Bishop of Galway Still Hung Up on The Gay

 Posted by on September 4, 2014  Add comments
Sep 042014
 

Archbishop Martin Drennan, Archbishop of Galway, has spoken out against a grant by the St Vincent de Paul Society to an LGBT centre in Galway.

Apparently, he objects to the grant on what he calls “moral grounds”.

Now, given Martin Drennan’s history, you might have thought that he’d be keeping his head down, but not a bit of it.

Just to refresh your memory, Martin was one of the auxiliary bishops in Dublin who failed abjectly to deal with clerical sexual abuse and who refused to resign when asked to do so.  He clung to his opposition like a limpet, much to the disgust of Archbishop Diarmuid Martin and now here he is again, obsessed with people’s nether regions.

What a pity he didn’t show such diligence when priests under his control were abusing children wholesale in the Dublin diocese, instead of worrying about things that don’t affect him.

What a fine Christian man this bishop is.

______________________

The Purple Haze of Doctor Dre

 

  107 Responses to “Bishop of Galway Still Hung Up on The Gay”

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  1.  

    A bad yoke, him.

  2.  

    Bock,

    The Bishop of Galway is simply being faithful to his office and more so to God with this action. Institutional homosexuality, such as LGBT, has no friendly ground with the Christian Church, irrespective of whether they are Catholic or Protestant, and Vincent De Paul is absolutely wrong in giving out grants to these people. For many Catholics and others who donate it is very demoralizing to see how their alms are being dispensed. Maybe we should donate to The Salvation Army in future as I suppose that they might be more reliable stewarts of what they are entrusted with.

    If the bishop mishandled things in the past in the execution of his office this has nothing to do with his action now.

    Now, on the matter of his refusal to resign, don’t be too concerned about the “disgust of Archbishop Diarmuid Martin”, seeing that you hate him as much as you hate the Bishop of Galway and would turn on him as quickly if he didn’t meet you demands. I told you before, that internal affairs within the Catholic Church are a matter for Catholics only: outsiders, especially those who hate us such as yourself, have no say or demand about this, and here, once, I tell you politely on behalf of the Church, to mind your own business.
    If the Church really thinks that a person should not hold office for any reason whatsoever, they can discharge him, and as yet, Bishop Martin Drennan is seen fit to be where he is.

  3.  

    I see that among your many other gifts you’ve also become a mind reader.

    When your bishops keep their noses out of our lives, I’ll stay out of your internal affairs.

    Until then, you know where you can shove your veiled threats.

  4.  

    Iap337. You speak on behalf of the Catholic Church? You hold a senior office holder’s position? Would you refuse charity or kindness to a murderer or rapist if they were in dire need? Would you give food to a starving Muslim? Would you give shelter to a destitute Hindu?
    Are they all not God’s children? Where is your mercy?

    You open the doors of your church to thieves, wife beaters, paedophiles (goes without saying), scoundrels, murderers and rapists but there is no room in God’s heart for homosexuals? Those entrusted with the legacy of Christ’s teachings are failing Him.
    Jesus is spinning on his cross.

  5.  

    Gombeenman,

    If you take the trouble to read me correctly I am supporting the bishop’s action in a matter against INSTITUTIONAL homosexuality such as LGBT. There is no compromise with organisations which encourage practices that God has spoken against.

    It is nothing to do with helping individuals irrespective of their religion,race or culture. We all are sinners and that is whom the Church is there for — SINNERS.

  6.  

    These people are sinners, you say.

    Who am I to judge? says your Pope.

  7.  

    iap337. My apologies. The Church is within it’s rights, indeed one could argue it is obligated to oppose INSTITUTIONAL homosexuality.
    INSTITUTIONAL can be problematic. Whether it be institutional racism or institutional child abuse or institutional slavery; institutional allow those who have become institutionalised to create an environment which serves the organisation and it’s ethos rather than the needs of individuals.
    The Church knows all about the dangers of “institutional”. The perils of men behaving badly.
    Methinks that if the men and women of LGBT enjoyed the love and respect of their fellow man in the first instance, there would be no need for an LGBT lobby. On the other hand you could argue that LGBT is a big institutional conspiracy against the will of God, but if that’s the case, is the Catholic Church’s historic and ongoing support for child sexual a users and slavery, evidence of Satanic practices in God’s back garden ? You are very brave to cast stones in the name of your God.

  8.  

    Kicking Archbishop Drennan (or Brennan) up the arse comes to mind

  9.  

    He’s a Bishop, not an Archbishop. Not that it matters.

  10.  

    Oh yeah. You’re right.

    What’s the difference between a bishop and an archbishop? Obviously it’s not a mattter of authority, since he wouldn’t resign when Diarmuid Martin said he should.

    Does an archbishop have stronger super powers than a bishop? Can he leap taller buildings? Is he able to see through thicker clothing?

  11.  

    An Archbishop is head of a larger diocese than a Bishop. It’s just a degree higher than the Bishop but they are all Bishops.

  12.  

    Bock,

    You failed to read me correctly also. I did not say that these people are sinners. I said that we all are sinners but I go on to say that that includes not only these people but also you and I and Bishop Drennan and Rev.Ian Paisley and Josef Stalin and Pope Francis and St. Francis of Assisi and so on and on. Do you understand now?

    Pope Francis asked “Who am I to judge?” And this is a good question for the good and simple reason that like me or Ian Paisley or anyone else, he is not fit to judge as he falls short of God’s righteousness himself. That is what he is getting at. But with a media that edits and misrepresents things to suit itself much is misunderstood.

    Suffice to say, Judgement is coming to all, (including clerics, you will be “happy” to know.)

  13.  

    “There is no compromise with organisations which encourage practices that God has spoken against.”

    Would you have a recording of that by any chance? No? Thought not.

    No compromise?
    Eh, well the grant was already given.

    What the likes of Martin Drennan doesn’t realise is that no one pays any heed to these relics anymore.
    I’m sure the SVP will respond to his query advising him of the same in so many words.

    Iap377, you’re really are a bad parody of bygone era of churchgoing bigots.
    We’re all sinners, grand.. now butt the fuck out of peoples’ lives and stop pontificating to them about things that are none of your business.

  14.  

    Artemis,

    There is actually a record of God’s utterance against sexual union between men. You will find it in the Books of the Law in the Bible as given to Moses, that man who spoke to God face to face as a man speaks with his friend.
    There is your recording.

    On the matter of compromise, the Church cannot mitigate or change God’s commands; it can only transmit them faithfully. There are no half measures and there is no middle road.

    What SVP did was wrong for a Catholic body and the Bishop is in the correct exercise of his office to object to what has happened and to inquire after it. There is no friendly or diplomatic ground between those who serve The Lord and the Devil.

  15.  

    Gombeenman,

    I should have described LGBT as organised homosexuality rather than as institutional because what I meant to convey was the image of a corporate body, be it a club, political party, business or whatever that works towards an agenda and embodies a mission.
    Such is the structure of the body politic of LGBT.

    Much of what you say about the Church is correct and all I can add is to tell you that the Church is full of treachery; it always has been, right from the very beginning.

  16.  

    iap337,
    I’m not sure what sort of mental issues you have, but you are clearly trolling, and not in a funny way.
    I’m sure you don’t believe the gibberish you’re spouting and you’re just looking for a reaction.. any sort of reaction.
    It’s what 2 year olds do when they’re not getting enough attention.
    They start acting up.

    Religion/the bible, fairytale created by man,goat herders in fact.
    SVP isn’t a Catholic body.
    Who people love is no one’s business when they are consenting adults.
    I’ve no further interest in debating with the voices in your head.. So we’ll leave it at that.

  17.  

    iap337, could you help me out please. What books were given to Moses?

  18.  

    Bock,

    The Ten Commandments, written on two slabs of stone by God Himself.

  19.  

    What do your commandments say about homosexuality?

    Since you insist on quoting fairytales, at least quote a relevant one.

  20.  

    Bock,

    The Ten Commandments are the fundamental groundwork upon which all the other Mosiac laws were founded. (613, I believe). God continued to speak to Moses and to outline a full code of laws for the Jews and the Book of Leviticus, the third book of Moses, chapter 18 deals with sexual misconduct, principally incest. It does not dwell on the matter of homosexuality — just a single verse in which it is condemned as an abomination and issued with the death penalty.

    Now, I might point out here that I am not particularly concerned with gays at the individual level for “who am I to judge?”. If I want to concern myself with sin, I have plenty of my own to keep me occupied. I cannot judge but I will discern.
    I was mainly defending the action of Bishop Drennan as he does have a duty to act here and SVP cannot be seen to be condoning a practice that the Church is obliged to condemn by feeding funds to organizations, religious or secular, that are simply out of bounds.

    As I already said, it is very demoralizing for donors to see this and I think that SVP would do well to bear this in mind; I feel very sure that the Protestant charities would be a lot more careful and accountable to their supporters.

  21.  

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but does Leviticus not also condemn eating shellfish as an abomination?

    How do you know which of your laws to follow and which to ignore?

  22.  

    Tis easy shur when you’re an a-la-carte Catholic.
    You pick whatever delusions you fancy.

    A little bit from this part, a little bit from that part, say God said so, and hey presto, you have the best unthinking guide for life.. And not just your own, everyone else’s too.

    “SVP cannot be seen to be condoning a practice that the Church is obliged to condemn”
    What practice is that?
    Are you talking about anal sex Iap377?

    While you’re pondering away on what these practices are, has it crossed your mind at all that not all gay men might be into that?
    Lots of heterosexual couples might be though.
    They could be ‘thinking of da children’ (they don’t want).

  23.  

    Artemis,

    The explicit details of homosexual conduct is not the point here and I would prefer to avoid any obscene conversation, if you don’t mind. The Bible defines it as “two men lying as they would with a woman” (paraphrased), and that is it. It get very little singular treatment.

    The point of this conversation is the Bishop of Galway’s action upon what can be only seen as an abuse of SVP funds. If the money was given to a Muslim organization would there be any objections, seeing that it doesn’t take much IQ to see what use those resources would be put to? If they were given to a bunny club, would the Bishop be indifferent? Those funds are essentially for the direct relief of hardship of individuals and bequests of funds to other organizations is only appropriate to those of like ethos, such as Salvation Army.
    LGBT is not an appropriate body to be helping. As a matter of interest, what use do you suppose they would put the money to? A bigger Pride Parade? Let them pay for such things out of their own pockets !

    SVP”s mission is supposed to be what was set by its founder St. Vincent De Paul about 300 years ago and if he came back today what would he see?
    If he saw this type of thing, so far departed from his original vision, I could safely say that he would request the whole operation to be disbanded as corrupt and as having outlived its usefulness.
    (You think that I am intolerant. I would not be in the running with the men of old !).

    Now, on the matter of “suit yourself” Christianity, Our Blessed Lord’s verdict on that is in the last Book of the Bible, The Revelation to St John, when He addresses the Church of Laodicea, ” …….. I spew thee out of My mouth.”

  24.  

    Well, I still don’t understand what this mean – “a practice that the Church is obliged to condemn”

    It’s difficult to understand someone talking in riddles, referencing bible passages.
    ” I spew thee out of My mouth” Need a bib for that?

    If you’re not talking about specific sexual acts, I don’t know what practice you are referring to.
    Being attracted to someone of the same sex is not a practice.
    For a lot of people sexual orientation has nothing to do with choice.
    It’s in their genetic makeup,
    In fact, scientists have identified that gay men share genetic signatures on part of the X chromosome.

    ” As a matter of interest, what use do you suppose they would put the money to?”

    Here, have a read –
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/bishop-queries-svps-45000-gift-to-gay-group-30563717.html
    “The €45,000 will only partially cover the overall cost of renting and running the centre, which it is estimated will cost €225,000 for three years..
    The centre is intended to be a safe space where LGBT people can address issues and concerns such as prejudice, isolation, loneliness, depression and the lack of opportunities to network with peers.”

    In other words, to deal with the effects of bigots such as yourself, that they have to deal with.

    Also, “A spokesman for the SVP told the Irish Independent that none of the €45,000 comes from public donations or church gate collections.”The money that has been granted comes from a specific fund, the Maureen O’Connell Fund”

  25.  

    Bock,

    I replied to you but the text knocked back on me
    I’ll give it a go again soon but I have no time left just now. Sorry.

  26.  

    Iap337 – would you please be good enough to reply to my comment. You had time to write this. Why didn’t you make it an answer to my question?

  27.  

    Perhaps an act of divine intervention Iap377.
    hallelujah..

  28.  

    I had heard of the VdP organisation and knew that they helped the poor but no more than that. I just looked at the website under the tab “What we do” It says;

    Our goal is to fight poverty in all its forms through the practical assistance to people in need.
    We offer direct, personal assistance that is non-judgemental and based on the need of the individual or family.
    In addition we provide a wide range of services for vulnerable people through our local offices, shops, resource centres, housing, daycare and holiday schemes amongst other things.

    iap337, looking at that, I would think that the words “non-judgemental” and “vunerable people” might accurately describe some people who are LGBT. Do they have another section that says they only fund Catholics or organisations that abide by Catholic rules ?

  29.  

    Iap337

    “God spoke to Moses”. Did you ever consider that Moses was suffering from hallucinations as a result of schizophrenia or other form of psychosis?.
    He wouldn’t be the only madman in history with a mindless enthusiastic following. Is it possible that one of the great religions of this World is based on the rantings of a lunatic?
    I must admit that the Christian ethos is important to me and it forms an important part of how I lead my life but I’m not stupid enough to accept as a fact, instructions and utterances attributed to “God” by those who profess to have a direct line to the great (wo)man……..Now I really need to finish off that letter to Santa.

  30.  

    It’s not a Christian ethos. It’s an ethos held by many who don’t believe in religion, and which was also adopted by Christians (at least in theory).

    Clearly, the demented, homicidal deity of Moses believed in no such ethos.

  31.  

    Hi again Bock,

    I sent a reply to you in my usual long-winded manner about 24 hours ago and it kicked back with the notice that I was posting comments too quickly and it did not appear in the thread. I then sent the apology,(25) which only took a few seconds to type and it also came up with the same notice. Upon checking the screen about 10 minutes later the apology appeared but not the original comment and now I also see that the avatar has changed. The thread also stipulates 31 comments but only 30 are present.

    Anyway, on to your question: Among the rules and regulations that the Jews recieved were a number of hygiene and dietary laws which were really only applicable to a desert nomadic people as were the Jews at the time of the Exodus.They were nothing to do with the administration of Justice and the social formation of a people.
    I know that some very Orthodox Jews still observe many of these laws at great inconvenience to themselves as the wider Gentile world around them does not support an infrastructure to facilitate them. Because things have changed since those far-off days many of these types of regulation have been relaxed by most Judeo-Christian sources. In the case of eating shellfish, many people can react with an allergy, sometimes serious, which before our age of advanced medicine might turn out to be fatal.
    The well known prohibition on unclean meats, of particular note, pork, had a dietary hygeine reason.

    One regulation which is not observed anywhere in so far as I know, is toileting and the disposal of faecal matter. In Deuteronomy, the 5th Book of the Bible, there is an instruction to take a small spade or paddle with you when you need to relieve your bowels and dig a small hole in the ground and after you have passed your poo, bury the excreatment. This is no longer applicable in a settled community where dispoal arrangments are already in place.

    All of this was to in place to maintain the Jews of the Exodus during their 40 years in the desert. —- that was it purpose at the time although Orthodox Jews persist to this day for ritual cleanness reasons.

    So,why don’t I follow the Jewish example you might say? Christ often went off at the Pharesees over this over zealous attention to all sorts of ritualistic details of the Law whilst the more important issues of Justice and Mercy were neglected. He called them a brood of vipers who would devour a widow’s house and then for a pretense make long prayers.(Sounds like some areas of Christianity also).
    Nothing seems to breed self-rightiousness like the Law, it seems, so my answer here is the classical Christian answer: Christ has fulfilled all rightiousness for us —- He is our Law and our Rightiousness.

  32.  

    Very interesting. Are you saying that you can safely ignore any Old Testament laws you think are concerned with life in the desert?

  33.  

    Black and White,

    I am principally supporting the Bishop of Galway’s action in funds from St. Vincent De Paul being given to a homosexual organization, not to needy individuals who happen to be gay. There is a need to discern.

    Arthemis,

    If Maureen O’Connell or wants to give money away to these people, let her organize it through secular agents, not SVP.
    Your link dosn’t seem to tell the full story —- I will study it again soon.

    Gombeenman, I’ll get back to you later.

  34.  

    iap337, I wasn’t referring to needy individuals who happen to be gay, I was referring to LGBT organisations that represent people who may be vulnerable because of their sexuality or other peoples attitudes towards them because of their sexuality.

    VdP do a lot of fundraising that I have seen and heard about, nowhere have I seen that monies collected would only go towards people or organisations that are approved by the CC. I would be interested to hear whether the Chief Exec agrees with the Bishop or not, then people could choose whether to support them or to direct their contributions to another organisation.

    After an article on here about John Charles McQuaid, I bought his biography and was interested to find out that the Order of Malta First Aiders should help Catholics and St John’s Protestants (according to John Charles anyway) Do you think it a good idea to go down that road again ? I thought as a country we were better educated and more open than in the 1950’s.

  35.  

    The Bishop of Galway APPEARS to have rowed back ……… telling a member of the public that “he got it badly wrong”
    Now, Black and White, that is not an apology. It is just the usual politically correct gossip press misrepresenting the situation to suit popular opinion. Who was the member of the public to whom he said this.? unnamed.
    It is clear that the Bishop is under a lot of pressure to apologise and to resign and I note that these calls for his resignation seem to be coming from outside the Church but I suspect that some of them may be coming from cowards and traitors from within.
    I think that he may well be made to apologise by his superiors and to even resign and if this happens, well then the important thing for him to remember is that he has made his stand on God’s side and like others who have gone before him, he suffers the consequences at the hands of evil men. . If the worse happens, then let him know that he has made the right stand and choosen to be friends with God rather than friends with men.
    I hope that he is an example of non-compromise to other churchmen, including the Pope, and if he is forced to resign that he does so unapologitically.

  36.  

    Have you decided to ignore my comments?

  37.  

    Bock,

    No, I am not saying that we can ignore any dictates put down by God but I do believe that Christian Churches and the Jewish Establishment can shelve certain rules and regulations that have become obselete in the present day circumstances, but we still must answer to God for it.

    The Commandments however, always stand uncompromisingly.

    Jesus said to Peter: “Whatsoever ye shall bind upon Earth shall be bound also in Heaven and whatsoever ye shall loose upon Earth shall be loosed also in Heaven”.

  38.  

    Iap337, You state that the person was unnamed yet the name was mentioned in the article that I linked, you also mention “cowards and traitors within the church” so I’d say you are on a wind up. As they say on The Apprentice, I’m Out.

  39.  

    You started with the commandments. When questioned on that, you went to the law of Moses. When questioned on that you went to Jesus. And now you’re back to the commandments, so I’m going to ask you about them. No more wriggling out of you.

    What do the commandments say about lesbians?
    What do the commandments say about gay men?
    What do the commandments say about bisexuals?
    What do the commandments say about transgendered people?

    Please answer each of these qestions separately.

  40.  

    Black and White, again,

    I note your comment on John Charles McQuaid, Archbishop of Dublin.
    NO, I don’t think that we should go down that particular road again, meaning the sectatian road. One of the mistakes of those years was that there was not better diplomatic raport with Reformation Protestants.
    However, I can assure you that if he was here today, LGBT would not be.

  41.  

    Black and White,

    I have re-read the article and I do not see where the member of the public of the is named. Please identify the paragraph where the person is named.

  42.  

    iap337, unfortunately, since you refuse to answer these straight questions, I’ll have to put a pause on your other replies until you deal with them.

  43.  

    Bock, (another comment gone astray again).

    The Commandments, the Law of Moses and Jesus of Nazareth, are all inseparable.
    The Law of Moses is based on The Ten Commandments, that is the foundation. Moses spoke with God, “face to face” we are told as a man speaks with his friend.
    Jesus, whom Moses fortold, “a prophet like me” fulfilled that Law.
    That is it in a nutshell as simply as I can make it. Do you understand now?

    Leviticus ch.48 vs, 22 condemns the practice where “two men lie together as they would with a woman”
    It is God’s law, Bock, not mine.

    Lesbians are not specifically spoken against in the Old Testament, only male homosexuality, in so far as I know. Correct me if I am wrong. The Apostle Paul includes them, however, in the New Testament.

    Now,oddly enough, male homosexuality was illegal in Victorian Britain but not female. Can you explain?

    Transgendering was unknown in Old Testament times so I cannot comment here. I have only my own personal views here which are not important.

  44.  

    Let’s stick with the commmandments, since you quote them. We can move on to Leviticus in a moment.

    Now, you’ve established that your holy book says nothing about lesbians or transgendered people.

    I’ll repeat the remaining questions:

    What do the commandments say about gay men?
    What do the commandments say about bisexuals?

  45.  

    Bock,

    I did not expect to get back to you for 24 hrs. yet but now is an random opportunity for a single comment. Before I start, there is a correction to make to comment 44. It should read chapter 18 of Leviticus, not ch. 48.

    The Ten Commandments do not dogmatically list homosexuality amongst them. The nearest approach that I could make is “Thou shalt not commit adultery”. which in the homosexual context this can only apply to a bisexual spouse of a sealed marriage.
    DOGMATICALLY, homosexuality is not given singular attention here. (However, bear in mind the Spirit of the Law spoken by Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount).

    Now, Leviticus and The Law as given to Moses: Please lead the way.

  46.  

    Very good. You confirm that the ten commandments say nothing at all about homosexuality.

    Now, moving on to the Pentateuch, we need to establish what you understand by homosexual activity.

    Can you say precisely what this is, in your view?

  47.  

    Bock,

    My understanding of homosexuality is entirely in the religious context and entirely in the context that God has defined it in The Sacred Scriptures as given to Moses.
    “Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is an abomination.” and that is it.
    (In modern parlance, it forbids sexual relationships between men. Period).

    Now, this is the only justification for the Bishop of Galway’s stance. He is not there to express his own personal views because as with my own personal views, they are not important. His office, whether he likes it or not is to put forth God’s mandate.
    Only God’s views are important.

    As you did ask for my own PERSONAL views I will express them but bear in mind this is not why I am here.
    If I was not concerned about God’s attitude my own approach would be one of complacency, you do your thing and I do mind and everything is humpy-dory and all is rosey in the garden!
    I have worked with gay people by an by and I don’t pay them much attention really. Period.

  48.  

    Gombeenman,

    Sorry for the delay.

    Can you accept that Moses performed miracles totally outside the natural order as he led the Children of Israel for 40 long years in the wilderness?

    The Exodus started after one night in Egypt in which every first born male died in that dreadful night and the only exceptions were those who had observed The Passover rite and painted the blood of the Passover lamb on their doorposts and lintels.
    The parting of the Red Sea, the swallowing of Korah and company the quails, the mana, Aaron’s rod, The Pillar of Fire by night and Cloud by day visibly leading the Children of Israel all the time and many other phenomena totally beyond any natural explanation?

    If these signs were not there to endorse the integrity of Moses then what you say could plausibly be correct but as they are there, what plausible alternatives to Divine guidance can you offer?

  49.  

    iap337 — What precisely constitutes a sexual relationship between two men?

  50.  

    Bock,

    The fine dividing line as identified in the Bible is when “men lie together as they would with womankind”.

    I would interpret this as when two men have intentional physical contact with the express purpose of getting sexual gratification from one another.

    Going a step further, it is also condemned if men should even intentionally lust after one another as Jesus spoke against sinful desire: ” If a man lusts after a woman he has already sinned with her in his heart”. The same rule applies.

    The is more to it than just observing the dogmatic letter of the law.
    The Spirit of the law is of prime importance to God. God is not fooled.

  51.  

    We can talk about imaginary deities in due course. Right now I’m trying to establish what your personal issues are.

    Can you explain how one intentionally lusts after somebody? Do you have personal experience of doing that?

    I only ask you this in passing since we still haven’t finished with the Old Testament and we will be coming back to it. We can move on to your views on Jesus later.

  52.  

    How does God feel about a bit of porn now and then, I wonder?
    I don’t suppose God is fooled if you only stumbled upon the porn briefly and squinted out of the corner of your eye, no?

    Wouldn’t ya think he’d do an update on the commandments, what with all this technology? Commandments 2.0 or something.

  53.  

    I want to nail this God stuff right now.

    This is not a debate based on anyone’s God delusion. People are free to believe anything they want but this discussion will not be based on anyone’s private beliefs in a deity.

    It will be confined to verifiable facts, insofar as they exist, and insofar as they influenced the bishop’s outburst.

    The only verifiable fact we have at the moment is that a collection of writings exists, whose origins are disputed but which the bishop uses as a basis for his actions. Those writings suggest that one character in the myth, Moses, is a paranoid schizophrenic who imagined voices in his head and that the principal voice is an inconsistent psychopathic murderer that he took to be his god. By the power of his personality, Moses persuaded his cult followers to accept that belief and they then went on to murder countless men after invading their lands, and to rape their women.

    That’s it. No more and no less.

    We will not be playing anyone’s game of pretending that their pet god exists.

    Any attempt to justify actions by assuming the existence of a supernatural being are irrelevant to this conversation and will be disregarded.

  54.  

    Artemis,

    I think that you can answer your own question far better than I could.

  55.  

    Bock, (writer in comment 52),

    Returning to the centeral theme of this conversation again, The Bishop of Galway acted because of his belief that someday he will stand in Judgement before Almighty God answering for his time in office as Bishop of Galway. Now I know that you do not believe that but you must understand that he does and that is why he addressed the matter of a donation to LGBT. He regards LGBT as a non-christian organazation which is promoting an ethos contrary to Christian teaching and with which St. Vincent De Paul should have no dealings.

    Adding my own contention, I personally believe that LGBT is not only non-christian but also anti-christian. I do not mean it is nessessarly anti-christian by intention, but in so far as I can intrepret its doctrine and mission it is so.
    I shall investigate further.

    Do you want me to continue to answer the questions of comment (52) as the writer of comment (54) seems adamant to correct the course of the conversation.

  56.  

    Iap377
    “Bock, (writer in comment 52)….
    Do you want me to continue to answer the questions of comment (52) as the writer of comment (54) seems adamant to correct the course of the conversation.”

    I believe there’s only one Bock.. Maker of BTR, The one true Bock.
    I believe the Bock who created comment 52, was also the Bock of comment 54.

    I believe you should stop speaking for God, and the bishop and go to the happy place…Stop listening to those voices.

  57.  

    iap337 — I’m not interested in what the bishop believes. I’m interested in how he acted. As you must know, actions should not be justified by beliefs alone, because that is what has led to oppression throughout history.

    Besides, the bishop now accepts that he was wrong.

  58.  

    iap 377- As a matter of interest do you think those that are LGBT choose their sexual orientation or do you believe they are born that way?

  59.  

    He’s gone to check Leviticus. He’ll be back with the answer to that any moment Tommy.

  60.  

    Bock,

    The Bishop acted BECAUSE of what he believes. There is no other motive. If you cannot understand that then you understand nothing about the saga.

    Beliefs may not justify actions to others, especially those who do not share kindred beliefs, but this is the whole principal of personal responsibility.

    You also make your own decisions based upon what are your own personal beliefs even if they affect the much wider community around you and you are personally responsible for them.

    This is also the reason why many corporate bodies often insist upon decisions being made according to stipulated protocols to override this.

    Tommy,
    It is very late for me now so I hope to get to you presently —– assuming that Bock hasn’t lost patience with me before then. I do try his patience, I know. Perhaps I am training him to be a saint.

  61.  

    iap337 — You are quite wrong about how I make decisions.

    I make my good decisions based on solid evidence-based judgement and my bad decisions based on irrational assumptions. Thankfully, I don’t make any decisions based on insane, unsupported beliefs in the supernatural which is what you say the bishop did in this instance.

  62.  

    @iap337 No problem but I am curious as to your answer. I find people like yourself, the Bishop Of Galway, Westboro Baptist church, Taliban etc etc infuriating when they start interfering with the freedom of others but trying to understand the logic behind the actions of your kind does also fascinate me. I look forward to your reply.

  63.  

    “The Bishop acted BECAUSE of what he believes. There is no other motive”

    Now you have it Iap377.

    Religious beliefs justifying bigotry/violence/wars since time immemorial.

  64.  

    Tommy,

    This is just a short courtesy note which I hope Bock allows through just for a single communication.

    I sent an answer to you at about half past one PM yesterday but I see it still has not arrived so it seems that I finally broke his patience, after all and I find it too frustrating to take the trouble write at length just to have it lost. This is the forth post lost.
    However, he is the administrator for this site and I am a guest so I must accept the terms of engagement.

    So on the hope that you see this I bid you au revoir and I do apologise for keeping you waiting.

    Regards, iap337.

  65.  

    No comments have been blocked.

  66.  

    Hi iap337….here is the question I asked you again

    As a matter of interest do you think those that are LGBT choose their sexual orientation or do you believe they are born that way?

    Yes I think they they re born that way

    or

    No I believe they are LGBT out of choice

    Either of the above is grand, and since you ve been assured that comments are not being blocked I d really appreciate it you took the 30 seconds or so to get back to me. Thanks.

  67.  

    He’s gone to check Deuteronomy, he’ll have the answer to that any minute now.
    In the meantime, it’s Bock’s fault..

  68.  

    Tommy,

    I have not forgotten you but I can find a few minutes at this hour to write very briefly.

    Of the two alternatives that you offer, I suppose that the second choice is the NEAREST of the two. I most certainly reject the contention of natural biological inheritance.

    I hope to write a longer account to you in maybe 12 to 24 hrs. time if I am not asleep,to justify my stance, if you are interested, based on personal experience.

    I cannot promise at this time, but I do hope to return to you within a reasonable time.

  69.  

    Artemis,

    Thou art a rare noodle.

  70.  

    You “most certainly reject the contention of natural biological inheritance”.

    Have you shared your research with medical science?

  71.  

    Thank you iap337..I look forward to reading the justification of your stance based on personal experience.

  72.  

    And you’re an impasta Iap377.

    Do hurry back now..Penne for your thoughts.

  73.  

    With reference to the distinction between a bishop and an archbishop, in the Western church the correct symbol of a bishop is a crook and that of an archbishop is a double cross. I hope that makes things clear.

    I can’t be bothered with all this out-of-context, literalistic trolling through Leviticus, so that iap can polish his/her fatwas.

  74.  

    There’s been a surprising absence of lightly-disguised bigotry in the last few days.

  75.  

    Have you noticed a seasonal rise and fall, or maybe a monthly one? In particular, do such comments peak on First Fridays?

  76.  

    No, Bock,

    I did not share my “research” with medical science
    I did say that “I most certainly reject the contention of natural biological inheritance”, but I also said “I suppose ….. ”
    Research and personal supposition are a long way apart !

    Now, decision making: You seem to be implying some sort of infallibity based on your reasoning of logic. (So I interpret).
    Logical decisions can often come to rue whilst intusive decisions can succeed. It is just the way things work out and decisions made in Faith have been known to confound the wise.

    Scientific devices have even worked on faulty reasoning and logic and so on.

  77.  

    Now, to return to the main thread for the umteenth time, the subject matter here is the Bishop of Galway’s protest at the abuse of St. Vincent De Paul funds.

    LGBT is an anti-christian organization in its mission and doctrine even though its membership may include gay Christians misled enough to be in it, just as I could well imagine Christians in the Ku Klux Klan who are deluded enough to be there.

    If St.Vincent De Paul is no longer a Catholic institution then I think that they should be very clear about this as many people think that they are, seeing that they carry the name of the Catholic founder saint.
    Let them change their name and then maybe at least they will be honest. and then donors may deposit their alms with another who can be more reliably trusted, such as Salvation Army.

    As long as SVP present as Catholic, then the Bishop has every good justification in objecting and it is regretable that he has been made to apologise. In this he has to obey as he has a priestly vow of obedience.
    Don’t hand it to me that he is apologising of his own volition —- that has to be proven to me because one of the great enemies of the Church at the present time is political correctness, the use of which LGBT is very adept.

    As I said to you before, the Church is full of treachery, it always has been, right from the very beginning.
    (Archbishop J.C.McQuaid).

  78.  

    Why don’t you have the honesty to admit you’re just a vicious old bigot instead of trying to wrap your hatred up in this fake – reasonable guff?

  79.  

    I am not a bigot but I am intolerent, yes, very, and rightly so. There is a difference.

    There is nothing so cruel in its final outcome as the toleration of evil. (Paraphrased from George Bernard Shaw, “Saint Joan”).

  80.  

    Of course you’re a bigot. Have the guts to admit it. You detest and fear everything that doesn’t fit in with your limited, narrow understanding of the world.

  81.  

    “I’m not a bigot but.. ”
    Ah. Now we have it.

    “I’m not a racist but..”
    “I’m not a misogynist but.. ”

    Lesson 101 in identifying what people really mean.. It’s all in the proclaiming what they’re not, and the ‘but’.

    “I’m not a troll, but.. ” Come on, finish the rest Iap.

  82.  

    “WHO’S THAT TRIP-TRAPPING ACROSS MY BRIDGE?”
    [The big, bad troll in ‘Billy-Goat Gruff’.]

  83.  

    For ‘bridge’ read ‘immutably fixed dogmatic assertion’ with an undercurrent of ‘I am always right’. Oh dear, iap, isn’t that the Sin of Pride? Never mind, bridges can be broken by repeatedly rhythmic rapping – and replaced by really useful ones that enable people to reach over and love one another unconditionally, or does that idea frighten you too much, iap, so you wrap yourself in a cloak of intolerance?

  84.  

    Hi iap337….You still haven t answered my question, Id really appreciate it if you did Im sure the truth would be extremely illuminating to anyone who is confused by your ancient stance.

    As a matter of interest do you think those that are LGBT choose their sexual orientation or do you believe they are born that way?

    Yes I think they they re born that way

    or

    No I believe they are LGBT out of choice

  85.  

    Tommy,

    I am sorry to keep you waiting but I was having second thoughts about rejoining this thread.
    If you look back along the dialogue you will see that I was getting roasted as a bigot and a troll and even an impasta ! (Artemis — where does he get them from?) and then Bock and Michael start wondering where I am (75, onwards), and now you inquiring after me.

    So, against my better judgment I will return by unpopular demand.

    Now, as this post is right off the main thread altogether, before I start please understand that I don’t know much about homosexuality and I have not undertaken any formal study of the subject so everything is just my own interpretation and impressions of what I chanced to see at various times.

    With your questions regarding the genesis of the condition, I cannot agree on there being a genetic factor and I have to say that I believe it to be a choice, although not necessary a free choice.
    Genes, in so far as I know, do not dictate the psychology of an individual DIRECTLY but only the physical aspects. Being very cynical here, I am afraid that I have to regard the genetic theory as more an evasion of personal responsibility for one’s decisions.

    I would like to be clear here on the difference between LBGT and people who just happen to be gay. LBGT is a formed society or organization with a definite programme to accomplish and it is quite a powerful lobby today and is made up of mostly gays and some non-gays who may well have ulterior reasons for being there.

    Now, one of the factors that puts it at loggerheads with the Christian Churches, (indeed almost any religious body) is the failure to recognize that there is something WRONG with homosexuality. LBGT as a mission is to PROMOTE the gay status and this I believe to be a fundamental and disastrous error. (I expect to be shouted down here).
    Sorry, but I am afraid that you cannot have your sinful cake and eat it.

    So, what do I think that LGBT should be?

    Let us take an example of another secular organization which helps and councils people with a specific kind of problem.
    Let us look at Alcoholics Anonymous (AA)

    With AA, the mission here recognizes at the onset that alcoholism is WRONG, and the objective is to draw people away from the booze and back to a meaningful life free of drink.
    There is no “cure” for alcoholism and the aim is to HELP the person back onto the tracks and in so far as is possible to leave the drink behind.

    The first detail that a person is brought face to face with when they first join an AA meeting is to recognize that there is something wrong in life against which they have no power.
    This is brought forcefully home to the person when he/she stands on a rostrum and announces in front of other alcoholics:
    “My name is iap,(or whatever) and I am an alcoholic and I need help” and once this admission is home to the person themselves, the road to deliverance is started. This admission in front of others brings them subjectively face to face with the problem.

    It is my belief that homosexuality is in much the same mould. There is essentially something WRONG and it needs to be addressed and as with an AA meeting the individual needs to be forcefully brought face to face with this. Perhaps they should get on a rostrum in front of others of the same and likewise proclaim:
    “My name is iap,(or whatever) and I am a homosexual and I need help”. and as with the AA counterpart, once this is realized, the road to deliverance is started.

    I could seriously doubt the integrity of LGBT to address this issue competently as I could foresee them just making people worse rather than better in a more or less equivalent situation of AA pouring out the porter. “Lets talk about this over a drink !”

    Now, Tommy, I know that what I have said, is not going to be applauded and I can see myself being booed out of the place as the big daddy of all the homophobes (Strangely, I haven’t added that name to my collection yet ! ) but I have endeavored very hard to answer your enquiry honestly.

  86.  

    There is no comparison between being an alcoholic and being gay.
    Being a gay doesn’t harm you, or anyone around you.
    Being an alcoholic does.

    Since you mentioned addiction Iap, here’s a quote that might help you –

    “The feeling of righteousness is the core mood alteration among religious addicts. Religious addiction is a massive problem in our society. It may be the most pernicious of all addictions because it’s so hard for a person to break his delusion and denial.
    Condemning others as bad or sinful is a way to feel righteous. Such a feeling is a powerful mood alteration and can become highly addictive”

  87.  

    Meant to say, “being gay”, not “being a gay”.

  88.  

    Oh dear. God love you, iap, but you are confused.

    I didn’t wonder where you were. It was pretty obvious.

    Your third paragraph says it all, really…”I don’t know much about homosexuality [but]…my own interpretation [makes me or those who have tutored me infallible] and impressions [can be read into something I don’t understand]”.

    As for your third paragraph, speaking as one who spent a considerable portion of his career (I’m 72) working in mental health, not that being LGBT is an illness, genetics and their interaction with other factors is no place for marching in wearing hobnailed boots or for stridency from those “don’t know much about [whatever is under discussion] but know what they [dis]like”.

    Para 5 is a really good example of a first-rate paranoid delusion: I congratulate you; was it your intention to create a self-parody? I know of no LGBT conspiracy. Neither do I know of any anti – LGBT conspiracy per se. Never attribute malice if an adequate explanation is provided by stupidity (or plain ignorance). As I understand the matter, people use the ascription as a rather lazy form of shorthand. No doubt groups form together for mutual support but so what? I know many ‘B’s and ‘T’s who feel the ‘L’s and ‘G’s don’t accept their particular way of experiencing life and say stridently, just like you, that they’re in denial. This area isn’t, I suggest, about ontology or even epistemology but is axiomatic and phenomenological, attempting to describe the ordinary experience of ordinary people, not monsters. (If you don’t understand the words, Fr Google will explain them to you.)

    I quite agree that you cannot have your sinful cake and eat it. Your pride in condemning those you have clearly acknowledged you do not understand appals this bystander, not least because of what you are doing to yourself as well as when I think of the people who have killed or otherwise injured themselves as a result of witch-hunts started and/or supported by people like you.

    I’m not going to get into the AA steps. They are religious-based and as such to bring them in here is tautologous. What I am going to say to you is that I am happily married (to a female) with two children and a grand-child. I am also a practising Christian of a type you would probably approve of. BTW Artemis is female in Greek mythology. Now we truly are off-topic.

    Your paper manifests enthusiasm and commitment but lacks breadth, depth and citations. Grade: D.

  89.  

    There’s a useful working definition of psychosis: holding false fixed ideas, impervious to reason.

    I think our sex-obsessed iap fits this definition nicely.

  90.  

    I reckon he’s just deluded and a bit frustrated.
    Nothing an unrelenting dominatrix couldn’t fix.

    She’d bate the troll right out of him..

  91.  

    Jacob Bronowski was a fine man, unburdened by the sort of hatreds that animate trolls such as iap.

    He might have said it best:

    The wish to hurt, the momentary intoxication with pain, is the loophole through which the pervert climbs into the minds of ordinary men.

  92.  

    ‘ before I start please understand that I don’t know much about homosexuality and I have not undertaken any formal study of the subject’

    I suggest you do Iap…I suggest you do. Your last post was disgusting and horrifying. While you’re at it check out the prevalence of self harm and suicide amongst those struggling with their sexuality as a result of you and your kind who fearful of themselves persecute others. I don t pray Iap but if I did it would be for any child of yours born with ‘the condition’. Despicable and shocking and perhaps even a hate crime. What do others here think, do you believe some of Iap s rhetoric could be classified as such. .

  93.  

    “Despicable and shocking and perhaps even a hate crime. What do others here think, do you believe some of Iap s rhetoric could be classified as such. ”

    No, I don’t.

    Tommy, he already stated his opinion before you pushed him again.
    So you’re hardly shocked and horrified.

    He’s responsible for witch hunts, suicides and self harm, for his opinion that ye keep asking him about.

    I thought it was obviously he’s trolling anyway.

  94.  

    @Artimes

    ‘Tommy, he already stated his opinion before you pushed him again.
    So you’re hardly shocked and horrified. ‘

    Firstly he hadn’t stated his opinion, he was being vague and evasive so I continued pressing him.

    Secondly I wasn’t shocked and horrified by his stance on LGBT but by his description of it as a ‘condition’ and the way he compared it to alcoholism. Weren’t you?

    ‘I thought it was obviously he’s trolling anyway.’

    Aren t you the smart lad…Why did you engage with him so?

  95.  

    No, I wasn’t.
    He’s a troll.
    They’re masochists.. he’s getting his jollies at your shock and horror.
    I couldn’t be less shocked to be honest.. meh wouldn’t cover it.

  96.  

    You were/are engaging with him, if not what else are you doing by responding to his posts.

    I don t believe he is a troll, I believe he is deluded but that doesn t make his stance on LGBT any less sinister or harmful to those struggling with their sexuality.

    Unlike you I don’t mind read others so I don’t know how he gets his jollies and I’m still horrified that he would refer to being gay as a ‘condition’ akin to alcoholism and unlike you also I hope I never become desensitized to bigotry and oppression of minorities. The fact that people such as Iap exist clearly means more needs to be done in order to educate children about cultural difference, preferably in schools as part of the standard curriculum. If we are not horrified by Iap s rhetoric and take a ‘meh’ stance these changes will never occur.

  97.  

    the commandments are not numbered. but from the list of “instructions” given to moses, they should really be called the 15 commandments. the 2nd nicene council allowed for the creation and displaying of “holy images”. they also allowed worship of these images. not true worship however as that was reserved for the divine nature. in short the commandments were edited in 787ad. i imagine that a lot of money was to made from the manufacture and sale of statues and paintings, and the good council wanted to get in on the act.
    as regards any mention of homosexuality in the commandments, exodus ch20 ,verse 17, clearly states that you shall not covert your neighbours ass.

  98.  

    Bock,

    I know that I am just looking for trouble putting a foot in here again but the matter is merited.

    I refer back to your comment at post no. 6 in which you posed to me Pope Francis’ statement in reference to homosexuality “Who am I to judge? ” (Now, note well that you presented this as a complete sentence) I gave an answer,which I still stand by, in post no.12.

    What he did in fact say was: “Who am I to judge them if they are seeking the Lord in good faith”. — a VASTLY different meaning.

    He was giving an interview to the media aboard a Papal from Rio De Janeiro to Rome on World Youth Day in Rio.

    Quite disgracefully, the media filtered his statement and presented it to the public as you quoted it.

    Ref: An column written by George Weigel entitled “The Catholic Difference” recovered from an Australian Publication, “Catholic Weekly” (it is online).
    (George Weigel is a senior fellow of Ethics and Public Policy in Washington. D.C. His column is distributed by the Denver Catholic Register, newspaper of the archdiocese of Denver, Colorado. USA.

  99.  

    Bock,

    I should have said a “Papal Flight” and I forgot to close the bracket at the end of the post.

    Can you edit minor typing errors like that or is that against policy?

    My fault — I should not be typing when I am so tired!!

  100.  

    iap377, I dont think you are a troll

    it worries me that people like you exist though!

  101.  

    there is one belief that I personally try to apply to myself & its attributated to jesus of nazerath … ” do onto others as you would have done to you ” there’s the answer in all its simplicity, don’t just kick em up the arse…. Fuck em up the arse as thats what they’ve been doing all along. over 100 comments on this topic and most of them generated by that breast thumping mea culpa cunt. I’d be afraid that I’d lose all control of my temper as soon as he opened his holy hole in my company.

  102.  

    JESUS IS A HOMOPHOBE ?
    I hail from Boston, USA. I was not aware that Jesus was a Homophobe. After reading all of the above, I find he was. I am not sure if the Bishop’s enlightenment of me in this matter is a good one. I somehow fear it is not.

  103.  

    Who said Jesus is a homophobe?

    Apart from anything else, Jesus is dead, but nobody here said he was a homophobe.

  104.  

    IAP DID ! in fact he said every right thinking catholic was obliged to be one, not sure if he mentioned bostonians though… Daniel, you’re reading too much into his demented drivel..

  105.  

    IAP is a fucking lunatic. Usually blocked for refusing to answer straight questions. Sorry, I thought you were talking about rational human beings.

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