Europe’s refugee crisis

A tragedy of biblical dimensions

Is there anything to like about the sight of Hungarian police tear-gassing babies?

If there is, I have yet to work out what, and yet here we have strong, fit young policemen punching, clubbing and manhandling women, children and old people as if they were criminals when in reality they comply with all international criteria guaranteeing their rights as refugees.  Punching, clubbing and abusing desperate civilians fleeing from war zones with their children, their weak, their sick and their elderly.

Tear-gassing babies and people in wheelchairs.

huhungary police syria refugee

This is the Hungary that we accepted into the European Union eleven years ago, and perhaps it’s the Hungary we should consider freezing back out, unless we think the cold, unfeeling values championed by Viktor Orban are the values we, as a society, believe should represent us and what we stand for.

I must confess I find it vile to think that people like Orban would take it on himself to close the  borders of the European Union on my behalf. I find it despicable that the Hungarians and the Slovakians would be talking about Christianity on my behalf. I find it more than disturbing that countries like Poland, Hungary and Slovakia would pontificate about anything on my behalf when their emigrants who live here are doing so well and finding such a welcome. I find it particularly irritating because, when I ask my Hungarian, Slovakian and Polish acquaintances about their plans for the future, not one of them has any intention of going home.

Why? Because they all know full well that the new governments of their countries post 1989 are simply the old apparatchiks still holding on to power, as apparatchiks do everywhere.

And that’s why I don’t want any lectures from apparatchiks like Viktor Orban.

It’s not as though Hungary has a great claim to moral authority since this, after all, is the country that exported 400,000 Jews to Auschwitz in 1944. And this is the country from which 200,000 people fled in 1956 as refugees to countries all over Europe, including to Ireland where many of them settled even though their reception by the authorities was far from warm.

All the more reason why a Hungarian government might understand the need for compassion towards refugees, unless that government comes from the same ideological vein that expelled its refugees in the first place, the same vein that sent all those Jews to Auschwitz, and the same outlook that found it expedient to collaborate with Stalin after the war for the sake of political survival.

It’s quite an achievement to make Serbia look tolerant but that’s what Viktor Orban’s regime has managed to achieve with its razor-wire fence and its Game of Thrones gate on the E75 motorway at Horgos.  The Serbian prime minister, Aleksandar Vucic, who once said If you kill one Serb, we will kill 100 Muslims, leapt at the opportunity to be outraged by Hungary’s treatment of these refugees, most of whom — though not all — happen to be Muslim.

What are we to make of it when Aleksandar Vucic expresses horror at the border treatment of refugees by the Hungarian authorities? When a man who once played chess with the butcher of Srebrenica somehow has moral authority, you know things are bad and yet there you have it. Instead of passing through Horgos, the desperate refugees must swing West, towards Slavonia where, hardly more than twenty years ago the Yugoslav People’s Army laid waste to to the wheatfields of East Croatia. Where they demolished the  city of Vukovar until hardly a stone was left upon a stone. Where murderers like Arkan’s Tigers followed the JNA, popping grenades into the cellars where civilians cowered in fear, with the approval of people like Aleksander Vucic.

That happened less than a quarter century past, and now we have a flood of terrified people wandering into the minefields left behind by that savage internecine conflict, a war that the people of former Yugoslavia now realise should never have been allowed to happen.

Too late.

Yesterday, the Croats said they would accept the desperate refugees turned away by Orban’s border thugs. Today they fell into line and agreed the same heartless policy.

Today, the Slovenians have said they’ll accept the refugees and help them as they pass through Croatia.

Maybe they will and maybe they won’t but what will happen if the refugees can’t pass from Slovenia to Austria? Where will they go and what will they do?

This is a tragedy of biblical dimensions, largely created by European and American interests.

We can’t walk away from this.

80 thoughts on “Europe’s refugee crisis

  1. Here’s another way to write your opening lines:

    Is there anything to like about the sight of belligerent illegal migrants hurling missiles at the policemen of the country they demand to enter?

    If there is, I have yet to work out what, and yet here we have strong, fit young men throwing missiles, setting fires and yelling ‘allahu akbar’, military-age young men, apparently unwilling to fight at home, but well able to fight in someone else’s country. As they have passed through many safe countries on their way to Hungary, they comply with none of the criteria guaranteeing refugee status. Punching, clubbing and abusing the very people whose country they demand to enter. In other times, with clearer minds, this would be seen as the invasion that it is.

    Tossing away water and food given to them by the same people they are abusing.

  2. I’ll leave Bock to tackle Paul’s argument above, but I would just like to extend his summary of recent history in the region: Go back further and you’ll find that the Hungarians’ ancestors came to their current territory in Europe roughly 1,000 years ago in waves of violent migrations from the Urals so Orban’s rhetoric about becoming an ethnic minority in Europe, and the barbed wire border to repel “invaders” from the East, is ironic to say the least.

  3. If Paul had made an argument I’d tackle it but he gave himself away with the last sentence. Like a dog leaping at a bone, he just couldn’t help himself.

  4. Nah, just using very emotive language, same as yourself. There are two sides to this story, but it seems very clear you’ve little interest in anything that doesn’t slot right into your own crazy worldview.

  5. Bock and Miriam.Be careful what you wish forM Muslims are causing massive problems in every western country as soon as their numbers rise. Just look at England Belgium Sweden now the rape capital of the world. Theirs a great reason why Australia patrols it’s borders.Miriam u might be well intentioned but white women cannot travel alone in a lot of western countries with a large Muslim population.Be careful what you wish for

  6. You seem to be under the illusion that this is Facebook or Twitter where you can promote any kind of xenophobic horseshit you want. It is not.

    This is a moderated site and if you are considered to be just another Muslim-hater, or any other sort of phobic for that matter, you will be blocked without apology or explanation.

    Your regurgitation of the lie about rape in Sweden proves you are exactly that. Some days it’s Denmark, others it’s Norway. RAcists don’t mind.

  7. Noel, do you really think I’d rock up to Mecca in a pork bikini?

    The treatment of women in Islamist countries is deplorable. The treatment of refugees, who happen to be Muslim, in Europe is deplorable. Why add another layer of oppression to women fleeing Syria? Oh right – you’re trying to excuse your prejudice by pointing out their co-religionists’ prejudice. And as usual, women end up worst off.

  8. No Miriam i have no doubt u wouldn’t rock up to Mecca in your bikini what concerns me is u wouldn’t go downtown Bradford or Brussels in one either. Why do u mention women fleeing Syria there is very few women or children just young men who won’t fight for their own country but are very eager to fight western police officers.Your prejudice seems only aimed at the police and Israel maybe

  9. Noel, there was no fighting with police until the people reached the wall at Hungary. I would also throw rocks with frustration when confronted with such a thing, as I suspect you would. This anti-Muslim spin is going nowhere, and incidentally, drop the irrelevant nonsense about Israel and stop accusing people of prejudice. You’re not qualified to accused others of bias.

  10. @ Noel, where are you getting your information regarding Sweden? I have lived here for the best part of 21 years. I have also literally been top to bottom travelling and working in a professional capacity throughout Scandinavia and you are dangerously inaccurate. I know a lot about this country and have been a teacher to many different nationalities and I can tell you that you are very seriously misguided.

  11. I didn’t think that there is still so much stupidity prevalent, as I read in Noel’s and Paul’s comment. But there you go – no, there goes civilised Ireland, the one with the thousand welcomes or such like.

    What happens at the southeastern borders of Europe is despicable. This is not my Europe. The one line Merkel uttered, so far the only one I can agree with, was: “If we have to start to apologize for showing a friendly face in an emergency then this is not my country.” She asked the German people this question.

    If the Pauls and Noels of this world come up with stupid stuff, prejudices, pure racism and ignorance and force others to apologize for showing empathy then they should go into hiding, because the friendly faces in this world might change their minds and strike back.
    As understandably the refugees in Hungary do. You see, it’s not only about finding a safe place and a loaf of bread, it’s about dignity, too. Rob people of their dignity and you’ll find rage.

    I travelled in Arab countries (I’m a woman by the way) and found nothing but hospitality, curiosity and friendliness. There were, of course, the odd arseholes, but so there are some in Irish villages and towns. Irish Catholic males should check their attitude towards women before they complain about Muslims.

  12. You are a powerful writer Bock…We need to save as many of these people as we can…it is Biblical. Please keep writing about this. We need to understand and do the right thing…

  13. @ Noel.. Again(!) First of all, you very obviously have no idea what you are talking about. I really do suggest that you take a long hard look at yourself and think about the eventualities that life may throw at you. You quite obviously know nothing about Sweden so as Bock correctly points out you are indeed a spreader of lies.

  14. Noel, u have grate entatainment supervalu.

    Sorry, I mean, your comments are quite puerile. You have no opinion to argue with, just silly bonmots (or rather malmots, if there is word like that).
    Is it you Donald T.?

    I can imagine that it’s hard to think with just two braincells, but you do know how to google? Then do it and find at least studies which might support your rants (which might be a very hard job, but might enlighten two lonely braincells).

    Mind, studies are things which are usually done by people who know what they are doing. A study is not something you’ve heard in a pub or read in a rag.

  15. Ehm, did you actually answer to my comments?
    Bock’s last comment was the question, if you live in Sweden.
    You didn’t answer.
    Show his colours with a question like that?

    Do you actually read who is what commenting?
    Apparently not.
    Just shows …

  16. Stunning.. Just stunning (one handclap) . Noel, remember me? I’m over here… The one that called your bluff earlier. Don’t mind anybody else, I’m calling you racist, because… Well.. You are. I have worked a company for 21 years in Sweden and taught quite a few people from different ethnic backgrounds in a language which is not my native tongue. I am exposing you for being a liar and a troll. You know absolutely nothing about this country, in fact what you said is scurrilous and untrue. This is my real name… above… Why don’t you reveal your real name?…go on.. I challenge you. I have had just about enough of you and your bilge spewing like. I knew some people like you growing up, you know what happened them? Some of them grew up, you belong to the other group Bock has the right to anonymity as he chairs this forum… But you pal, are a different bag of periwinkles altogether.

  17. Noel, Answer the question you were asked. Do you live in Sweden?

    You will not be commenting further until you respond. All you need to say is Yes or No. Anything else will not be published.

  18. So come on Bock, how many people does Ireland take in? Where will they be housed? Which Irish people will not be housed as a result? Who pays for it all? How do you integrate these people into our society? When does the flow of people into Ireland stop? What are the other Muslim countries in the region doing about this? (Nothing by the way) Is someone racist for questioning this whole inflow? (No they are not, but you seem to be one of these leftie do Gooders who falls for all the media lies)

    Predictably, you will either delete this comment or accuse me of racism. Back to you Bock……

  19. One thing at a time, Dave.

    First Noel needs to say if he lives in Sweden. Then he needs to either retract or support with research the slurs he passed against Muslims. As a new visitor to this site, you might not be aware that there’s a very clearly laid out comments policy which you can feel free to read at your convenience.

    Now, this post is not about the mechanics of Ireland’s contribution to helping the refugee crisis. When we have a post on that subject, by all means feel free to ask how many people Ireland will take in, and all the other questions that don’t relate to the current subject matter.

    Finally, people are never blocked for disagreeing, but they will always be blocked for trolling, which is what Noel foolishly thinks he can get away with. Anyone who deliberately refuses to engage with a direct question will be blocked until they respond. In other words, Dave, random commenters don’t control what gets published on this site, much though that might annoy them. Such people would be far more comfortable commenting on Identity Ireland’s Facebook page.

    As you can see, you have neither been blocked nor accused of racism, since you have respected the commenting policy of this site. By all means disagree with my opinions, but trolling and racism will not be accepted. Please refer to the comments policy if you have any confusion on this.

    (By the way, your mask slipped a little when you said Leftie do-gooders).

  20. these migrants are running wild throughout europe.youtube muslims in sweeden and see how this religion have brought sweeden to its knees.

  21. Maybe some of you learned contributors can answer a couple of very simple questions. Why are all these “Muslim” Refugees fleeing to a mostly Christian Europe. I know if something terrible happened in Ireland. The last place I would be fleeing to is a Muslim state. And secondly why are the other arab nations not cueing up to take there Muslim brothers and sisters in their time of need. Saudi could be chartering every A 380 in the world to take them to Saudi from Europe and save them from the infidels of the west. I know if I was a Muslin I would much rather live in Mecca than Mulhuddart. I don’t know anyone anyone from Saudi but I do know a man from the UAE and he told me “Saudi Arabia does not do refugees” end of story, and I can see their point. Imagine the thought of a load of dirty filthy hungry and needy people on the streets of Riyadh. Perish the thought

  22. Baker

    You seem to have made two points. Correct me if I misunderstand you.

    You seem perplexed that Muslims would flee to what you call a mostly Christian Europe because the last place you personally would flee to is a Muslim state. Like you, I would never flee to Saudi Arabia, but then again, nobody in their right mind would do so.

    The answer is in the second question you posed. As you pointed out, no sane person would flee to the likes of Saudi Arabia, because it’s a state run by demented religious extremists. Clearly the Syrian refugees share your horror of extreme Muslim states like Saudi Arabia.

    The refugees from Syria and Iraq are normal people who happen to be Muslims. They don’t fit the extreme stereotype you seem to have bought into.

    Perhaps, before commenting further, you might make the effort to find out the difference between a normal person and a religious extremist. I suggest you start by looking at the lunatics of the American Bible belt and asking yourself if they represent all Christians.

  23. There’s some dumb mudderf******s posting on this thread.

    Hopefully a more diverse gene pool, helped by the refugees will increase the intelligence levels of the locals, over time.

  24. I lived in Saudi Arabia, downtown, not in a walled compound. There are good and bad same as every in the world. The typical Arab has a lot in common with the typical Irish person.

    I have come to the conclusion that those most opposed to the arrival of Syrians to these shores have never worked or lived abroad. If they work here they are greatly affected by the loudmouths in their local pub or in the work place canteen. Their ideal of travel is an annual excursion to Spain for two weeks of cheap beer and roast dinners served in an Oirish pub with access to British soccer. They complain about migrants, conveniently forgetting the millions of migrants that Ireland has exported, myself included.
    We are a wealthy country, underpopulated, try running a small business here and ask where you customers come from. We have oodles of space, get these people integrated, working and contributing to our society.

  25. What I find interesting is the way three or four people who have never commented before somehow magically appear when discussing this subject.

  26. It is a very controversial subject for most people after all. Some are simply scared, that their probably fragile status quo is threatened, some don’t know how to think beyond their own nose tip. Some are simply dead stupid, even in currently saintly Germany, where Neonazis burn down refugee accommodation (“thankfully” so far empty ones).

    But having the audacity to convey eejity opinions or rehashed crap from the pub or the rags without thinking on a blog which I conceive as relatively enlightened is a different matter.

    Maybe they confuse it with the usual anonymous social media (see Gerard’s reference to a youtube thingy about Muslims in Sweden – really?), maybe they are just slobs googling “Syrian migrants” and came up with Bock the Robber and thought, great, let’s troll.

    By the way, I hate the word migrant in this connection. These people are mostly refugees, fleeing from unbearable circumstances, not migrants who just move house to another country.

    And as No.8 above mentioned, think about what immigrants (refugees or migrants) can do for a host country.

    In the 60s Germany actively invited people from then impoverished countries (Turkey, Yugoslavia, Italy, Spain et. al.) because there weren’t enough workers to support the German industry. Without these people there wouldn’t have been a “Wirtschaftswunder”, the rise of Germany to a rich and powerful nation.

    Of course there was the usual response of the usual suspects, mostly those without brains and with, mostly, the intention not to bother with work or so-called menial work (“they take our jobs and our women”) and of course not all the immigrants were nice people. The concept of eejity is universal, after all.

    I agree with No.8 again in that certain Irish people (or any other Western nation) never travelled beyond getting drunk and having the craic in a cheap and sunny country.
    I shudder to think of the German equivalent who do just the same in Mallorca or elsewhere, thinking that the locals have to accommodate their kind of fun and ignoring all the local rules of decency – but at the same time expecting that foreigners have to assimilate to German “Leitkultur”, whatever that is considering that Germany is a mixture of cultures for centuries.

    Meanwhile the situation for the refugees is getting worse, especially on the Balkans. The indignity of it all angers me, but mostly makes me feeling sad and helpless.

    Imbeciles posting utterly unfounded rubbish don’t help with that feeling. So if you have nothing substantial to say or can’t substantiate your opionions, just shut up.

  27. All you thick stupid progressive bleeding heart know it all’s. I care, love, have kids love life etc. Etc., but i still think this mass invitation of muslims without question of peoples whom in the bajirlrity openly proclaim their contempt of western liberal values is wreckless idiotic folly.

    Pity the people are dying now. People are always dying,when you have a blood thirst crazy insane death cult like islam ruling most of the middle east what is expected Read the fucking Kor’an . It is evil beyond belief.
    17 of top 20 countrues in the world are muslim. Stop your shit talk of western intervention.
    Fuck you arrogant assholes belittling anyone who might question your hair brained dogma.
    Bock, i know first hand what islam means for women, children and babies in those societies. You do not see what danger is seeping in but that does not mean that danger is not there.
    I am utterly shocked at the progressive, liberal feminist’s screaming bloody murder to invite hundreds of thousands of muslim men into their society whom would happily beat the head off of them for even uttering the thought of these same liberal views.
    go figure.
    I am no troll and will debate anyone on these issues.

    Bock and all the media progressive mouth faces are the blind stupid morons screaming for the evil major of this wotld.
    Shame on you.

  28. You’re no troll?

    Everything you said screams Troll.

    Judging by this comment, you are completely incapable of debating anything.

    Go away.

  29. Please, Bock, don’t ever delete this post from kiddie loving francis devane!
    I’d love to pick up every so-called argument he has and shred it to pieces.
    But it’s late and I have to postpone it.

    In brief: Ye know, francis, I’m “superior”, feministly and fabulously so, as mentioned further above. And I actually read the Qur’an as I did the bible. I challenge you to make a literal, scientific, spirituel, social and historic comparison.

    Read you soon!

  30. 430,000 people of foreign nationality make up our population, almost 20%. At 112,000 the Poles are the largest followed by British. Have they stolen our jobs and taken our women? If they have we’re being awfully quiet about it.

    Ireland is also home to approximately 40,000 Muslims. I live in Dublin, with the majority of the Muslim population. There is a whole heap of bullshit going around about Christian values.

    Most Christian churches in Europe died a death after the world wars and only quite recently here in Ireland.

    I know a Lebanese family very well along with their Lebanese friends and also some Egyptians and honestly, they are great people. Well educated and cultured and who also possess a great sense of humour.

    Eating Mamma W’s Lebanese cuisine whilest sipping a fine Beqaa Valley red is to die and go to heaven…

  31. If these people open restaurants they’ll only sell foreign muck, not proper Irish food like pizza or thai red curry. I for one will not go to eat hummus, kabsa, falafel etc.

  32. OK, instead of projecting liberal, Western beliefs on these Muslim migrants (“they’re just like you and me” – but probably even better), let’s look at what they actually think about these little issues.

    Source: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

    **Support for sharia law**
    Afghanistan: 99%
    Iraq: 91%
    Pakistan: 84%
    Bangladesh: 82%

    **Should sharia law apply to non-Muslims?**
    Middle-East and North Africa: 49%

    **Is it necessary to believe in God to be a moral person?**
    Middle-East and North Africa: 91%

    **Is homosexuality wrong?**
    Middle-East and North Africa: 93%

    **Is sex outside marriage wrong?**
    Middle-East and North Africa: 94%

    **Is drinking alcohol wrong?**
    Middle-East and North Africa: 84%

    **A wife must obey her husband**
    Middle-East and North Africa: 87%

    **Women have a right to divorce**
    Middle-East and North Africa: 33%

    **Sons and daughters should have equal inheritance rights**
    Middle-East and North Africa: 25%

    **Prefer democracy over strong leader**
    Middle-East and North Africa: 55%

    **Religious leaders should have political influence**
    Middle-East and North Africa: 65%

    **Belief in evolution**
    Middle-East and North Africa: 58%

    **Western music movies and TV hurt morality**
    Middle-East and North Africa: 51%

    **Are honour killings justifiable?**
    Afghanistan: 73%
    Iraq: 91%
    Pakistan: 69%
    Bangladesh: 65%

    **Sharia is the revealed word of God**
    Afghanistan: 73%
    Iraq: 91%
    Pakistan: 69%
    Bangladesh: 65%

    **Support for corporal punishments for crimes such as theft**
    Afghanistan: 81%
    Iraq: 91%
    Pakistan: 56%
    Bangladesh: 50%

    **Support for stoning as punishment for adultery**
    Afghanistan: 85%
    Iraq: 91%
    Pakistan: 58%
    Bangladesh: 55%

    **Support for death penalty for leaving Islam**
    Afghanistan: 79%
    Iraq: 42%
    Pakistan: 76%
    Bangladesh: 44%

    **Support for polygamy**
    Afghanistan: 27%
    Iraq: 46%
    Pakistan: 32%
    Bangladesh: 32%

    **Only the faith of Islam can lead a person to heaven**
    Afghanistan: n/a
    Iraq: 95%
    Pakistan: 92%
    Bangladesh: 88%

    **Converting others to Islam is a religious duty**
    Afghanistan: 96%
    Iraq: 66%
    Pakistan: 85%
    Bangladesh: 69%

    **Some or a lot of knowledge about Christianity**
    Afghanistan: n/a
    Iraq: 11%
    Pakistan: 6%
    Bangladesh: 10%

    **Comfortable with daughter marrying a Christian**
    Afghanistan: n/a
    Iraq: 4%
    Pakistan: 3%
    Bangladesh: 10%

    ****Bonus info****

    **Male/female literacy rates**
    Afghanistan: 43%/13%
    Bangladesh: 62%/53%
    Eritrea: 80% overall
    Iraq: 89%/74%
    Pakistan: 67%/42%
    Syria: 86%/74%

    I submit that these people are absolutely not like you and me. They have completely alien belief systems. Another little fact is that every (that’s every) country in Europe with a population of more than a couple thousand Muslims, has experienced, or has thwarted, Muslim terror plots. It is manifestly true that a Muslim population cannot exist without giving rise to terror. These are extremely politically incorrect statements, but does that mean they shouldn’t be uttered? Islam is an ideology, not a race. Christianity is also an ideology, albeit not so all-encompassing. Indian Hindus, who are genetically identical to Pakistani Muslims, do not give rise to terrorists, at least not like Pakistan does. It is grossly disingenuous to call opposition to an ideology, racist.

  33. @ Gerard, … I am presently looking out my kitchen window and for the life of me cannot see any Muslims running amok … Maybe it happens at night? No, I work a lot at night and haven’t seen them then either, oh by the way, I don’t live in “sweeden ” but I do most certainly live in Sweden. What on earth are you talking about? Have you ever even set foot in this country? … No wait a minute, I’ve solved it. It happens on YouTube! Aha!! There is another country called “sweeden ” that exists down some sort of black hole. Now, back to looking out my window…

  34. @ Gerard… Wait!!! I see two Muslims running wild as we speak!… Ah, no… Sorry. They’re running for a bus. Ah well, back to the window…

  35. “OK, instead of projecting liberal, Western beliefs on these Muslim migrants (“they’re just like you and me” – but probably even better), let’s look at what they actually think about these little issues.

    Source: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

    **Support for sharia law** Crazy
    Afghanistan: 99%
    Iraq: 91%
    Pakistan: 84%
    Bangladesh: 82%

    **Should sharia law apply to non-Muslims?**
    Middle-East and North Africa: 49% Crazy

    **Is it necessary to believe in God to be a moral person?**
    Middle-East and North Africa: 91%. Similar in Christianity?

    **Is homosexuality wrong?**
    Middle-East and North Africa: 93% similar in Christianity?

    **Is sex outside marriage wrong?**
    Middle-East and North Africa: 94% similar in Christianity?

    **Is drinking alcohol wrong?**
    Middle-East and North Africa: 84% plenty here share that view.

    **A wife must obey her husband**
    Middle-East and North Africa: 87% Christian wedding vows?

    **Women have a right to divorce**
    Middle-East and North Africa: 33% How long is divorce available to anyone in Ireland?

    **Sons and daughters should have equal inheritance rights**
    Middle-East and North Africa: 25% not changed here that long ago

    **Prefer democracy over strong leader**
    Middle-East and North Africa: 55% how many look to church for guidance, regardless of voting rights?

    **Religious leaders should have political influence**
    Middle-East and North Africa: 65% pope is head of Vatican state

    **Belief in evolution**
    Middle-East and North Africa: 58% vast majority of Irish are Catholic, cc does not teach evolution

    **Western music movies and TV hurt morality**
    Middle-East and North Africa: 51% no answer

    **Are honour killings justifiable?** crazy
    Afghanistan: 73%
    Iraq: 91%
    Pakistan: 69%
    Bangladesh: 65%

    **Sharia is the revealed word of God** isn’t the bible
    Afghanistan: 73%
    Iraq: 91%
    Pakistan: 69%
    Bangladesh: 65%

    **Support for corporal punishments for crimes such as theft**
    Afghanistan: 81%
    Iraq: 91%
    Pakistan: 56%
    Bangladesh: 50% plenty of supporters here I’d say

    **Support for stoning as punishment for adultery** crazy
    Afghanistan: 85%
    Iraq: 91%
    Pakistan: 58%
    Bangladesh: 55%

    **Support for death penalty for leaving Islam** crazy
    Afghanistan: 79%
    Iraq: 42%
    Pakistan: 76%
    Bangladesh: 44%

    **Support for polygamy**. Mormons?
    Afghanistan: 27%
    Iraq: 46%
    Pakistan: 32%
    Bangladesh: 32%

    **Only the faith of Islam can lead a person to heaven**
    Afghanistan: n/a
    Iraq: 95%
    Pakistan: 92%
    Bangladesh: 88% where do Jews and Christians stand on this?

    **Converting others to Islam is a religious duty** Mormons?
    Afghanistan: 96%
    Iraq: 66%
    Pakistan: 85%
    Bangladesh: 69%

    **Some or a lot of knowledge about Christianity** how many Christians have similar knowledge of Islam?
    Afghanistan: n/a
    Iraq: 11%
    Pakistan: 6%
    Bangladesh: 10%

    **Comfortable with daughter marrying a Christian**. Daughter marrying Muslim, Jew etc?
    Afghanistan: n/a
    Iraq: 4%
    Pakistan: 3%
    Bangladesh: 10%

  36. All of these quotes were taken outside the context of the original article, which is why I didn’t bother replying to the comment.

    Selective quotes can be used to demonstrate anything.

  37. Wow, No. 8, they were probably the weakest attempts at manufacturing moral equivalence, and pure unthinking whataboutery, that I’ve ever read. Cringe-making. Maybe when there’s an exodus of Christians into the Middle East you can ask the “similar in Christianity?” nonsense.

    Muslims are coming to EUROPE with those beliefs, not the other way round. Mormons? No divorce for anyone? But what about…? Fuck me. Bone chilling stats presented in black and white, and you respond with tripe like “isn’t the bible”. No, it’s not. If you have to ask that question, you know NOTHING.

  38. “All of these quotes were taken outside the context of the original article, which is why I didn’t bother replying to the comment.

    Selective quotes can be used to demonstrate anything.”

    Is that in relation to the Pew poll? If so, can you please elaborate as to how these stats, as presented, are different to what’s stated in the full article, given they are copied verbatim? I presented the vast majority of the findings of the poll and omitted only those few that aren’t extremely disturbing. Is there some other incontrovertible proof I should present, or I’m pissing against the wind here?

  39. “These people” as you call them range from Indonesians to Pakistanis to Arabs to Europeans. Syria and Iraq as you know are secular societies.

    I don’t propose to make your list the centrepoint of the debate. People should read the original article where they will be able to see the context of the figures and judge for themselves.

  40. You’re right again Paul, I know nothing.

    Why not go and live in a predominantly muslim country before you make up your mind. What is your first hand experience of living / working with muslims who have the opions that you posted?

  41. Paul omitted to quote the entire set of statistics, preferring to cherry-pick the ones favourable to his viewpoint, while also omitting the context and the commentary in the original article, complete with caveats.

    Faced with that level of expertise, of course you know nothing.

  42. Bock, come on now. Don’t even try to pretend that you read the article that you’re saying I cherry picked from. There were a few stats that I left out that weren’t truly awful. Should I edit the post and just include the full 20,000 words from the original article, so I can’t be accused of cherry picking?

    And you cherry picked this incident of the Hungarian police tear gassing some people and made an entire article about it! As if that has been the experience of every poor unfortunate who has landed in Europe! Talk about double standards.

    No. 8 – do you not believe the poll? Do you not believe the words of the Muslims who responded? If not, why not? Why would I need to live in a Muslim country to find out their beliefs, when I have a scientific poll?

  43. All becomes clear, Paul. You thought nobody would read the article.

    On the Sharia survey question, please explain why you omitted the figures for Bosnia, Albania, Turkey, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan,Azerbaijan and Lebanon.

  44. No conspiracy Bock, but I still don’t for a moment believe you read the 15 (long) pages I liked to. I did, however.

    I thought it was obvious, but I used the stats for those countries (Iraq, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Pakistan) because those are the countries whose citizens are pouring into Europe. Syria, unfortunately, wasn’t included in the poll. Why would I include those other countries, when they’re not the ones streaming in? I was countering the narrative that “these people” (the same phrase was used by numerous people on this page, but you criticised only me for it) are the same as you and me, when they clearly are not.

  45. @ Paul “Bone chilling stats presented in black and white, and you respond with tripe like “isn’t the bible”. No, it’s not. If you have to ask that question, you know NOTHING.”

    Seeing as how you believe everything you read, well least what suits your position. http://www.christianlibrary.org/authors/Grady_Scott/bible-02.htm

    “why would I want to live in a Muslim country to find out their beliefs, when I have a scientific poll?”

    Oh I don’t know, objectivity, open mind, first hand experience etc. You know, all the things you don’t have

  46. Paul,

    I don’t care what you believe. That’s your own business.

    However, you have already admitted that you selectively chose the worst-looking figures.

    That means you have lost all credibility.

  47. No, Bock, you made that part up. I chose the numbers for the countries making up the bulk of the people coming in to Europe. Your ultra left bias is blinding you.

  48. Eh, Muslims hold that their book is the literal, verbatim word of their god, and that not a letter of it can ever be changed, or adapted. Kind of locks you in to a medieval mindset. Only a handful of Christians believe that about the Bible, and in any case, when was the last time a bomber blew up a bus and proclaimed it for Jesus? You’ll be thinking about that for a while. When was the last time a Muslim did it for Allah? Every day.

  49. Who said this?

    “I presented the vast majority of the findings of the poll and omitted only those few that aren’t extremely disturbing ,,,”

  50. And I asked you if I should copy and paste the entire article? By the way, do the few I left out somehow negate the awfulness of the ones I quoted? That some of them have liberal views on abortion makes the 90%+ who believe death by stoning as the appropriate punishment for adultery, acceptable? I don’t see your point.

  51. Paul, I didn’t make that part up. It’s exactly what you said. I refer you to your comment 57.

    If you’re accusing me of falsifying your words, you can leave now.

    Are you accusing me of making up something you didn’t say?

  52. Fine, I omitted the not so terrible ones.

    Now, how does that mean I have lost all credibility? I did link to the article, you know. Please answer my questions in #65.

  53. Are you now agreeing that I did not make up what you said?

    While we’re discussing your list, you don’t ask the questions.

  54. I will now post a series of extracts from the Pew Research Center report that somehow escaped Paul’s notice.

    The following appears to be the most important one, in my view, but I intend to post several more in individual comments.

    Muslims around the world strongly reject violence in the name of Islam.

  55. @42 No8 above. You mention Irish cuisine as “proper Irish food like pizza or thai red curry.” You contrast this with falafel, hummous and other Middle East cuisine that you consider less desirable (non-kosher?) If Italian and Thai cooking families have become more Irish than the Irish during the past hundred years or more, might it be possible that Arab restauranteurs and their families will blend into our mixed gene pool too in due course?

  56. Good. You now concede that your accusation was false.

    As to your question, let me explain something. You don’t decide how this website is run. Once you put up your list, you left yourself open to scrutiny, and that scrutiny is far from over.

    When it has ended, you may put questions, but until then, forget it.

  57. The following is another extract from the Pew Research Center report that Paul somehow overlooked.

    … in countries where Islam is not legally favored, roughly a third or fewer Muslims say sharia should be the law of the land.

  58. This is yet another extract that Paul unfortunately overlooked.

    Given a choice between a leader with a strong hand or a democratic system of government, most Muslims choose democracy.

  59. Somehow, inexplicably, the following passage in the report also escaped Paul’s atttention.

    Muslims who favor making sharia the law of the land generally agree that the requirements of Islam should apply only to Muslims.

  60. Nope, it’s there in black and white in my quote:

    **Prefer democracy over strong leader**
    Middle-East and North Africa: 55%

    The point being, it’s a small number.

  61. Paul, you were given the freedom to cherry-pick from your list. In return you chose to throw silly Fox News insults at people.

    You will now please remain quiet while we pick over the nonsense you put before us.

    If you don’t, you will be tuned down for a while.

  62. Well fine, but your last 2 comments state that I conveniently ignored those stats, when both of them are in my comment.

  63. Paul
    you are really good in derailing a subject from the original post.

    Reading it again it was about the plight of refugees, right? Not about belief systems. REFUGEES! (Sorry for shouting, but you seem not to listen otherwise), refugees are people fleeing from something. Look at Irish history, and not only that.
    In this case they are fleeing from Middle Eastern Muslim atrocities – not to bring same such into Western Europe. Why do you think they are running away?

    In Germany we have sadly the term of the “intellectual nazi”, those who are cunning or bright enough to find seemingly plausible arguments for their cause. They are the dangerous ones, not the brainless skinheads. Goebbels, if you know about history, was one of them.

    I salute Bock to argue with you, though you don’t even have the cunning brains, or any brains to convince or win your arguments. Sorry to hurt your misguided confidence.

    But you see with surveys it always depends how to formulate a question, which populace you chose and which you can get to answer in the first place. And who did the survey why and for whom.

    That’s what I’ve learned not only for my M.A. in sociology and political science, but more so in life. Like, you can prove by surveys and statistics that it’s the stork who brings the babies … All a question what outcome you want to get.

    All you care about is your own fear of diversity. And as mentioned by other posters your ignorance of other cultures.

    By the way (was it poster Nr. 8 ?), coming from multicultural Berlin, sometimes in the middle of nowhere in the West of Ireland I crave baclava, falafel and tabouleh – and the good old döner mit scharfe sauce … typical German dishes, or what?

    Baclava .. I want now! (not balaclava, Paul darling!)

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