Solving the Vaccination Dilemma

The enemy within

By now, only a very small group of lunatics, crystal-healing fools and complete idiots could possibly claim that vaccination is a bad thing, but you know what? There should be a place in this world for lunatics, crystal-healing fools and complete idiots.

On the one hand, it’s true that unvaccinated children pose a fatal risk to the children of sane people, and it’s true that they also pose a fatal risk to old people, sick people and those with compromised immune systems.

But on the other hand, we have to respect the rights of complete idiots and therefore we need some sort of compromise, so here’s the situation.

Let’s not have a society where lunatics, crystal-healing fools and complete idiots are excluded.

Instead, let’s offer the anti-vax maniacs who threaten our children’s lives a simple choice.  If you choose to have your children vaccinated, welcome to our society.  If not, you’ll have to live within a guarded compound created especially for anti-vaccination fools, where you can’t endanger the rest of us.

It seems fair enough to me.  You’re free to make your own decisions, however irrational, but don’t inflict the consequences of your stupid decisions on our children.  If you want to leave the compound and mix with the rest of us, all you have to do is get a vaccination.

What’s wrong with that idea?

37 thoughts on “Solving the Vaccination Dilemma

  1. Jon Stewart did a piece on this during the week, measles is becoming a problem in the US.

  2. Imagine, in this country you have to show a baptismal cert to get a kid into school, but not a vaccination cert.

  3. So if your kids are vaccinated against measles, mumps, etc, what is there to fear from those who choose to not vaccinate ?

  4. Until they’re old enough to be vaccinated very small children and new-borns rely on ‘herd-immunity’, ie the fact that everyone else has already been immunised, thus reducing the incubation and spread of the disease.
    In a fully vaccinated community (say 95-100% vaccine uptake), the chances that an unvaccinated person has come into contact with and are carrying the disease is very low. However if the vaccination level in the community is poor, say below 85%, there is a much higher chance that anyone you meet could have come in contact with the disease, be an incubator, and be transmitting it through the community to immuno-compromised people (vaccinated or not), pregnant women (to their foetus), and of course babies who have not yet been vaccinated.
    vaccination does not work in a community unless a minimum proportion of the community has received the vaccination.
    basically, not vaccinating your kids turns them into potential foci of infection, with the potential to infect and possibly kill unborn babies, small children, the old, the sick and infirm.

  5. Leftwinger — because some people, including small children, can’t be vaccinated. And because nothing is perfect, including vaccination. There will always be a proportion of people who don’t develop immunity after being vaccinated. And because some classes of people are extremely vulnerable. A minimum prportion of the population needs to be vaccinated in order to achieve herd immunity.

  6. Well, the last mass vaccination in this country ended in a total disaster. Approx 60 known cases of narcolepsy have been credited with the swine flu vaccine “Pandemrix” this was 2009. Is there any evidence to back up the “herd immunity” theory ? Also check out the “hpv” vaccination program introduced in Ireland in 2010 for girls in first year of secondary school. This drug has already been withdrawn in Japan because of adverse reaction. There is plenty of evidence available to question the safety of this vaccine but yet it is still being made available to 12 year old girls in Irish schools ??
    There is so much negative press regarding drug companies and their products that it is no wonder there is a fall off in the uptake of the more well known vaccinations.

  7. Do you reckon polio, smallpox, TB, measles and mumps just sort of disappeared by accident?

    It was a complete fluke that they were eradicated at the same time vaccination was introduced? A coincidence?

  8. So some vaccines work. And for every one that works there is one that causes problems. The evidence is there. People are right to be cautious.

  9. Look, I’ll tell you what. I’m not here to debate things that have been established beyond reasonable doubt. That’s why, for instance, I won’t debate with you the effects of gravity, or the existence of visible light. And that’s why I won’t waste my time or yours debating the effectiveness of vaccination.

    Those discussions are more suited to another forum. The old Bock would have been far more direct.

  10. I suppose some folk prefer herd mentality. You can take your chances with jabbing your kids with whatever shot the drug companies throw at you….your choice. Beyond reasonable doubt ??? Dont think so.

  11. Herd immunity is a term widely used. It has nothing to do with the herd mentality you’re displaying, based on whatever anti-scientific guff you’re being peddled.

    As I asked earlier, how do you think measles, mumps, smallpox, TB and mumps disappeared? Was it by magic?

    Idiots refusing to vaccinate need to keep themselves away from the rest of us. Let them confine their stupidity to a compound where they can’t endanger our kids, our old and our sick people.

  12. Fair enough . . . you keep on believing the guff your being peddled and i’ll keep on believing mine.

  13. Leftwinger, I am getting the distinct impression that you are being deliberately obtuse in relation to vaccinations.

    You are making all sorts of spurious and factually inaccurate claims.

    In your opening post you state,

    “So if your kids are vaccinated against measles, mumps, etc, what is there to fear from those who choose to not vaccinate ?”

    Here you fail to grasp the point that many people either due to age or infirmity cannot be vaccinated. People who refuse vaccinations put this cohort of the population at risk. Furthermore, by allowing large numbers of unvaccinated people to become infected, major risks the vaccinated public can ensue due to the ability of some viruses to mutate thus exposing everyone to a new strain of the virus.

    You then go on to confidently state,

    “Well, the last mass vaccination in this country ended in a total disaster…”


    You go on to talk about 60 cases of narcolepsy. Check your facts. Those cases occurred in Finland (not “in this country”) with a further much smaller cluster occurring in Sweden. No cases have been confirmed in Ireland or the UK. The vaccination ‘Pandemrix’ has been discontinued worldwide as a result.

    Why did this happen?

    Because of the huge fears of a worldwide H1N1 pandemic in 2009, vaccine trials were fast tracked by governments. Unfortunately, due to the fact that it is impossible to test in numbers of greater than one thousand volunteers over such a short period it was deemed safe to conduct vaccinations throughout the general public. As a result, one in approximately 15,000 of those who received the vaccination went on to develop this condition.

    I myself contracted the N1H1 (Swine-Flu) virus in January 2010 and became very seriously ill for a period of 10 days. Had I known this could happen I would have gladly taken the Pandemrix vaccine. My physician informed me at the time that, had I been15 years older (65), the chances were that I would have died.

    While it is true that no vaccine is 100% without some risk, most adverse reactions are uncommon and relatively minor. These risks would include mild irritation at the site of inoculation or low-grade fever in more rare cases. More serious complications can occur where the subject has a severely compromised immune systems or undiagnosed illnesses such as the advanced stages of HIV. When vaccination programmes are cleared for introduction to the general public thay are closely monitored my government bodies for any signs of adverse reactions.

    Andrew Wakefield’s fraudulent linking of the MMR vaccine with the onset of autism caused all sorts of hysteria about immunization of every kind. Stories abound about not just autism but also Sudden Infant Death Syndrome, mercury poisoning spontaneous miscarriages, etc amongst those who have some kind of perceived axe to grind with so-called ‘Big Pharma’. ALL of these claims are false, yet gullible individuals and those with a vested interest in ‘alternative’ medicine persist in propagating these views.

    Let me ask you a hypothetical question. You go to see a cardiologist who informs you that one of your arteries leading to your heart is 96% blocked and that if you don’t have a stent implanted you have a 75% chance of a massive heart attack within six months. You ask what the risks are and he informs you that you have a one in 5,000 chance of you dying due to the effects of the anesthetic.

    What do you do?

  14. “What do you do?” Eh, maybe go a bit silly and do all the things you wanted to do?
    But it’ll be your choice.

    If people don’t want their children to have vaccinations, they shouldn’t be obliged to do so in my opinion, as much as we might think they’re being idiotic. In saying that, education on vaccinations and the possible risks of developing diseases as well as the possible adverse effects of vaccinations should be available.
    Otherwise we have a police state.

  15. When people choose not to vaccinate, they endanger other people’s children. That might be their right, but it also needs to have consequences.

  16. Niall , , my facts are in fact, correct ! No poppycock. Do some research . . .you could start here. which states “The European Medicines Agency approved Pandemrix but later announced that it was not suitable for children due to the link between the jab and narcolepsy.

    It was announced in February that representatives of thousands of families across Europe affected by narcolepsy after Pandemrix jabs were to meet with the EU Health Commissioner to discuss a response to the situation.

    The Irish support group SOUND has around 60 members who were all affected by narcolepsy after receiving Pandemrix. Some families in Ireland have initiated legal action against the State over its use of the vaccine.”

    I am glad you recovered from the swine flu. I heard it was very nasty. My eldest child (17) tells me that there is a pupil in her school who has narcolepsy as a result of the pandemrix vaccination. She now needs special attention and her life has been destroyed as a result.

  17. “That might be their right, but it also needs to have consequences.”
    Like what? Tis a slippery slope though isn’t it?

    What if in sometime in the future, eugenics to have a more desired population, higher IQ, no down syndrome etc. is required and you have no right to refuse?

  18. Bock,,,as far as i am aware, only smallpox has been classified as being eradicated thanks to vaccination and that is fantastic.. All the other diseases you mention are still active.. . .this answer ok for you ?

  19. “The discussion is about vaccination, not eugenics. Let’s keep it on track.”

    No it’s not. The discussion is how to deal with people who choose for whatever reason to refuse to get vaccinated or refuse to have their children vaccinated. I’m keeping it very on track.

    Now Bock, answer my question.. Now goddamnit.

  20. I understand that you might want it to be about the things you choose, but you don’t get to make those decisions.

    This discussion is not about eugenics.

  21. I don’t want to discuss eugenics.. I used that for comparative reasons only.
    My point is, people should have the choice.. no matter how much we disagree and as much information made available to them on the benefits/adverse risks with vaccines.

  22. I don’t have any myself, but I suppose yeah.
    There’s incurable diseases and plenty of things that endanger your children.. I dunno, it’s a tough one Bock.. but I don’t believe in policing these things. You’d want to encourage people towards vaccinations with information. IMO.

  23. Bock . . . there is irrefutable evidence available that recent vaccination programs have gone badly wrong. Would you still be happy to give your children pandemrix or subject them to “hpv” vaccination. ??

  24. The Pandemix treatment was flawed. Are you extrapolating from that to suggest that all vaccines are flawed? If you are, that’s a major logical fail.

    Can you explain what this has to do with measles vaccination.

    Hint: this is a question.

  25. OK Leltwinger, I stand corrected when I said that “no cases had been confirmed in Ireland or the UK. I did however state that Pandemrix’s flaws were only exposed by large dosages provided to the general public.

    The MMR vacine has been available since the early 1970s and over 500 hundred of million doses have been dispensed. Do you have an issue with this vaccine, one that prevents measles, mumps and rubella?

    Secondly, please inform us as to what issues you have found exist with the HPV vaccines?

  26. Being the father of 3 & granddad to 6 I am very concerned but find that there is a lot of conflicting (mis ?) information out there. One fact (?) that seems to be missed/ignored by all & sundry on this post is that even after getting the jabs people still get measles…… so… ?

  27. Leftwinger would have us return to the good old days of Polio-crippled children in leg calipers getting the iron lung.
    In 1940s Ireland, about 500 children died every year of vaccine preventable diseases, – measles, whooping cough, diphtheria, tuberculosis and polio. Today’s death rate figure for these illnesses is zero.
    Even if you have not vaccinated your kids (as is your right), the fact that they have not been killed or disfigured by such preventable diseases is largely due to the fact that everyone else in your community HAS vaccinated their children.
    There are of course issues with certain non-routine vaccines. But i think it might be useful to draw the distinction between those and the routine vaccinations administered to children to prevent serious and highly contagious fatal childhood diseases that have have plagued mankind since early times. The prevention of childhood mortality should not be an opt-in/opt-out choice when its success is predicated on everyone’s participation.
    Opting out of such vaccinations means you get to sit back and enjoy the benefits derived from other people eradicating the disease on your behalf, while simultaneously undermining their efforts.

  28. Norman, there’s no conflicting evidence — just scaremongering.

    One person in every hundred fails to develop immunity. That’s just a fact of nature. Therefore even though the vaccine is 99% effective, there will always be vulnerable vaccinated people.

    Other vulnerable groups include young children and people whose immune systems are weakened due to age or illness.

    These are the people the anti-vaccination lobby puts at risk, in addition to its own children.

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