recession. What bankers and politicians etc. have caused is a slow down in our recovery.

    And @Glenda I’m not sure what seems to be your main issue. As I said I have not invested in multi million euro properties. I bought a basic house to let. Is that a crime? Absolutely not! So get off your high horse! We’re all in this together!

    And @mollydot and @Spikes – Isn’t hindsight a wonderful thing! I’m quite sure the majority of the country wouldn’t have gone near property if we knew what was going to happen. So don’t be naive. The likes of George Lee and David McWilliams were ridiculed by the media and public when they came up with theories like they did.

  104.  

    Morgan Kelly predicted the collapse of the property bubble in 2007, prompting Bertie Ahern’s notorious “suicide” comment. He wasn’t lying about it.

  105.  

    @Bock a matter of months before the actual property crash.

    He’s a modern day Saint!

  106.  

    How far back did you want to go? As you confirm, he predicted it.

  107.  

    Bock
    He actually does have a point re Morgan Kelly. The height of the property boom was actually late 2006. That’s when builders starting having to offer free kitchens and other “perks” to shift stock. Of course, our media never picked up on this so the popping of the bubble didn’t become apparent until 2007 when commentators started talking about the “soft landing” that was on the way. Also well underway in 2006 was the great purges on don’tAskAboutPropertyPrices when documented evidence of price drops were being deleted along with all the bears. What made Morgan Kelly stand out was the extent of the price drops he was predicting. Even hardline bears had difficulty swallowing his logic.

    That said, Ian Jones is ultimately wrong with “And for those who say they saw it coming are simply lying. No body saw this coming. Hence there is little or no savings going on in this country at the moment.”

    For starters, our savings rate is increasing. The CSO reported this only last week:
    “According to the CSO data, the gross savings ratio — which expresses savings as a percentage of gross disposable income — increased from 13.4% to 14.1% over the course of the last year. In the fourth quarter of 2011, that measure jumped from 2.8% to 6.3% on a year-on-year basis.

    Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/disposable-income-down-356m-190802.html#ixzz1t3s37O4c

    As for “nobody saw this coming”, some of us did. That’s why I’m in my 30’s, debt free and with a big pot of savings. Don’t expect me to cough up for those who bought houses they couldn’t afford though.

  108.  

    @Ian “isn’t hindsight a wonderful thing”
    It is indeed. So is foresight, and research. I didn’t buy during the bubble, and for a reason.

    There was little discussion of valuation in the mainstream media or finance sectors, but they had no incentive to burst the bubble they were making money from. However, the Economist magazine ran several articles in 2005 discussing the issue (though they underestimated the effect in Ireland). Here is one:
    http://www.economist.com/node/5283797

    I’m not saying it was blindingly obvious, but there’s a big difference between “nobody” and “everyone”. Valuation is dull, arcane and often irrelevant for long periods, and does not predict timing of a correction. Even then, you have to worry about the currency being devalued – there are no constants in a fiat currency world. If the ECB starts to print in a big way, or Ireland leaves the Euro and devalues, your house purchase may look like a bargain and my savings will be worthless.

    Hang in there.

  109.  

    @Ian

    I think you didn’t get my point.

    I quote myself: ‘There is just one thing really getting to me: “The trend was only going up. No one knew that it was going to collapse! No one! And anyone who say they did are lying.”‘

    I was just explaning why I feel offended by being called a liar.

    Re your point about people not buying houses in Germany: I am from the south. We have a saying in Swabian: “Schaffe, schaffe Haeusle baue” – which means in English: “Work, work and build your house”. It is a common habit to buy your own property. It’s a myth to say people are only renting houses. During your student life in the city center you rent (some similarities to Dublin here?!). I don’t know any of my relatives or friends back there who don’t own property. The difference is and that was the point I wanted to make: They all were comparing prices and realistic about the market. Waiting a few years for the right priced property is common practice because there is always a recession after a boom. ALWAYS!

    I don’t know anyone back home who would invest 35 years of their life to own a paper wall 2 bedroom apartment in the suburbs of a city. I was educated to compare value and money. Value for money wasn’t given to me here and I also knew the house prices MUST fall on one stage. Again: I arrived in Dublin at 2005! Nearly the highest point of the bubble and empty new developments everywhere.

    It’s more about being patient, just look at things realistic and do not believe all the nonsense a banker is trying to tell you. They are and never were out there to help just you getting rich. They are making business – they are no missionaries.

    Again, I do feel sorry for everybody who got fooled into buying property they couldn’t afford. So don’t get me wrong, I do feel with you and I hope you’ll get out of your situation somehow.

    All I can say: I don’t owe the banks a single cent for any worthless property – to be more precise: I don’t owe the bank anything. It might happen one day but definitely not in the nearest future.

    Life’s too short!

    P.S. And I don’t feel sorry for the Killiney couple in the article. 21 properties in Ireland, 17 in London… getting evicted out of the own home? What went wrong in their life?!?!

  110.  

    Hi Hans

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