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Silence from Self-Described Pro-Life Groups Over Mass Burial of 800 Babies

Catholic Right has nothing to say about mass grave of babies in former home for unmarried mothers

If there was an outcry from Catholic groups about the mass burial of 800 babies in Tuam, news of it hasn’t penetrated as far as this little backwater.

tuam bon secours homeDavid Quinn of the Iona Fringe Prayer Group has been remarkably silent on the issue, despite his usual eagerness to appear on TV if two dogs are caught copulating.  Likewise, there hasn’t been a peep out of the Macaroonahoonarooney clan who built the Youth Defence franchise out of nothing, presumably because their campaign  for the welfare of babies  extends only to those not yet born.  Every sperm is sacred, but apparently not every two-year-old, in the world of the  Irish Catholic Right.

Why?  The answer is simple enough.  If you dominate women’s fertility, as the Catholic clergy did for decades, you control society.  If you long to keep that control alive, as the extremists do, you’ll cling to the strategies that worked in the past and  you certainly won’t be thinking of the demented, sexually-frustrated evil nuns and brothers who took their rage out on the unfortunates who fell into their clutches, or who were driven there by Monsignor Everyman in his fine parish priest’s motor car.

Let’s not be too surprised at the silence over mass graves of babies in Ireland.  This society, after all, is founded on a contempt for the weak.  This is a society that has never confronted its own great catastrophe, the Irish Shoah known as the Great Famine.  This is a society well-used to burying its feelings and hating those who fall beneath the hooves of history.

Let me put it this way: what did the Famine survivors do in order to survive?  Would they boast about their actions to their children and grandchildren?  What did your ancestors do to survive?  Maybe they even became wealthy during those years?

What a fertile plot Cardinal Paul Cullen found, in which to sow the seeds of his extreme Ultramontane Catholicism back in 1852.  A society riddled with grief, rage, guilt and hatred.

Have those feelings gone away in the intervening century and a half?  Of course not. Though we have finally thrown off the power of the institutional church in many ways, it still retains significant control in areas entirely outside its competence: the areas of health and education.  It’s indicative of this State’s abdication that private individuals, nuns and priests, were allowed to dominate such vital and sensitive areas of our society, up to and including the power to hold people prisoner, and that is precisely what nuns did, the same nuns who still unashamedly refuse to contribute to the fund for their Magdalene slaves, even though they knowingly wrecked those women’s lives for their own profit.

Now, of course, it  becomes clearer that they not only destroyed their victims mentally and physically, but also that they starved and neglected thousands of children in their messianic sense of superiority.

The Bon Secours nuns are not unique in this, but we do know that in Tuam, over a 36-year period from 1925 to 1961, they routinely tossed dead toddlers and infants into an old septic tank, just like so much rubbish, at the rate of one child every two weeks.

And yet, those self-appointed latter-day moral guardians, like the ludicrous Iona Institute, and the revolting Youth Defence, have remained utterly silent when news of this obscenity emerged.

Why?

In the case of Iona, because the facts don’t suit their carefully-constructed fantasy of a fictitious Catholic Ireland,  and in the case of Youth Defence and their kind, because it simply isn’t of any use to them.

But leaving aside fringe groups, what of an Garda Síochána?  Would it not seem reasonable, if a grave was discovered containing 800 bodies, that they would immediately seize the files of the organisation in charge of the suspected crime scene and caution everyone before launching a massive investigation?

One would have thought so, but in fact, nothing of the sort has happened.  Instead, the Gardaí seem to have directed most of their energy towards intimidating their whistleblowers, despite the public statements of their interim Commissioner to the contrary.

Here is a grave containing the remains of eight hundred babies and toddlers.  Eight hundred!  And yet the national police force has so far failed to make any inquiries.

Why are we not shouting about this from the rooftops?

 

_______________

Also:  Magdalene laundries and the power of shame

 

Timeline from Liam Hogan, historian and librarian.

Campaign to recognise 800 dead babies

Registration of Maternity Homes Bill, 1934—Second Stage

Amnesty International report — In Plain Sight

119 replies on “Silence from Self-Described Pro-Life Groups Over Mass Burial of 800 Babies”

If our society is sick, does hate the weak, and does support this, then why does is almost everyone I know disagree with such things? Are they faking it? Am I living in a bubble? Or in fact are most people in society against this, and simply not in control?

I think that the cause of sickness in our society is in the people we find leading us.

One of the most patheyic comments was from the priest sent along – presumably because the bishops were all too busy – who said words to the effect that we cannot judge the past by today’s standards. This is one of the usual lines of defence and it is always a lie – allowing children to die from malnutrition was a crime in any century

Yeah, we didn’t know killing babies was wrong back then Ian.
This type of cruelty is similar to what you had in Nazi Germany, except that’s been exposed.
This is just swept under the carpet, not really dealt with, because I believe a lot of people in this country are still in thrall to the church, i.e; our national broadcaster, politicians.

” we cannot judge the past by today’s standards.”

That sounds like liberal moral relativism to me! Surely values and ethics are set by God and are unchangeable?

The story is spreading but people are clearly not comfortable talking about it. Probably because they have abandoned hope.

There are bodies all over Ireland but this story had a profound effect on me. When I look at the summer landscape I don’t feel cheer but only tears.

Welcome to Fascism.

And all that time, energy and struggle about the murder of Savita Hallapanavar, the episcopal reversal of the Supreme Court decision on Abortion, and the endless, mindless rhetoric about the “rights of the unborn child”; the endless articles by Opus Dei-like journalists all over the media, the repetitious non-sense, the impenetrable dogmatic concern for the Irish child (unborn, of course), and now the proof of what happened in our County Homes to ‘bastards’ or ‘illegitimate children’ and their unfortunate mothers. I alwasy knew that the abortionists who ran over to pagan England to get some human treatment for their predicament, were instinctually correct about the cruelties of the Catholic-dominated Irish, a chalk-statue society more given to Pavlovian mantras than to anything approximating concerned reason. From the early middle ages, when the Papacy designed to overrun the Celtic Church and supplant it with British hegemony, the entire race of Irish have been misled, abused, exploited and bullied. Now that we know the enemy, let’s challenge the bastards!

How can anyone believe there is a god after reading that horrendous story, it just goes to show there is no religion and its all a hoax for the braindead sheeple , I am ashamed to be part of the human race .

I have tried to find a response from the Irish government but can’t, has there been any official response ?

Thank you Bock, I must say I,m a hardened bastard but this shook me , just when you think the depravity of the Catholic Church can not get worse then along comes this. This should be lifted out of Ireland and investigated by European police and courts , there is no will in Ireland to get to grips with what has been a very dark chapter in Ireland . 800 babies and toddlers dumped in a septic tank in any society indicates there is something very wrong and sick about it. Yes I’m sad for the poor women who were imprisioned there and who must have gone mad with grief at their loss , the sheer scale of the numbers is staggering. We are talking about a death camp.

I have emailed Youth Defence & Iona for their official responses, I await a reply. If I get anything I’ll share it.

Why use the term “Irish Shoah”? “Shoah” refers specifically to a particular historical event. As bad as it was it shouldn’t be used as a yardstick to measure suffering.

If people now still can’t see that religion is a FARCE and there to control the masses then how can they still believe that the is a god when the alleged perpetrators are acting on this so called gods are doing it in his name . I am just glad that I am an atheist if this is what your god allows in his name Between priests molesting children for hundreds of years and NUNS then what hope there is for humanity . I suggest that even today this sort of thing still continues and with the full knowledge of the top people in the CHURCH. There is I have been told hospitals with ward’s in the UK and Ireland called black wards where severely disabled babies and children are operated on for experimental perposes so now it seems the vile corrupt CHURCH and It’s represented priests and NUNS are not only molesting children in Gods name but also Murdering them too and all in the name of a fictious God and a fairy tale of JESUS and people are doing nothing about it because it doesn’t effect them or their families . Their self first self second and anything left over SELF AGAIN it makes me sick to my soul and let’s not forget SATANIC killings in IRELA OVER THE LASDT 50 YEARS WHICH STILL GOES ON TO THIS DAY . JUST LOOK AT THE MISSING PEOPLE IN Ireland over the last 50 year’s or so Fiona Pender come to mind along with dozens of others with I suggest with the knowledge of the Church and being involved in such acts . I REST MY CASE SO PEOPLE WAKE UP.

I think it was Mannix Flynn, a survivor of the gulag called Letterfrack who said that Ireland was one big crime scene. Hard to take this in. It just leaves you in such shock. Imagine the contempt and hatred directed towards these poor vulnerable women. Like a torture chamber.

And we have a leader who personally asked the new Pope to visit Ireland during his visit to the Vatican a few weeks ago! The’ authorities’ will want this to go away just like they whitewashed the incarceration of the Magdalene women in the laundry hell holes courtesy of the Mc Aleese report. Jesus fucking help us!

You really need to read more critically. At this stage no bones have even been found and its likely there is no septic tank and no mass grave. Its probably just a regular grave with decayed markers like countless across the country. Its likely that no wrong doing has occurred but only time will tell. The only thing we can learn is from the death certificates. All they show there were seriously underfunded maternity centres in 1940s Ireland.

So those who discovered it were mistaken and the priest that came along to apologize needn’t have done so because there was nothing for which to express sorrow?

Well did this happen or not or is there are people writing here who do know the truth but are trying to cover it up on the pretext that their doing it for themselves but actually are doing it to leave a false trail for TPTB .

I am not going to stand over the action of some random priest. At this stage all we have are death certs. It is likely they are buried there but we don’t know. In my opinion its extremely that were thrown into some mass septic tank. Unmarked graves are not uncommon. Time will tell.

Johannes’ Reply : I am not going to stand over the action of some random priest. At this stage all we have are death certs. It is likely they are buried there but we don’t know. In my opinion its extremely that were thrown into some mass septic tank. Unmarked graves are not uncommon. Time will tell.

I don’t know who Johannes imagines himself to be… He could give his true name and address… But the tone is imperious, dismissive and rather supercilious. The same arugments were put forward for buggering priests in Ireland; no one ever went to the endemic beatings which the clergy carried out in all the schools of Ireland , which they came to possess. Why? Because at that time, there were enough people alive in Ireland who could instantly recall such events, so that the RCC, the Jesuits, Franciscans and Domininans, IONA, their subversive servants and agents could not deny. As to the Septic Tank in Tuam, the same bones were found in Carlow’s old Gaol and were sold on without the story being revealed; yet the diggers found them and knew what they found. Carlow Gaol is next to where the County Home was, and far from the County Homes, where ‘illigitimate children’ qua ‘bastards’ were imprisoned for life, the same institution covering the same ground as one-time execution site and home for single mothers.

We still have living memory of these places. Not much, perhaps, but enough to contradict the very pernicious notion that the fate of these children and their mothers depends on one or two prieshteens. I am old enough to remember what they were like; but nothing compares to the description a friend of mine, recently deceased, gave of their tenure throughout his own childhood. Anyone today in their eighties I believe will give a faithful account of these awful institutions.

Indeed, to revert back to the ordinary schools, where to my certain knowledge the nuns, priests, christian brothers and lay brothers, beat children daily and at will for no other reason than that they had Pavlovian powers over them. What these very frustrated people did in the Reformatory Schools and Magdalene Laundries we already know, despite the attempts of the civil servants in the dept. of Justice and Mary McAleese’s husband to deny it.

Moreover, back in the late twenties and early thirties, there were several unmistakably signs of the totalitarian Papal State Cumann na nGaedhael (FG) and Fianna Fail under De Velera allowed to develop, right up to our ralining of the Nazies, mass emigration, the sale of children to the US and Australia, the censorship laws, the punishment of mitchers and those who avoided school, the sexual repressions, the murder cases that flowed directly from the Reformatory schools, and, of course, if we wanted further evidence, all we have to do is look at Ken Loach’s wonderful depiction of the clerically-led authorities in the presence of Jimmy Gralton, our own native communistic HO Chi Minh!.

Of course it has nothing to do with one prieshteen: the Septic Tank in Tuam has the fingerprints of our Holy-Roman-Church-And-“Irish”-State all over it.

Sb

http://www.irish-criminology.com

There’s one of you talking of an investigation. Do you expect us to rely on any investigation on this story which is already too hot to handle for the authorities , I have already made my judgement and I don’t need an investigation to tell me more lies. So you know what you can do with your INVESTIGATION, some people are so gullible it beggars belief.

Are you saying there is conspiracy at hand? That the state is afraid to investigate? Isn’t that bit far fetched.

Yes thats exactly what I’m saying , it seems you live in a world of cotton wool. I have investigated hundreds of things going on and if you don’t believe that governments can and do and cover-up things going on then keep taking your meds because if your not on meds then you really ought to be coming out with shore explanations like you have. WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD.

Bock,

Will do.

DEREK Gough,
Cover ups can occur but its simply not parsimonious to suggest that at this point. There is no evidence for it yet.

Check ouy the ITCCS website and read about their case and findings in Canada. There is verdicts reached in the common law court about the murder of the children of the Church operated residential schools(Catholic Anglican and united church)

A very relevant posting M. Wilson. Further detail here. Bock, apologies if this may appear to digress from the main point at hand, but a lot of similiarities…

“In late 2011 in Brantford, Ontario, history was made with the uncovering of forensic evidence of the burial of children at the oldest Indian residential school in Canada.

Despite subsequent attempts by the Church and Crown of England and their aboriginal agents to discredit and conceal this evidence of their crimes, this first unveiling of mass graves has prompted new disclosures of genocide across Canada”

http://itccs.org/mass-graves-of-children-in-canada-documented-evidence/

In 1870 a school was set up in the Six Nations community targeting Mohawk children from all Mohawk communities. They were incarcerated and exterminated. Forensic evidence substantiates that the Crown of England, Vatican, Canadian government and churches carried out the killings of 50,000 Indigenous children across Canada. 40% of the students were murdered.

http://mohawknationnews.com/blog/tag/mush-hole/

“Forensic evidence substantiates that the Crown of England, Vatican, Canadian government and churches carried out the killings of 50,000 Indigenous children across Canada. 40% of the students were murdered.”

Do you even believe that? This thread is getting wackier and wackier.

It’s because of people like you that these things happen and its because people like you try to put ideas into people’s minds that its all hearsay . Are you working on behalf of TPTB. The only wacky oneis you if you expect people to believe what you believe, do some research before you open your mouth .

The only wacky one here is you because you seem to represent TPTB. Your trying your best to get others to believe that this story is rubbish and made-up and your doing it to cover some backs.

Why, don’t you? What proof do you bring to the table to counteract it?

Generally, given the way indigenous people were treated by colonisers across the Americas, Africa and Australia and specifically in the sheer amount of documentation on the Mohawk Institute, I’ve no problem believing this.

But we digress, this thread is about Tuam. I raised the Canadian issue just to show the stark similiarities in the way underclass children were treated in bothlife and death.

Many first nations kids were indeed treated very badly and there were abusive schools but I have yet to see evidence of murder or ritual sacrifice by priests. Additionally, its wrong to assume the murder occurred simply because of past mistreatment. Think of the law of independent events.

Thank you so much for writing this. You captured perfectly many of my sentiments. Yes, where are the pro-lifers? It’s time to stop calling them that — they’re pro-birthers at best. What a horrendous crime this was . . . and doubtless there are similar crimes still happening like it in various parts of the world (recently here in the states there was case of a reform school in Florida that bears some similarity to this case). I agree with your rage and I admire the way you expressed it.

Well Elizabeth,

I would gladly describe myself as pro birth and I shudder to think that some people especially women are anti birth. #prochoiceisirrational.

Its beyond outlandish to expect pro life human rights activists to make a statement on a speculated event not yet investigated. There is something called due progress.

Johannes, this is not Twitter. Why are you using hashtags?

There might be something called due process, but I have never heard of due progress, and since there is no legal case involved, if you did mean due process, it doesn’t apply here. Likewise, I don’t know what you mean by parsimonious, but it certainly doesn’t mean what you think it means.

If you’re going to be condescending, at least try to get the basics right.

For someone claiming to have been patronised to you really aren’t making much of an effort to be civil.

I am going to reiterate my point. It is simply implausible that the Irish state is covering this up. The notion is just not parsimonious.

I didn’t claim to have been patronised. You really need to read more critically.

Parsimonious? You’re taking the piss, aren’t you?

Johannes give you brain a rest its obvious to everyone your trying to discreted this horrendous story . Are you part of TPTB .

To continue learning about state-run religious/state crimes in the 1900’s, against children and infants, primarily Native Americans, go to the following website of Rev. Kevin Annette : ” itcc.org”

Parsimonious can mean stingy but it is also widely used in logic/sciences e.g. the parsimonious explanation (The simplest expression of scientific truth) or the law of parsimony i.e Occam’s Razor. Google if for yourself.

You’re struggling badly there, Johannes. You must be new here, or you’d realise I have very little patience with bullshit.

I mistyped progress earlier but I did use the term parsimonious correctly and you ought to know that.

Don’t tell me what I ought to know.

You came here, Johannes, to talk down to other commenters, to muddy the waters and to deflect from what is being revealed about the Tuam scandal. However, you’re far from the first to try that.

Johannes is basically right. So far we have evidence that 796 children died in this ‘home’ based on official records held, I believe, by the county council. The historian who got the records speculates that they are buried in that plot of land. There are also stories bones found in 1975. They may perhaps be unrelated. Not one sod of turf has yet been overturned. The ‘septic tank’ may not be a septic tank – nobody has seen it yet.

Johannes is deliberately emphasising the irrelevant. The fact is that hundreds of children died from malnutrition and curable illnesses. The septic tank is a secondary insult.

Still no reply from IONA or Youth Defence to my email seeking their official position on this. Not really surprised.

“the fact is that hundreds of children died from malnutrition and curable illnesses. The septic tank is a secondary insult.”
eh actually if you care to remember what you wrote in this article you will recall your whole point was the stance of YD and Iona. If there is any expert in the irrelevant, it is you!

“Still no reply from IONA or Youth Defence to my email seeking their official position on this. Not really surprised.”

Bock,

Just calling out hypocrisy.

With all the scandal over the years with the Catholic Church in Ireland…
That their followers, of that out dated cult still flock to their church..

The way I look at it is (for example) if McDonalds were serving Dolphin/Whale meat passed as burgers, people would vote with their feet and those places would be empty..
With all the scandal in the Catholic Church, this does not happen..
Are they too blinded by their faith…. and give every excuse to appeal the actions of what their cult did in the past.

Me thinks religion is dead and gone….
And to what has happen in Tuam… has sicken me to the pit of my stomach

Bock,

I was talking to No.8 and yourself in that particular post.

Maddhatter Teacups,

“The way I look at it is (for example) if McDonalds were serving Dolphin/Whale meat passed as burgers, people would vote with their feet and those places would be empty..”

The key is to hold those guilty responsible. If McDonalds were caught serving Dolphin/Whale meat they would would not be dead and gone at all. They would regain business as soon as they tightened to up their act and regained trust. So in this case you can only hold this specific order of nuns responsible, not religion or the Pope or anyone else. The buck stops with them.

Thank you Bock for giving these mothers and babies back some of their integrity , they had none in that place but at least you have stepped forward and done your bit to rectify that . Yes it has become known in Scandinavia what The Irish State did in Tuam Galway assisted by their local branch of the female Taliban . Feelings here are disgust and amazement that the police are not tearing the place down for answers. I have difficulty explaining to decent people here how all this could happen in holy Ireland .

@ Johannes….

Here you go again…
It wasn’t us it was them…
They (the nuns responsible for that order) are all under the one organisation
and yes (your pope) is the MD of the whole lot..
or who ever was in charge of the Irish Catholic Organisation at the the time…
They/the nuns where under command of the Catholic Religion sect… or to whatever way they decided to express their faith under the Catholic ethos….
The Catholic Church at the time, were practically given the keys of the schools, hospitals and parts of the Social services at the time, they ran those places without question and didn’t have to answer to anyone and imposed their Catholic ways and beliefs on everyone that was under them….
So we can only hold one specific order of nuns responsible…
There must not be many more orders of nuns, priests, brothers left with all the scandals of that religious organisation…

Maddhatter Teacups,

There have been many attempts in court to hold the Pope responsible for crimes committed by Catholics. Each time has failed and they will always fail as it is a non runner legally, morally etc.

Bock! at least the story of the 800 Galway Babies has got coverage around the globe and that may put pressure on the Irish government to investigate using the tools at it’s disposal . Europe will be watching as to how this work is carried out . It seems the Irish State seems to shy away from confronting this organisation in the past and little indicates they have the stomach to take them on but failing to do so will have consequences for the state’s standing in a european context . A state refusing to act in a deliberate and stringent manner in bringing this to clearence may find itself being questioned by other bodies on mainland Europe.

Bock,

According to CNN quoting a Police Sgt. involved in the investigation, the bodies were not found in a septic tank but rather in a mass grave and I suspect that the septic tank story is an anti-catholic media “garnishment” just to make the whole horrible discovery appear even worse. All deaths were recorded and the records were handed over to the Government. 796 deaths all told I believe, and causes cover a wide range including infectious diseases much of it TB, malnourishment, neglect.

Now you have to relate this to the times. We today are inclined to think that our wonderful scientifically advanced environment was always there —- it was not at all. The world in 1925 was very very different from the world of today and survival rates of children were considerably lower then. Diseases such as TB and polio to mention two, were the ferocious scourge of children, and be sure that a sizeable portion of people reading me now would not have lived to their teens had they been born then. Anti-biotics were not around and this made a big difference. Even for a long time after their discovery, they were still not easy to obtain as it took time to organise the infrastructure for their mass production. Medical and nursing care and management of hygiene have come a long way since then. So appalling as the matter seems to us today, you can’t judge it by todays standards.

Now, you might say, why were these little children all put into a mass grave? Why could they not be accorded some respect? Some may ask, why not just burn them, or to use the respectable term, cremate them. There is no difference really: Ever seen a paupers grave with maybe dozens of bodies just bundled up into a sack and discarded like rubbish? This was the standard then and like it or not, it still is. Just the method has changed.

The local gardai, a force not noted for their cutting-edge engagement with reality, have chosen not to investigate this. I would place little reliance on the local sergeant’s opinion.

We do not have to relate it to the times. The treatment of babies in these institutions was so horrific that the chief medical examiner unilaterally closed down the Bessborough home and sacked the matron.

I find this argument about different times very sinister. What else would you have us forget from the 1930s and 1940s?

On a radio interview with some Tuam locals today, they made the point that multiple families of 10-13 were successfully raised on the minimum wage. The nuns were being funded with a far more generous stipend per child, yet they died of malnutrition. What gives?

I’ve no time for this bleating of “sure t’was the 20’s”. We’re not talking about 1850’s London here. Sanitation, germ control, nutritional understanding were all well understood. Also it was open from ’25 -’64, so antibiotics were available for more than half it’s existence. Yet still they died like flies, at te rate of one afortnight. As you say Bock, Bessborough House provides a damning snapshot of “care” at the time. And the fact that when the cage was rattled, influence was directed right to the top including bishops, nuncios and ol’ Dec himself.

Check this out, it would draw tears from a stone.

“Report Into the History of Adoption in Ireland Since 1922 by Adoption Rights Now!

in summary it states:
We would like to make one point absolutely clear. These horrors cannot be blamed on a rogue nun or two, or even an order of nuns. The adoption industry was a cold blooded, calculated and well organized machine that was personally run by Archbishop McQuaid and shielded by Eamon de Valera for much of it‘s existence.

It involved many hundreds, if not thousands of nuns of various orders, and priests, bishops and archbishops, over it’s lifetime. This church run, state funded Adoption Machine waged a concerted, vicious, and savage war on the most vulnerable citizens of the Irish state. For decades. For generations

http://gamacavei.wordpress.com/2013/08/28/report-into-the-history-of-adoption-in-ireland-since-1922-by-adoption-rights-now/

“The adoption industry was a cold blooded, calculated and well organized machine” Well why shouldn’t it be? Adoption is better then orphanages or industrial schools.

If run properly, and for the right motives yes. But they clearly weren’t and there’s the rub. The rest of the summary, paraphrased:

“The mortality rates from the Mother & Baby homes speak clearly of the direct results of the nuns policies, practices, and attitudes towards unmarried mothers.

We are clearly stating on the record that at least 10,000 babies were neglected to death. We believe the Sisters of the Sacred Heart of Jesus are responsible for at least 2,500 to 3,500 of these deaths and the evidence so far uncovered backs up this truth with incontrovertible facts and a clear pattern of neglecting babies and children to death.”

“demented, sexually-frustrated evil nuns and brothers who took their rage out on the unfortunates who fell into their clutches, or who were driven there by Monsignor Everyman in his fine parish priest’s motor car.”

This article is as a mad as a hatter. Maria Monk style.

Johannes — He said “adoption industry”, not “adoption”. Don’t try to twist people’s words.

Secondly, don’t try to justify one evil by comparing it to another. That’s one of the oldest and most dishonest tricks in the book. I’m surprised they didn’t teach you a better standard of logic than that shabby attempt.

More trite and patronising dismissal.
Ever hear or experience the Christian Brothers? The (non) Mercy sisters?

Tell us Johannes, are you a native of these shores? Such ready dismissal and occasionally odd syntax leads me to believe you’re not, and leads me to believe this all just an abstraction to you. Unless you’re taking this view just to rile us.

On another point, why did you post using seperate names a few days ago? Such sock puppetry tends to undermine any argument.

Are the Gardai going to investigate? What are they for? Are they going to call in forensic experts to determine how these unfortunate children died? I think they would in other countries. We know now that children were raped, starved, assaulted violently and treated like slaves in the industrial Gulag system called the Industrial schools.

That they had no names and were given numbers like in the concentration camps. That children were more than likely murdered and buried in unmarked graves in Letterfrack , Daingean and other places.

We also know about the Magdalene women who were used as slaves by the nuns and that it was a business and the Irish State was involved. I think you are in denial Johannes and fail to see how destructive and evil, the influence of the Catholic Church has been.

Native American children were incarcerated in Catholic and Protestant boarding schools in the US and Canada. Thousands were murdered by the religious fanatics who ran these places. Read up on it:

http://www.skeptic.ca/Native_Residential_SChools.htm

Bock, thanks for putting these posts out. They are necessary. And nothing would surprise me about what happened in those hell holes for the mothers and their kids. Beyond words.

It’s obvious there is at least one troll on this thread. Bottom line: for years pro-life groups have been claiming they offer better alternatives than abortion. Here is an example of an epic fail in their “alternatives.” And they remain silent. How/why should any pregnant woman trust their claims that adoption is a loving alternative when they fail to jump in a condemn such abuses?

The great thing about trolls is that they generally don’t realise the damage they’re doing to their own cause by behaving like arrogant clowns.

no organisation has done so much damage to society the catholic church.it supposed to be founded on love and r goodness,yet they were monsters and perverts protected by the state.it is the most unfit organisation to teach anything about god.its a sick joke. the gards not to investigate is an insult and contempt for whats right.once again an irish way of not dealing with truth. any body found anywhr else would be investigated , as long as its not in the grounds of the catholic orders. the church and the vatican to lie and are corrupt .they are complicit in hideing there paedophile priests. truth is bigger than the church law weaker than truth.lies come out of fear.dont bury them in faces as a grave and blame it on the famine,

Bock

You are only calling me an arrogant clown as you can’t field a rational coherent defence of your sensational rag article Anyway I know better then to take offence at being harassed and bulled here. Swimming against the tide makes people uncomfortable. It takes neck to speak out.

From The irish examiner, as highlighted on Boards.ie today:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/midwifersquos-memoir-reveals-the-horror-of-bessborough-271158.html

Women who gave birth at the notorious Bessborough mother-and-baby home in Cork were not allowed pain relief during labour or stitches after birth, and when they developed abscesses from breast-feeding they were denied penicillin.

One nun who ran the labour ward in 1951 also forbid any “moaning or screaming” during childbirth.

In the memoir, published in 1998, she recounts how, at her first Bessborough birth, she asked someone at the hospital what painkillers were used in labour.

“Nobody gets any here, nurse, They just have to suffer,” she was told.

When Ms Goulding asked why she could not access needles to stitch women who had been torn during childbirth, she was told she was not allowed to open the cabinet. “I’m afraid, nurse, the key to that cabinet has never been handed over. Girls must suffer their pain and put up with the pain of being torn — she [the nun] says they should atone for their sin.”

Some charity and compassion there eh? If these nuns are still alive, I’d like to see them grilled on their views now…due process of course.

In reference to my earlier post, looks like antibiotics available from the mid ’40’s on, made bugger all difference with this mentality.

To everyone on this thread: by dismissing Johannes so swiftly and with such venom, you really have shown yourselves to be weak-minded fools driven by a lust for conspiracy theories and anti-religious bigotry.

The selfless Sisters of Bon Secours have never harmed anyone, ever, in any age, for any reason.

A complete, honest and factual account of their history can be read at this link:
http://www.bonsecours.ie/sistersofbonsecours-ourhistory.

This website is live and up to date. All the facts of the history of the organisation are there for you to read. In real time.

You will find: no mention of catastrophic child mortality rates; nothing on the wholesale export of babies; zero reports about the maltreatment of orphans and unmarried mothers; no evidence of violence against the irreligious; no proof that they hated protestants (good news for a loyalist like me!), and of course, nothing about child rape.

These sisters were/are good people.

In the midst of writing this post I have just read (via the BBC) that the Irish justice minister has ordered a police report on all the information it has on the deaths of almost 800 children at a mother and baby home in the Republic of Ireland. I’m gonna send him the link to this website where he too can get all the information he needs!

Give truth a chance.

“The selfless Sisters of Bon Secours have never harmed anyone, ever, in any age, for any reason.”

Leslie, you are clearly mad.

Leslie. What venom?

Joannes was dismissive and patronising and also sock puppetted.bhe also avoided answering points put to him and twisted my very words to obfuscate the issue.

Frankly we replied in far gentler coin than he did.

I’m a university professor of English. As such, I’d like to make a comment about the reliability of sources. One person posted that there is a link provided by an order of nuns (the Bonsecours) who ran the orphan/maternity services in the place where the bodies of these precious children were found. That person commented that this link provides a history of the order and that no mention is made in this link of any history of child abuse, child mortality, etc. I’m here to say that such a source is completely unreliable in determining the extent to which this order was/was not involved in what appear to be crimes against humanity. Nobody would expect such a link to provide unbiased information. The reliable sources in this discussion are the forensic evidence from the actual site of the travesty (800 bodies of children buried in a septic tank) and the witness testimony cited from a linked article quoting a published source on the subject of how women were treated in a maternity home provided by another order (the Sisters of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and Mary).

Bock, good article. One thing though, the children were victims of a conspiracy , betwen church, state, and society. The respectable parents wanted their daughter to go away, and return without baby, in order that she might have a shot at life. Unmarried mothers were not permitted. It suited the rest of us to have the problem locked away behin walls where we did not have to look at it. So we, as a society, permitted it. Frankly I believe at the time not many people gave a toss about the fate of the children behind those walls. The state did not regard them as citizens, and the rest of us were not much better. You mention the Irish Shoah known as the Great Famine – very relavent. We turned our backs on them also, “the paupers” – I think your article hits at some very dirty linen in the Irish psyche, not yet dealt with, and probably doing damage. Have we changed much?, A little maybe, but look at the resources we put into looking after our present-day vulnerable children? That answers it for me!

Dez,
I have tried to answer every point addressed to me. I have never engaged in name calling and always stayed on topic.

Bock,
Considering that YD, Iona and the PLC have all made comments on Tuam in the last few days I presume you will praise their moves?

I read David Quinn’s spin piece. Did you notice that there is not a single mention in it of the word Catholic? Did you notice that he tries to pretend the death rate in the homes was the same as the general population? Or that he devotes a quarter of the article to a Protestant home? Dave did the minimum he thought he might get away with.

Please provide a link to the Youth Defence statement, and clarify what you mean by PLC.

In 1328 the RCC arrested and executed by burning at the stake one Adam Dubh O’Toole, a Gaelic Chieftain. O’Toole’s crimes had been to deny his belief in the Immaculate Conception, the Resurrection, and, inter alia, belief in the Christian conquest threatening his country through the Christian conquest.

In the 1930s Jimmy Gralton, one of the very few communists in Ireland at a time when the continents and the UK was rigidly divided between Fascists (Papal, Italian, Spanish, Croatian, Portuguese, Austrian, German, etc.). Jimmy Gralton was not burned at a stake in Trinity College Dublin, as was Adam Dubh O’Toole; he was rather deported.

Between 1328 and 1932 the RCC eradicated all trances of pagan Gaelic culture, polgamy, gaelic language, Brehon law, familial sexual and customary habits, and generally speaking governed the ‘Catholic mind’ up to the Reformation (with the British) and thereafter through its bishops.

The Irish Parish Priest has occupied the seat of all those Chieftains who governed Ireland ever since. Through education and international influence the RCC owns mostly everything it ever wanted to own, including over 90% of Irish schools — and anyone who ever was successful in Irish politics or in the professions and trades, have received the imprimatur of the RCC.

To talk about one scandal is infinitely useless in the face of so many scandals originated, maintained and actually cherished by the RCC. Children born out of wedlock were knows as “Bastards”, and their mothers were regarded as ‘fallen’ and ‘unworthy’. Just as in ancient times, when the Papacy regarded all pagans (ergo all Gaelic-speaking Ireland) as ‘heretics’, so,too, were ‘bastards’ regarded as sinners.

Now, what ‘heretics’ and ‘sinners’ translated into socially was ‘untermenschen’, people who were inferior, who did not — and should not — count. All Ireland, therefore, was from the start of the Christian conquest regarded first by the Holy Romans and then, sedulously and overtly, by their allies in arms, the French-Norman, Welsh-Norman and Britons, as perfectly inferior.

And when hordes of Augustinians, Franciscans, Dominicans and Cistersians were introduced into Ireland, they colonised not so much like sheep as goats and used the armed services of the Pope, the Knights Templars and the Hospitalers, to protect their dispossessing of the pagan natives.

In many ways, therefore, things have built up over the centuries on this primal inferior basis. The use of rules to put down women in general is well know; the use of rules to keep down their status is to be found in the manner the RCC hogged reproduction, education and censorship. In ‘churching’ women up to recently they, the celibates from Rome, kept full control over women.

The Septic Tank in Tuam comes as no surprise to anyone who is old enough to remember the hegemonic position of the RCC and the deferred role of women and children in the midst of those with the ‘holy fingers’. Women were abused universally and since the time of Adam Dubh O Toole hardly a chieftain or an Irishman could be found to protect Irish women from the worst ravages of the roman church. And women themselves were not much help either!

So, what we see is a succession of scandals that never quite seems to end. All that has really happened is that through the EU, TV a little travel, an exodus of Irish comics to the UK, and a few other shallow signs, is that the mediaeval RCC mind, the best organiser and totalitarian talent ever devised in the world, has been seen through a glass darkly. In any other people, they would have reformed the entire brigade of them long ago. But reformation is the last thing a beaten people can see, especially when they have lost language, laws, religious and secular government, self-esteem, and the wit to know how they have historically lost these things, including the recent loss of Irish sovereignty to the still secret ‘BondHolders.’

And having said all that , and having watched the wizardry of the Archbishop of Dublin confuse the childish state yet again in the ‘Abortion Debate’, having seen the manner in which Opus Dei have been deployed in the Press, TV and Media, and having seen how the Bishops can still muzzle the people and at the drop of a mitre lead out gangs of shameless experts to assure the people that they will clear up all manner of disease with the help and assistance and direction of holy mother church.

The mind boggles.

Having witnessed all these things over decades of Irish life, I am convinced that if there are people who genuinely want to save Ireland they have little by way of choice. Those who would change Ireland have but one choice; they must go into the churches regularly and preach secularism to the people: preach to them how they have been utterly destroyed by those amongst them who are the most foreign and organised, but the least spiritual; explain to them how they must resurrect their own self-powers, deriving same — IF POSSIBLE at this remove — from their own pagan past, and in that manner drive out the head-scratchers whose prime passion is to keep them separate, uneducated, unthinking and as biddable as sheep.

In this regard they should examine all powers of the RCC at home and abroad, schools, hospitals, government, local and national, charities, at home and abroad, confiscate idle churches where God lives and give them to the homeless. In general I think they might look at the first Constitution drawn up by the Mexican Government during the Christeros War and limit the more extreme drives and passions and privileges of intellectual power of the RCC over the more superstitious. And if this requires the instant abolition of chalk-statues then the sooner the better.

In this vein, without being as totalitarian as the roman church, the Irish people will over two generations or so grow a less subdued and a much more egalitarian people — a people who are less weak-minded and if still spiritual-minded, then a lot more spiritually realist than ever before.

http://www.irish-criminology.com

I have never heard of Adam Dubh O’Toole but I’m sure he was executed for heresy (perhaps a proxy charge for fomenting rebellion?) … but “inter alia, [for] belief in the Christian conquest threatening his country” does not follow. When “hordes” of Augustinians, Franciscans, Dominicans and Cistercians arrived there were no pagan natives in Ireland and there hadn’t been for some centuries. (PS Trinity College didn’t exist in 1328.)

Anyone who ever was successful in Irish politics or in the professions and trades, during Penal times, was Protestant.
The “RCC” has never really had a university in Ireland – we would like one of those. Bishops dropping their mitres would be an odd thing to do! :-)

Pagan Gaelic culture was horrible, it had very little good in it and much bad. Do you also wish to resurrect slavery from our pagan past? Was its abolition not an improvement?
Pagans are not and never have been regarded as heretics, they are pagans. Heretics are Catholics who teach some serious error. (“Bastards” is a word with a secular life all of its own). Pagans, bastards, Catholics and all people who lived were regarded as sinners. Everyone is a sinner. The people of Ireland were not regarded by the Catholic Church as ‘untermenschen’ but as people needing improvement, correction, chastisement…

We see a succession of scandals that never quite seems to end. This is very true.

The 1917 Mexican Constitution would be impossible in a world that recognises human rights. Confiscate all our property if you like, reinstitute the penal laws – it’s been done before to little effect. Please preach to me the tenets of secularism. Save yourself the trip to a church.

Bock: very interesting debate you’ve provoked here. My own miserly contribution was intended as an ironic one – highlighting the fact that despite everything that has (and continues) to be revealed, the Sisters of Bon Secours still paint a saintly online picture of their work through the decades. Shameful, shameless and unsurprising.

A secular revolution in Ireland, on both sides of the border, but especially in the south, would be very welcome. But as Seamus (I think) pointed out, the directionless hoards still turn up every sunday to listen to the fundamentalists peddle their rubbish. I console myself that the numbers of church goers are dwindling and that many brave people – from local historians to journalists and bloggers – continue to revise received history with an eye firmly fixed on truth.

To Johanes I have nothing to say.

To Gavin, I suspect we need coin a phrase (a la Godwins Law) for those that instantly resurrect the spectre of British Rule in Ireland when anyone dares to criticise the more recent history of post independence Ireland.

To Peter: the method of burial is probably less important than the instinctive cruelty and the sheer number of deaths The Sisters of Bon Secours presided over.

And despite the horrors being endlessly revealed about the collusion between the RCC and FF/FG between 1921-2001 (or 2014?) – and despite my passionate secularism – I’m still more angry about the past decade’s financial catastrophe and the ease with which everyone responsible escaped. To crash and burn an entire state requires a particular blend of inhumanity. Although I guess this anger belongs on another thread.

Peter, nice effort at deflection, but I’m afraid you’re out of luck. Nothing will stop the investigation now.

All the facts are coming out.

Leslie, It was seamus breathnach that brought up British rule. I just responded to his bait.

Back to the original point
Silence from Self-Described Pro-Life Groups Over Mass Burial of 800 Babies? It seems that there may not have been a mass burial of 800 babies to be silent about.

Hopefully the investigation will extend to cover the county homes(former workhouses) and the wide range of “inmates” they had.

Gavin, no doubt you’re a regular reader of newspapers and other sources. You will be well aware that the substance of the argument is in the body, not the headline.

I guess no one has heard that this turned out to be a hoax. The MSM is a tad embarrassed to have found out they were duped. It all unraveled when the person credited with exposing the case said recently “wtf… I never said that! I have no part in this.”

I guess you didn’t get the memo about the commission of investigation. Or maybe news coverage isn’t great over there in the States.

Interesting comments from abroad.
Is putting dumb with yank a bit of a superfluous redundant pleonastic tautology?

We do of course. Just not on this occasion.
Sorry, I’m being bould, again. There’s no excuse for that comment though.
And “the person” didn’t say “wtf… I never said that! I have no part in this”

Are you feeling a bit of a fool after your septic tank comments above?
You should be.
What else have you been wrong about?

Why would I be feeling a fool? 800 babies in Tuam are buried in unmarked graves, and more facts emerge every day. What’s more, a formal commission of investigation has been set up to examine what happened in all the mother and baby homes, despite the efforts of certain people to silence the questions. So all in all, I’d call that a good day’s work. Wouldn’t you?

Bock,

You are just about as up-to-date sometimes as high buckle shoes and tricorn hats.

Several media sources have since apologized for misreporting and Catherine Corless has adamantly insisted that she “never said that 800 bodies were dumped in a septic tank”.

That statement originally came from The Guardian.

Your statement above: “………..we do know that in Tuam over a 36 year period from 1925 to 1961, they routinely tossed dead toddlers and infants into an old septic tank just like so much rubbish at the rate of one child every two weeks”.
(The septic tank was in normal use up to 1938).

“800 bodies were found and still counting”. is the presentation as though bodies were being dug up. There was no digging at the time and all 796 babies were identified from records.

The septic tank became disused in 1938 and there fledgling plans to turn it into a crypt but these never materialized.

The death rate at that time was not particularly high given the scientific knowledge of medicine, nursing and hygiene in those years. It WAS very much an 1850’s situation and the advances that we are familiar with today did not really take off until the late 50’s.
That death rate today would merit a major inquiry but not then.

Interesting little detail here: Among the remains, we may find one or two DECAPITATED babies. Hmmm!

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